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Old 03-23-2013, 11:09 PM   #826
Anno_Domini
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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No, you're twisting it Anno. I'm sure even Batlobster can attest to this.


Bane cares for Talia, plain and simple. Never stated otherwise. In fact, I claimed that's all he cared about.


You're bringing in things like, "he cared about children and others innocence" when he CLEARLY doesn't. He only cared about Talia.


Those throw away lines you keep mentioning, that Phantasm and I jumped on, are throw away lines that have nothing to do with his characterization. "What a lovely, lovely voice" was a quirky line, much like "let the games begin". For all we know, that kid was killed in the blast when it blew. The cuts and kick off are so fast, and the line isn't even in the script, thus not essential to the characterization of Bane. He was waiting for the kid to leave? Really? Maybe they added that so folks weren't thinking, "OH MAN, THE MOVIE JUST KILLED A KID". But that's just as much reaching as, "Bane cares about kids". It has nothing to do with "innocent children". Then his threat against Pavel, "for the sake of your children"? Are you serious? He's threatening Pavel's FAMILY if everything doesn't go as planned with the nuclear device. Meaning, he will KILL his children if anything goes wrong. That doesn't sound like someone who cares about innocence to me.


Seriously, if that isn't reaching, I don't know what is. I mean you really think Bane cares about Pavel's kids if he's threatening them? Better yet, why would he destroy a city that houses innocent children? Or are you going to tell me that he knew that the little orphans were trying to cross the bridge during his fight with Batman too?



Bane cares about Talia, plain and simple. If he really believed innocence and the good of children, he wouldn't be doing what he's doing to Gotham, a city that houses innocent children and orphans. At the very least, he'd be conflicted about it. What you're saying, other than Talia, is complete nonsense and seeing something that's not there. I don't think that's too harsh. Sure everyone has a different POV and perception when it comes to films, but I think those two reasons you listed about the kids is baloney. Let's remember, he's going to blow all of them to hell and back. If that's the case, there is no "innocence is redemption".


Now the idea itself, it's a great idea, it would be fantastic if it was included, but it's not. It's not there. He doesn't care about innocence, like the voice over sequence telling his backstory suggests (other than Talia's), and he doesn't care about the plight of the children. He only cares about Talia, and Talia alone.








This is what we know about Bane without conjecture from TDKR,


- He was born in the prison pit (if he's telling the truth)

- He's a man when Talia and her mother is brought down

- When Talia's mother is killed, he protects her

- He helps her escape the pit

- She comes back with Ra's and the League of Shadows who comes back to exact terrible vengeance

- He and Talia are taken in and train with Ra's

- Ra's excommunicates Bane because Bane reminds him of the pit (hmmm, I wonder why) and his love for Talia

- Talia can't forgive her father and despises him and leaves the league along with Bane

-------------------------------------------------


- Talia finds out that her father, whom she dislikes, is killed. She wants revenge

- Bane comes along with her, wants to FULFILL RA'S AL GHULS DESTINY!

- Involved in an elaborate, convoluted plot to not just destroy Gotham outright, but give it's citizens and Batman a false hope for 5 long months . . .







That's pretty much Bane. He's not religious, he's not honorable, he doesn't care for the plight of the children other than Talia, and he wants to destroy the city, a city that had no involvement with his pain or suffering, to burn to ashes in a horrible nuclear holocaust that will claim the lives of not just innocent men and women, but innocent children as well. Doesn't sound like the original creation of Bane to me, and certainly doesn't sound better.


Little Osito, self-made man > Talia and DA LEAGUE, any day of the week



Nothing to sympathize with TDKR Bane as far as I'm considered. For all we know, Bane's love for Talia, a grown man raised in the confines of a terrible prison, is a SICK love. Perhaps that's why Ra's threw him out. Talia clearly had "daddy issues". Think about it, Talia would be easily impressionable, Bane would be her first parental figure after her mother dies when she's young. They're both clearly twisted and psychotic. They dislike Ra's, but want to fulfill his destiny? They want to honor him? Insane.

Then again, all of this information is literally TOLD to us, in crazy short exposition spurts, and in A TWIST. So who the hell knows.






I don't see how anyone could possibly care for Bane or Talia, I simply don't. Bane would be much stronger as a character if Talia and the League Of Shadows weren't involved and he was his own, self made man, who had risen from the darkness, with convictions, true ideals and a sense of honor. Not a man who was crazy about a little girl, who was ex-communicated for being a MONSTER that LOVED the leader's daughter, and did anything for that little girl including, BLOWING A CITY AWAY IN NUCLEAR FIRE.

