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#501 | ||||||
Banned User
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(I never had a problem with Nicholson's Joker being a criminal before. The Red Hood was a criminal and even in the first Joker story he's taking revenge on a cop who brought him into jail so I guess it makes sense) Quote:
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(On a side not, Death In The Family features the blandest Joker characterization ever) Quote:
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Bottom line: I am not the biggest Ledger fan, I also don't like "The Dark Knight" anymore. No one is going to convince me otherwise. ![]() |
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#502 | ||||||||||||||||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
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HA! Thank you.
Tongue tied? Burton's themes aren't complex at all. Quote:
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As for the talking to the corpse scene, the "corpse" looked hilarious, like one of those dummies that jump out at you on carnival spookhouse rides lol. Quote:
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Disfiguring women and making them wear masks is something he never does. That's just a rip off of another Batman villain, like killing Bruce's parents was a rip off of Joe Chill lol. Quote:
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"Batman? BATMAN? Can somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in where man dressed up as a BAT gets all of my press?" "We were having dinner. I was a man doing well with a beautiful woman. Without so much as an apology you RAN OFF with that sideshow phony" "I have given a name to my pain and it is Batman" "HE STOLE MY BALLOONS!!!!" In fact his smilex ploy looked like a sad attempt to get more attention than Batman. He was like an angry insecure kid competing with his brother for mommy's attention. I won't even get into his sad attempts to try and woo Vicki lol. Ledger's Joker was arrogant and cock sure of himself all through TDK. Never once does he get upset and throw a tantrum like Nicholson's Joker did. The ONLY time you ever see a glimmer of defeat on his face and see him annoyed is when the ferries don't blow each other up. Even then he gets the last laugh by telling Batman what he did to Dent. Quote:
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It's probably his most infamous and popular story, too. Quote:
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 03-21-2013 at 06:44 PM. |
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#503 |
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Hate to do this to you Joker (I don't really want to contradict or counter you, since we seem to be on the same page about most things but this thread), but the people in the Museum actually are dead, not knocked out as far as the film itself is concerned. The Museum employees on the steps clearly have rigamortis (their legs are straight up, not releaxed) and the patrons are all wide eyed, face first into their meals. If they were knocked out, they wouldn't look that way, especially the black woman and elderly woman.
There's also the fact that The Joker even says, "I make art till someone dies *looks around the museum*, see? Ha Ha". He killed them all. That line isn't even in the script either. The script says Vicki is the only one left conscious, sure, but it also states that Joker wants Bob to leave Edvard Munch's "THE SCREAM" (in the actual film, it's Bacon). In the script, Batman also gets his cape caught in the Batwing wreckage (Sam Hamm hated the idea of Batman wearing a cape). There's also the whole sequence with the Mayor. The final film is much, much different. Also, Alicia is debatable. "You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs". I'm inclined to believe that, based on his personality alone that he killed her. Last edited by milost; 03-21-2013 at 06:18 PM. |
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#504 | ||
The Clown Prince of Crime
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#505 | |
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Thanks man.
