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View Poll Results: What do you want fixed for the Batman reboot? (multiple votes allowed)
More impressive fight scenes 110 59.14%
"World's greatest detective" better displayed 133 71.51%
More imaginative villains/concepts explored 81 43.55%
More iconic imagery (Gotham/Batmobile/etc) 72 38.71%
Sidekicks included (Robin, Nightwing, Oracle) 65 34.95%
Full extent of Batman's various training better implied (flashbacks?) 32 17.20%
No growling Bat-voice 66 35.48%
Bruce is the mask, Batman is the true face 49 26.34%
Fix the suit (NO RUBBER) 46 24.73%
Fix the suit (BUT USING RUBBER AGAIN) 13 6.99%
No love interest 25 13.44%
No Lucius Fox (Batman does all the brainy work) 30 16.13%
Batman is a more shadowy and mysterious figure 63 33.87%
More BTAS influence 59 31.72%
More Arkham Asylum influence 69 37.10%
More comic book influence (70's-current) 28 15.05%
More memorable theme music 29 15.59%
Moar prep-time!!! (Batman is always a few steps ahead) 37 19.89%
All of the above 9 4.84%
other (please specify below) 14 7.53%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 186. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-19-2013, 04:24 PM   #251
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

We'll see. He may not do it because he's directing a movie. It might be better if Nolan produces (basically just his name is on future DC films) and Goyer is like a creative consultant and somebody else writes the script.

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Old 03-19-2013, 04:32 PM   #252
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Del Toro should be writing and directing it. But, that's probably just wishful thinking since he'll be working on the Dark Justice League.

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Old 03-19-2013, 04:40 PM   #253
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Yeah i don't think he'll do it. It depends on what kind of style the movie will be in though. I honestly can't see it being that stylistic with its sci-fi, which is why i don't see Del Toro being a good fit.

Not a fan of his movies anyhow.

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:12 PM   #254
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Yeah i don't think he'll do it. It depends on what kind of style the movie will be in though. I honestly can't see it being that stylistic with its sci-fi, which is why i don't see Del Toro being a good fit.

Not a fan of his movies anyhow.

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:13 PM   #255
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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They both have a legacy but Burtons first movie has aged more than any superhero movie ive ever seen outside of the comic book movies that came before it.
Don't you see the connection there? It seems older than the newer comicbook movies. But not the ones that are older.

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Nolans will continue to inspire me until the day I die.
Respectfully, I think you're being quite naive. The Nolan's movies pseudo-realistic/cod-philosophical style has been around since the beginning of the 00's, and it will seem just as dated in ten years time as Burton's Art Deco Noir has been in twenty.

That doesn't detract from the 'quality' of either, but the Nolan Batmovies are already extremely easy to satirize, which doesn't bode especially well for their timelessness.

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:19 PM   #256
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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They both have a legacy but Burtons first movie has aged more than any superhero movie ive ever seen outside of the comic book movies that came before it.

It's still a good comic book movie. It's fun. At least it steps all over the 90s Bat-sequels. But the screenplay has never been great. It's very generic. The production design is awesome and the main theme is good but Prince dates this movie in a horrible way. And i'm an 80s Prince fan.

The batmobile? That's iconic, yes. The bat symbol with the yellow? Yep. Gotham? Sure. But these are just stylistic things, and at the end of the day it means nothing to me. Substance means more and Burton doesn't know what that word means. He never did.

But it's far from timeless as a whole. I don't see how it is. The storytelling and dialogue was never anything special for me. There's the odd line by Keaton and Nicholson that will always be memorable but the rest is rubbish. The actors cast outside Jack and Michael are also atrocious.

Like I said, it's fun and ill always remember it when thinking of my childhood but it's just a popcorn movie from the 80s to me, like Avengers is from the 2010's.

I'll give an example. Terminator 2 was released 2 years after Batman and Jurassic Park just 2 years after that. The difference is unreal in how I can watch JP and be like "Those dinosaurs still hold up today, that's timeless!". It's a HUGE difference to Batman.

Nolans will continue to inspire me until the day I die.
I don't think Nolan's Batman movies are that deep.

I like the symbolism of almost every villain being a different version of Satan and the 9-11 allegory in TDK was interesting to some extent but if you really dug at the symbolism for deeper meaning there wouldn't be much there.

Overall it probably comes off as pretentious to anyone with high intellect who studies symbolism in movies and literature.


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Old 03-19-2013, 05:23 PM   #257
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

I don't know if it is even 'pretentious'. On the whole, it is just 'middlebrow'. It doesn't really aspire to anymore than most action-thrillers. It has a minimalist soundtrack, everyone wears a suit, and the jokes are rare and painful; but this is a very synthetic way of trying to dumb down 'teh themes' for people who don't care or notice anyway.

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:39 PM   #258
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Mass media is working at its best when it can manage to be low brow, middle brow and high brow at the same time, IMO.

Eh, whatever. I dislike being told things "aren't there" when I've spent many hours of my life reading and writing about the films and their themes, and so have many other people with far more knowledge of film and literature than myself.