At the very least it would have been compelling for Bane to have conflict with Talia and the League of Shadows about destroying innocent lives. If he believes in innocence and redemption, why would then would he be so gung ho with their way of life?


Oh, that's right, because of Talia . . . .
I will always view those two lines from Bane to be about his views on the innocence of children. If not, then the "lovely, lovely voice" statement as well the "For the sake of your children, Dr. Pavel" lines aren't even necessary and make too much sense because of how Bane cared for a young Talia to not connect the dots. You don't, then marvelous, but I certainly do. I've thought that way since the first time I saw TDKR.

Quote:
- Talia can't forgive her father and despises him and leaves the league along with Bane
Leaves along with Bane? Like, together? Because that's not fact. We know nothing of when Talia leaves the League. It could be right after Bane is ex-communicated, or it could have been days/weeks/months/et cetera.

Quote:
- Bane comes along with her, wants to FULFILL RA'S AL GHULS DESTINY!
Bane doesn't come along with her. Bane is as much of the plan as Talia is. Talia hated her father to a point and seemingly, so did Bane, but they both were saved in a way by Ra's al Ghul. This was them still honoring the man. And during my discussions with Shikamaru, those men may not have even been LoS and instead Bane's men/mercenaries. Bane had the army, and Talia needed an army = Bane didn't just "come along"(if you go by that theory, and it's quite interesting).


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Old 03-23-2013, 11:18 PM   #827
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Okay, so you don't think "lovely, lovely voice" is a quirky line. Alright. I'll sort of give you it.


But maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, his line to Pavel? Really? He's straight up threatening his children that if this bomb doesn't go off, he's going to kill Pavel's kids. That's simply ludicrous that Bane would care for young children when 1. He's threatening Pavel by threatening his children and 2. Blowing away a city in a blaze of nuclear fire that houses innocent children.


That's just an insane notion to make to try and "better" the character for yourself. Surely I can't be out of line here? Am I crazy? What do other people think of what Anno is seeing?

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:24 PM   #828
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

How is it ludicrous? The entire movie, we hear nothing of a wife or children and then Bane just brings up this man's kids that we didn't even need to know about. That doesn't sound like it meant something when we still could have gone through the film without knowing Pavel had kids?

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:27 PM   #829
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Bane will do anything to do "what's necessary". He even calls himself "necessary evil". So yes, he's willing to harm children, and indeed intends to slaughter millions of them. That doesn't mean he takes any pleasure in that side of his duty.

That's the difference between him and The Joker. The Joker would push a baby carriage into the street just to watch it get hit by a truck, and he'd have a good laugh about it.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:35 PM   #830
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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How is it ludicrous? The entire movie, we hear nothing of a wife or children and then Bane just brings up this man's kids that we didn't even need to know about. That doesn't sound like it meant something when we still could have gone through the film without knowing Pavel had kids?

Because,


DR. PAVEL

And then it will go off.

BANE

For the sake of your family, Dr. Pavel, I hope so.



That tells me that if the bomb doesn't go off, Bane and the League have Pavel's family (family in the script, changed to children in the film) and will harm them if Pavel screws around or does anything funny.


What else would that line possibly mean???





And again, nothing in a script is set in stone sure, but TDKR's final script (we've never seen any of their original concepts or early drafts) is PRETTY damn close to what was filmed. And you know what? That "lovely, lovely voice" isn't even IN the script, thus, Goyer and the Nolans mustn't have thought it was important for Bane's "I care about the innocent children" characterization. I can't back it up, and won't, but it was most likely AD-LIBBED by Tom Hardy, like Ledger's "little bunny" or Nicholson's "number one guy", Grissom impersonation.

A QUIRKY little ironic, villain, THROW away line.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:36 PM   #831
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Bane will do anything to do "what's necessary". He even calls himself "necessary evil". So yes, he's willing to harm children, and indeed intends to slaughter millions of them. That doesn't mean he takes any pleasure in that side of his duty.

That's the difference between him and The Joker. The Joker would push a baby carriage into the street just to watch it get hit by a truck, and he'd have a good laugh about it.
Agreed BatLobster


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Old 03-23-2013, 11:39 PM   #832
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Because,


DR. PAVEL

And then it will go off.

BANE

For the sake of your family, Dr. Pavel, I hope so.



That tells me that if the bomb doesn't go off, Bane and the League have Pavel's family (family in the script, changed to children in the film) and will harm them if Pavel screws around or does anything funny.


What else would that line possibly mean???