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Alicia was old news at that point though. Think about it, Vicki was a new "canvass" for the Joker and he said it himself at the museum, "I make art till someone dies". He's a twisted little ****. He did what he needed to with Alicia (disfigured her and traumatized her) then moved on. Had his way with her so to speak. That's why I think he seems to be so infatuated with Vicki, his next victim. She's beautiful and intelligent, pretty much the perfect person to ruin for your new, twisted philosophy. With the Joker I don't think "I found a new girl Bobby" means that he's going to take her out for a nice dinner. More like destroy her face with acid and mess her up mentally, like he did with Alicia. I don't think the Joker cares for women too much honestly, they're probably nothing more to him than those paintings that he destroyed in the museum. Let's remember his line to Grissom, "you SET ME UP, over a WOMAN". I don't think Alicia meant that much to him, she was pretty much an object to be had, a thing. Nothing more. It's also pretty evident with the ****** way he treated her. If he's capable of killing his right hand man, someone that would take a bullet for him, I think he's pretty capable of throwing Alicia out of a window. He's trying to ensnare Vicki, what's he going to say? That he did it? Oh, and I love what you stated about the Joker being insecure, because it's all true. He is peeved that this freak, Batman, the thing that made him who he is, is stealing his limelight. I mean, there are interpretations that hate and despise Batman and wouldn't mind seeing him dead. Not all of the interpretations want him to live or think he's "fun". I like how in '89, the two of them are the exact opposites. Batman is mysterious and doesn't want to be out in the spotlight whereas the Joker cherishes it. They're antithesis of each other. That's one of the things I like about the Joker in The Dark Knight. They change it up a bit. At first, he genuinely wants to kill Batman. "It's simple, we kill the Batman". But once he starts to see how he is and realizes that he isn't Dent, but just BATMAN, something clicks and he can't bring himself to kill him. I think that's just as valid. And like the Nicholson Joker, you can tell he relishes BEING the Joker. "I like this job, I LIKE IT". You can see his enthusiasm in all of his television broadcasts as well. Last edited by milost; 03-21-2013 at 06:50 PM. |
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#506 |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I don't think Alicia meant that much to him either. I'm not saying he cared about her or anything lol.
But I don't buy that he just killed her because he took a fancy to Vicki. If he did then she'd be dead the moment he decided to get himself a new girl. She was a work of art to him. In fact he compared her to himself by saying "Now like me she's a living work of art". Unless he has a habit of destroying things he thinks are great art, which he doesn't since he told Bob to spare that creepy looking painting he liked in the museum, there's no reason not to take him at his word that Alicia killed herself. Which lets face it is more plausible given to what he did to her face. As for killing Bob, he took his frustration out on Bob because according to him none of his men told him that Batman was capable of stealing his balloons like that. So he punished his right hand man. We knew his reasoning for it. We're not given any reason to believe he killed Alicia.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#507 | |
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True, but that's before the apartment. At the museum, he wants Vicki to record his work or some crazy stuff doesn't he? Of course he'd show off Alicia. But you're right, I agree that we don't know for sure that he killed her. If anything, he might have drove her to it. He scarred her face and psychologically and emotionally ruined what she was before (to the point that she has to be carried in by the goons and just sounds completely odd). Perhaps she really couldn't take it anymore and threw herself out of a window. Maybe he's telling the truth. But then again, we should never take the Joker for his word (neither of them), should we? It's always some kind of game or fun that the Joker is trying to pull, even if it doesn't make sense to us. The character isn't exactly coherent, that's what makes the Joker in general so great. I mean, he constantly contradicts himself in the comics, cartoons and films. He doesn't seem too disappointed or sad telling Vicki the news does he? I mean that "you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs" and that little sinister giggle he does after PUNCHING the mask tells me he had a hand in her demise. I don't take anything the Joker says literally anyway. Some people seem to think that he really loves Vicki or something, that he wants to woo her. I don't see that. He clearly just wants to **** with her like when he's leaving her apartment. He's like "won't you join me in a weep", then he notices her expression and just breaks down laughing giving her that point and expression like "the jokes on you, babe!" before doing that little bird dance thing he does before finally leaving. Not sure if you watched the making of features on the blu ray, but I love Nicholson's insight on the Joker in the film. "He's not wired up the same way. This guy has survived nuclear waste immersion here." That about sums it up really. Oh, and you're right about Bob. He's clearly taking his frustrations out on him. My point is though, the Joker doesn't really have an attachment to anyone or anything. Not his "artwork", not his men, not his right hand man, nothing really. So it's not out of the question that he simply got sick of Alicia and killed her. He's apathetic for the most part. Even the Ledger Joker is similar. I LOVE when he spits and mocks his goon when he gets electrocuted by Batman's mask. That's another great Joker moment. I really don't see how Outriddled can love the Nicholson Joker, but not like the Ledger Joker. Surely there's SOMETHING there in TDK Joker that Outriddled can enjoy and appreciate. Last edited by milost; 03-21-2013 at 07:19 PM. |
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#508 |
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Heath's Joker had his moments. "Very poor choice of words" "Does Harvey know about you and his little bunny?" What I didn't like was his attempt to prove a point with his 'social experiment' (I also think those scenes were badly acted and executed poorly, on the part of the people on the boat). It's like Nolan is trying to be clever by referencing current events, setting up Joker as this anarchist/terrorist in the vein of 9/11. I thought it was very anti-climactic, also.