Downplaying the thematic strengths of the films just seems like a way at snubbing one's nose at people who are like "OMG TDK IS TEH DEEPEST MOVIE EVER". And it's also snubbing one's nose at a lot of the inherent value of the core concepts at play in the Batman mythos, period.

I just feel like it's modern mythology, similar to Star Wars. Old themes and ideas portrayed in a fresh way. It's not meant to balance the budget or solve terrorism.

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Old 03-19-2013, 07:00 PM   #259
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

We're all just talking one opinion over the other now. Someone who didn't like Nolan's trilogy to begin with(Messiah) and others who did enjoy Nolan's trilogy from the beginning(such as Shauner).

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Old 03-19-2013, 07:09 PM   #260
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

I like TDK and TDKR reasonably enough.

I just don't think the NOlan trilogy is the end-all, be-all of Batman like some Nolan fans constantly suggest.

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Old 03-19-2013, 07:11 PM   #261
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Who's saying it's the end-all, be-all of Batman? It can be a memorable piece of media pertaining to Batman and still not be the best thing about the character.

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Old 03-19-2013, 07:16 PM   #262
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

Well just in this thread a few people have said there's nothing that can be improved on or they should stop making Batman movies because no one will top Nolan.

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Old 03-19-2013, 09:17 PM   #263
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

I've only read one post that said no one should make anymore Batman films, period.

If you want to share with me the posts of who's said no one will top Nolan, then great, but the topic at hand about which film will age or not, I haven't read anyone saying no one can top Nolan.

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Old 03-21-2013, 10:24 PM   #264
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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I just feel like it's modern mythology, similar to Star Wars. Old themes and ideas portrayed in a fresh way. It's not meant to balance the budget or solve terrorism.
Star Wars is based on ancient hero myths. Unless you want to count the new Star Wars movies, which seem to be about political allegory.

The Killing Joke is modern mythology. The Dark Knight/TDKR is political allegory in the guise of a comic book film.

It's Nolan cherry picking from the comic books, to shoehorn in political allegories based on a post-9/11 world.

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Old 03-21-2013, 10:37 PM   #265
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

The acting and writing in Nolan's Batman is just great. I wish there could be more Bane. Bane loves his fiber!

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Old 03-21-2013, 11:03 PM   #266
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Star Wars is based on ancient hero myths.
I thought Star Wars was only based on Campbell's Hero's Journey?

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Old 03-21-2013, 11:21 PM   #267
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Star Wars is based on ancient hero myths. Unless you want to count the new Star Wars movies, which seem to be about political allegory.

The Killing Joke is modern mythology. The Dark Knight/TDKR is political allegory in the guise of a comic book film.

It's Nolan cherry picking from the comic books, to shoehorn in political allegories based on a post-9/11 world.
There are topical elements in the films, sure. They're meant to take place in the "real world" and therefore reflect our real world.

But Nolan's films have a LOT of basic Campbell-ian ideas in them, regardless of whether they were intentional or not. Batman Begins is very much a "Hero's Journey" film, and so is Rises. You have the heroic figure who leaves his nest, embarks on an adventure where he learns "mystical" arts, returns home to spread his gifts and make the world a better place. The strong father and legacy themes, passing on what you have learned also lend a lot to that mythological bent the series as. Then you have villains that represent such old archetypes (The Joker in particular, as the "trickster"). These movies to me are about applying that grand type of storytelling to a contemporary world that is recognizable as our own.

And come on, Star Wars always had a blatantly political streak in it, even in the originals. The bad guys in the originals are the GOVERNMENT for crying out loud, haha. But neither Star Wars nor Nolan's Batman films are about politics. They're just about life. They just don't ignore political things because politics are a part of life.

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:31 AM   #268
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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The acting and writing in Nolan's Batman is just great. I wish there could be more Bane. Bane loves his fiber!
Eat floor. High fibre.

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I thought Star Wars was only based on Campbell's Hero's Journey?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Her...Thousand_Faces

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There are topical elements in the films, sure. They're meant to take place in the "real world" and therefore reflect our real world.

But Nolan's films have a LOT of basic Campbell-ian ideas in them, regardless of whether they were intentional or not. Batman Begins is very much a "Hero's Journey" film, and so is Rises. You have the heroic figure who leaves his nest, embarks on an adventure where he learns "mystical" arts, returns home to spread his gifts and make the world a better place. The strong father and legacy themes, passing on what you have learned also lend a lot to that mythological bent the series as. Then you have villains that represent such old archetypes (The Joker in particular, as the "trickster"). These movies to me are about applying that grand type of storytelling to a contemporary world that is recognizable as our own.

And come on, Star Wars always had a blatantly political streak in it, even in the originals. The bad guys in the originals are the GOVERNMENT for crying out loud, haha. But neither Star Wars nor Nolan's Batman films are about politics. They're just about life. They just don't ignore political things because politics are a part of life.
Batman Begins had more of that 'hero's journey' feel than the sequels did.