And again, nothing in a script is set in stone, but TDKR's final script (we've never seen any of their original concepts or eary drafts) is PRETTY damn close to what was filmed. And you know what? That "lovely, lovely voice" isn't even IN the script, thus, Goyer and the Nolans mustn't have thought it was important for Bane's "I care about the innocent children" characterization. I can't back it up, and won't, but it was most likely AD-LIBBED by Tom Hardy, like Ledger's "little bunny" or Nicholson's "number one guy", Grissom impersonation.

A QUIRKY little ironic, villain, THROW away line.
If you're going to bring up the script, I should just say the scene of Blake and Mark(the orphan) talking about Batman were ad-libbed as well since that wasn't in the script?

Again, I'm just viewing as the lines to connect to Bane's past and how he views a child's innocence, while you view them as throwaway lines that I never would. Dr. Pavel having a family didn't have to be mentioned, but it did.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:41 PM   #833
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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How is it ludicrous? The entire movie, we hear nothing of a wife or children and then Bane just brings up this man's kids that we didn't even need to know about. That doesn't sound like it meant something when we still could have gone through the film without knowing Pavel had kids?
But then what does the line mean if he is not threatening the children?

"And for the sake of your children, I hope it does". Why does Bane want the bomb to go off for the sake of Pavel's children if he doesn't intend to hurt Pavel's family? What do the children gain from Gotham being blown to hell? To be rid of the evil that is Gotham even though they don't even live there?

I honestly think that line, and the "lovely voice" line are meant to show us that Bane really is that necessary evil.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:42 PM   #834
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Pavel mentioned the five months that it takes for the bomb to heat and that's why Bane mentioned the line. For the sake of Pavel's children, it better take five months.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:44 PM   #835
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Because he will kill them if it doesn't

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:45 PM   #836
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Because he will kill them if it doesn't
Yup.

Everyone's entitled to their own interpretations, Anno included
But that line was a threat pure and simple and nothing you'll say will convince me otherwise.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:46 PM   #837
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

And for the "innocence" talk, I see it more as him caring for the innocence of Talia, not just innocence in general. We don't really know why he was in that prison, like I said earlier he could have been a murderer taking innocent lives to begin with. And then he intends to take millions of innocent lives in Gotham. It just doesn't add up.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:50 PM   #838
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Because he will kill them if it doesn't
Do you mean Bane will purposely kill them or he'll set the bomb off before the five months?

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Yup.

Everyone's entitled to their own interpretations, Anno included
But that line was a threat pure and simple and nothing you'll say will convince me otherwise.
Yay, I'm entitled to my own interpretation! Lol.

I feel the same way too. My opinions won't change, even if milost wants to reply and reply and reply about my views, haha.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:50 PM   #839
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I tend to believe bane when he says he was born in darkness and didn't see the light until he was a man. He'd have no reason to lie to Bruce about that.

I think the film leaves the possibility of his comic origin completely open (him serving out the sentence of his father). Obviously it never confirms anything of the sort, but it's left open to interpretation. That's how I like to interpret it. That way, he sees Talia who is also born in the pit and cherishes her innocence because he sees himself in her and relates to her circumstances. I think growing up in the prison did harden him and did strip him of his innocence rather quickly, so it's feasible that he could see the child as a source of salvation or redemption.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:51 PM   #840
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Because he will kill them if it doesn't
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Yup.

Everyone's entitled to their own interpretations, Anno included
But that line was a threat pure and simple and nothing you'll say will convince me otherwise.
THANK YOU.


Man, I was going crazy there for a second. Maaaaaaaaan.

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:56 PM   #841
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

milost, nobody here is arguing that Bane wouldn't kill children and wasn't threatening Pavel's children.

He could have threatened Pavel's wife. Or he could have said something like "If this bomb does not go off in five months...I WILL BREAK YOUR CHILDREN."

It's the fact that he says "for the sake of your children indeed I hope it does"... that implies, "Hey I'd hate to have to do this, but you know I will, so don't make me."

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:56 PM   #842
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So...should I quote BatLobster and start thanking him too?

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:57 PM   #843
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I think the film leaves the possibility of his comic origin completely open (him serving out the sentence of his father). Obviously it never confirms anything of the sort, but it's left open to interpretation. That's how I like to interpret it. That way, he sees Talia who is also born in the pit and cherishes her innocence because he sees himself in her and relates to her circumstances.

Then if we're to believe him, then he was also a man when Ra's and the League came to him and by that time, surely a guy that has the desire to save and protect an innocent little girl has his own formed his own idealologies about how the world works. Not one in which you destroy a city that inhabits innocent children (if you and Anno really think Bane gives a damn). If anything, it'd make more sense for Bane to be excommunicated because he doesn't BELIEVE in Ra's Al Ghul's cause.