Why not have Joker cause chaos for no reason like Jack Nicholson's did? (ok, he was trying to out-show Batman, but that's about all there was to it). I know he did something similar in The Killing Joke, but that was more about trying to drive Commissioner Gordon mad, not forcing a large group of people to commit mass murder to save their own skins. A couple of other little nitpicks, but overall I enjoyed Heath Ledger's performance. That and Tom Hardy's Bane are the best things about Nolan's Batman trilogy. I still prefer Nicholson as the Joker, though. |
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#509 |
4AF
Join Date: Dec 2012
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^^^Heath's Joker had the same goals of the Joker in The Killing Joke on a larger scale. It wasn't about driving Gordon mad in this version, in TDK it's about bringing Harvey down to his level and also showing everyone else that they're like him and that "when the chips are down, these civilized people; they'll eat each other".
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#510 | |
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Is it some thinly veiled reference to the War on Terror? That people are willing to participate in mass murder to save themselves because of fear of what the 'terrorists' might do? But it wasn't about turning these people 'mad' and 'like him' IE: a psychotic killer. It was about driving people from fear to go along with mass murder (hence the not too subtle reference to the Iraq war, etc). I suppose I can agree on Two-Face, since he did get half his face burnt off (although bizarrely he doesn't seem to care at all about this in the movie) and his fiance gets killed. But we see little signs of the madness that is supposed to already have been brewing in him, only when he was threatening Joker's henchman, but that wasn't enough for me to see him go totally vigilante and even willing to kill little kids. But it was all just because he was trying to avenge Rachel, not really because he had become like the Joker. I just found all this a little too convenient for the plot. Compare this to Two-Face's origin in the classic BTAS episode. Harvey was clearly already insane. Not because his girlfriend was being threatened, but because he just was. All it took was his scarring to push him over the edge. It wasn't caused by Joker killing his girlfriend. LAME, Nolan, LAME. We get little of Two-Face's backstory in The Dark Knight. Only that he's fighting corruption, has a nickname "Harvey Two-Face" (and we never find out why) and is engaged with Rachel Dawes. His Two-Face was more of a vigilante, seeking to make things right, than an outright criminal or madman like the Joker. So, again, I don't see the point. It's not illustrated as well as in The Killing Joke. Where he tries to drive Gordon mad but fails. In The Dark Knight, he succeeds with Harvey (driving him to madness or criminality), so does that mean that the Joker is right or wrong? This is never addressed in the movie. |
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#511 | ||||||||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
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Simple. Quote:
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Not hard to miss these things when you pay attention. But you somehow seemed to have been watching an entirely different movie based on your skewed perceptions of the plot. Quote:
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Add to that he's handed over to Joker's men by the COPS, gets half his face burned off, and Rachel is murdered. There's people who have lost their sanity and gone over the edge for far less than that. Quote:
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![]() ![]() Let me guess, you'd have been more enthralled watching Dent pull off some corny robbery of the 2nd Bank of Gotham of 2 million dollars at 2am or something like that right? Quote:
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Again obvious and you missed it.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 03-21-2013 at 10:36 PM. |
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#512 | ||||||||||
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Even in Two-Face's first issue, his appearance ****ed him up, and made him even more psychotic. I never got that vibe from The Dark Knight. Quote:
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In Killing Joke, he shoots Gordon's daughter and tortures him with images of her wounded body. In The Dark Knight, I can't remember the exact dialogue but all he does is convince Dent that Gordon and the police are responsible. |
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#513 | |
Lobsterized
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He manipulated everything to get Dent to do what he wanted. |
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#514 | ||||||||||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
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No, just human nature, which is often simple.