"They're about life" - a little too general in that statement.
"Politics are a part of life" - so are countless other things.

The Empire is like a combo of Nazis plus Ming the Merciless from Flash Gordon. Though empires have existed throughout human history. Are you thinking about modern governments like what we have now?

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Old 03-22-2013, 11:11 AM   #269
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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I just don't think the NOlan trilogy is the end-all, be-all of Batman like some Nolan fans constantly suggest.
Agreed. Nolan's trilogy feels like Nolan's trilogy... meaning it has his opinion all over it. If given the choice, I'd say Batman: The Animated Series is more the end-all-be-all of Batman than Nolan's trilogy.

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Old 03-22-2013, 11:47 AM   #270
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

I think guard said it best. This thread will go around in circles till people grasp that issue.
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Fans critique the execution. Not the attempt.
Anyways if I may add my thought. It would simply be to convey a more impressive Batman. Everything is elevated when an impressive hero is challenged and or defeated. Superman being beaten to death in a fair fight, Sherlock Holmes being out witted at every turn. These moments and or stories really take the audience somewhere cause there is a tangible sense of antagonistic accomplishment.

I almost never got that out of Nolan's Trilogy. When joker had batman running around in circles in TDK it really was all context and not much more. When bane beat an out of place batman. Then I look to Snyders current run on the Batman books and I see the Joker really putting it to Batman, only this batman isn't some with some guy training in a suit. I fear John Blake would be more of the same if not worse.

A more impressive Batman would be the one big fix. The rest of the poll would be great bonus's

I don't think there is anyone out there that thinks Nolan's "take" on a sequence like this could measure up. Then again some people are really convinced nolan is really doing the damn thing
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Love that pose he's in at the end.

I for one can just imagine this "direction" on all 3 of the bat scripts as they stand and being far more satisfied.
Execution!

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Old 03-22-2013, 11:49 AM   #271
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They should reference that rather beautiful scene in the first Batman: Black and White, where Batman examined a young woman's body to piece together her last moments.

Little things like that are why Batman is simply the best comicbook vigilante by far.
If all you(and the world) ever knew of batman was the nolan films, I doubt your statement would be as echoed as it is around comicdom.

The idea that earlier in this thread someone stated that TDK is the greatest story on the character in any medium...
Just that scene alone that you described transcends most anything we've seen in this Trilogy.

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Old 03-22-2013, 12:31 PM   #272
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Batman Begins had more of that 'hero's journey' feel than the sequels did.

"They're about life" - a little too general in that statement.
"Politics are a part of life" - so are countless other things.

The Empire is like a combo of Nazis plus Ming the Merciless from Flash Gordon. Though empires have existed throughout human history. Are you thinking about modern governments like what we have now?
It still followed a similar arc. TDK/ESB the good guys face tougher trials, their plans fall apart, evil "wins", etc. Then TDKR picks up on the hero's journey and takes him on a journey towards peace. You can engage with these films on the same universal levels that one does with Star Wars.

Well, without getting too political, the original Star Wars films were released during a time when America was well-established as a global "empire". It's no secret that George Lucas is a HUGE liberal.

Nolan on the other hand, nobody can quite put their finger on. He presents ideas in his films but ultimately leaves it up to the audience to make up their minds.

And yes The Empire is kind of like the Nazis, and yes empires have existed throughout human history. But on that same notes, revolutions have been happening all over the world throughout human history. Terrorism has been around for decades. People are just more alert to the political ideas in this series because it happens to take place in an American city, which Batman always has.

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Old 03-22-2013, 01:48 PM   #273
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

  1. A bit more fantastical villains with at least metaphorically semi-plausible and emotionally engaging backstories (like Poison Ivy for instance, but done in a hopefully badass way)
  2. "World's Greatest Detective"
  3. Not so much narrative content this, but still further developing the IMAX technology to be able to shoot most of the movie with it
  4. Still better action (although it did develop throughout the trilogy)
  5. More bat-gadgets (although maybe not for every singular plot-specific problem like the 60s live action series)

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Old 03-22-2013, 01:49 PM   #274
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Default Re: Your top 5 things that needs to be "fixed" for the Batman reboot

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Hrm...this doesn't tell me anything new. Another piece of Campbell that inspired Lucas. You brought up mythologies that inspired Star Wars when it's just Campbell's work.

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Old 03-22-2013, 02:28 PM   #275
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Hrm...this doesn't tell me anything new. Another piece of Campbell that inspired Lucas. You brought up mythologies that inspired Star Wars when it's just Campbell's work.
Yeah, but Campbell's work is based on all sorts of different mythologies from around the world. Campbell didn't tell his own stories, he just analyzed the commonalities between different myths. So anyone who is basing their work on Campbell is trying to tap into what worked about older mythologies.

My point to OutRiddled is that Nolan's films tap into that stuff too, regardless of whether or not they intentionally followed it as blueprint. Because the Nolans and Goyer are just good storytellers.

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