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Pull the other one it's got bells on it. Quote:
To quote Two Face in BTAS: "Chance is everything. Whether you're born or not. Whether you live or die. Whether you're good or bad" That was the basis of Dent's revenge spree. Quote:
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Gordon: "I'm sorry, Harvey" Dent: "No. No you're not. Not yet" Joker added some fuel to the fire and put a gun in his hand to do the job. But he didn't let the Joker off the hook either. Joker got the gun put to his head and the toss of the coin for his life just like everyone else Dent went after.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 03-21-2013 at 11:41 PM. |
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#515 |
Everything Under the Sun
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Someone who is two-faces presents themselves one way while acting in a different way. Harvey presented himself as being an honest man, yet he investigated cops behind their back - that's what internal affairs does. Clearly this was not lost on the cops themselves:
GORDON: "If I didn't work with cops you investigated while you were making your name at IA, I'd be working alone." Hence the name Harvey Two-Face. |
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#516 | ||||||||||||||
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Made simple for these scenes, at least. Quote:
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#517 | |||||||||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
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Hence the realistic nature of it. I wonder how you'd feel with the decision in your hands of blowing up hundreds of people.
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It reeked of plot contrivance, too, because it was added last minute by Burton during the writers strike, and even Sam Hamm didn't like it: "Many observed that Burton was more interested in the Joker rather than Batman in terms of characterization and screen time. Comic book fans reacted negatively over the Joker murdering Thomas and Martha Wayne. In the comic book, Joe Chill is responsible. Writer Sam Hamm, who is a comic book fan, said it was Burton's idea to have the Joker murder Wayne's parents. "The Writer's Strike was going on," Hamm continued, "and Tim had the other writers do that. I also hold innocent to Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave," he reasoned. "Fans were ticked off with that, and I agree. That would have been Alfred's last day of employment at Wayne Manor." http://destinyosbourne.hubpages.com/hub/the-batman Quote:
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Joker did it to him. Are you going to argue semantics of him using the circus freaks to drag Gordon around and strip him and hold him down on the carnival train, too, in TKJ instead of doing it himself? Quote:
Honestly of all the weak arguments.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#518 | |||||||
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#519 |
Everything Under the Sun
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#520 |
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What is so realistic about them, honestly? Just because they use real locations as a backdrop? Because they're not overly stylised and more generic in tone?
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#521 |
Everything Under the Sun
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You say generic, I say grounded in reality. Not hyper-realistic by any stretch of the imagination, but grounded in reality.
If you honestly believe that the Schumacher films (where there is a man who needs an ice suit to survive, a device that sucks intelligence from people's brains, a woman who has the power to control pheromones and kill people with a kiss) are just as grounded in reality as Nolan's films then you are either: a.) high as balls b.) trolling c.) didn't watch the same movies I did |
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#522 | |
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Fear gas? A secret organisation of ninjas that topples great empires through history? A guy who can walk around with half his face gone and eyeball completely exposed and not get infected or anything? A flying hovercraft? A guy that can take painkillers and gain super strength? A vehicle that can jump from rooftop to rooftop? A weapon that can turn an entire city's water supply to gas? ![]() Do I need to go on? Yeah, Nolan's are so realistic. ![]() |
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#523 |
Everything Under the Sun
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Nerve gases exist in real life. Organizations that topple or attempt to topple great empires are documented throughout history. Burn victims survive even some of the most horrific burns imaginable. Vehicles similar in design and function to the Tumbler and the Batpod and The Bat exist in real life. Maybe I'll give the Microwave Emitter, but even that is something I can see being developed in the real world.
Are the things you mentioned real? No. But their starting off point is always something that actually exists. Nolan took concepts from the real world, expanded them and added an element of the fantastic. Hence, grounded in reality. Name me ONE person who requires anything even remotely similar to Freeze's ice suit to survive. Name me ONE person who can do anything remotely similar to Ivy's pheromone control/deadly kiss. Name me ONE device that works remotely like Nigma's machine. |
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#524 | |
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Pheromone's are real, and yes, they have attempted to reproduce the effects, I'm sure. Nygma's machine is just virtual reality. It's all science fiction, just like in Nolan's films. |
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#525 | |
Everything Under the Sun
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