And it's nothing like the comics either. Bane in the comics was sentenced for his father's crimes, built himself up, BY HIMSELF, and escaped the pits and prison BY HIMSELF. Bane isn't even a full fledged villain in the comics and has been an ally of Batman's in a few stories. Comic Bane also, most certainly cares about innocence and children. Comic book Bane, while involved briefly with Ra's and Talia, would NEVER commit the atrocities that Ra's would because they're TWO completely different characters.


No doubt he sees himself in Talia, you got that right but all these other claims like seeing things in those lines? I dunno.





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Bane will do anything to do "what's necessary". He even calls himself "necessary evil". So yes, he's willing to harm children, and indeed intends to slaughter millions of them. That doesn't mean he takes any pleasure in that side of his duty.
And, what did I originally state in my initial posts before this ludicrous argument about "Bane feelings" came into the discussion?

We never, ever see him at conflicts with what he's doing or his decisions. Would you agree that that is purely personal conjecture and not something, we the audience is supposed to feel or something Nolan intends? We don't even get even the slightest hint that he may be at odds with himself or feel anything for what he's doing. For all we know, Bane may get satisfaction out of it. We don't know. What we do know is that he loves Talia, and pretty much Talia only. Everything that I stated about him is in that post. In fact, we even see him, atop of the Tumbler, spreading lies, "GOTHAM IS YAAAWWSSSS" while his eyes and brows are expressing anything but an interest in the cities well being.


There are no subtleties about how he feels or anything like that, just exposition and a twist. For all we know as an audience, Bane may have no opinion of the matter and is doing this for Talia and to simply, "FULFULL RAZ AL GHOOOLZ DESTINY!" We don't know. All we know is that they were excommunicated, Bane wasn't well liked by Ra's. If anything, we should be doubting why the hell Talia and Bane aren't thanking Batman. It's just so illogical and crazy. What they're doing, their whole plan, it's nonsense.


I'm telling you guys, think what you want, you're entitled to it, but there's NOTHING to suggest that "lovely, lovely voice" and "for the sake of your children, Pavel" means that Bane cares about children or innocence. JUST Talia, which has been my entire point for the last page of this thread.



And if he somehow does, his reasoning makes absolutely no sense once so ever other than simply, "Talia and Bane were raised in a hole in the ground and are bat**** crazy". And if that's the case, the two of them are anything BUT compelling or deep or good characterizations.


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Old 03-23-2013, 11:58 PM   #844
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Ahh ****, I'll do it anyways.

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milost, nobody here is arguing that Bane wouldn't kill children and wasn't threatening Pavel's children.

He could have threatened Pavel's wife. Or he could have said something like "If this bomb does not go off in five months...I WILL BREAK YOUR CHILDREN."

It's the fact that he says "for the sake of your children indeed I hope it does"... that implies, "Hey I'd hate to have to do this, but you know I will, so don't make me."
THANK YOU!

Didn't know I said anything about Bane not killing children. Destroying Gotham City as a whole was necessary, but I saw tendencies of how Bane viewed children. Glad I'm not the only one BatLobster

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Old 03-23-2013, 11:58 PM   #845
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So...should I quote BatLobster and start thanking him too?
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

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Old 03-24-2013, 12:00 AM   #846
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I'm telling you guys, think what you want, you're entitled to it, but there's NOTHING to suggest that "lovely, lovely voice" and "for the sake of your children, Pavel" means that Bane cares about children or innocence. JUST Talia, which has been my entire point for the last page of this thread.
I hate this kind of attitude.

"You guys can have your opinion, but you still shouldn't think this way".

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Old 03-24-2013, 12:02 AM   #847
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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

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Old 03-24-2013, 12:14 AM   #848
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Then if we're to believe him, then he was also a man when Ra's and the League came to him and by that time, surely a guy that has the desire to save and protect an innocent little girl has his own formed his own idealologies about how the world works. Not one in which you destroy a city that inhabits innocent children (if you and Anno really think Bane gives a damn). If anything, it'd make more sense for Bane to be excommunicated because he doesn't BELIEVE in Ra's Al Ghul's cause.
Why would a man who has spent his entire life underground have any IDEA about how the world works, other than a basic feeling of the inherent injustice of the world?

Wouldn't Bane be almost the perfect person to be persuaded to the LOS's ideologies? A wrecking ball forged from hell who has suffered tremendously. The only thing stopping Bruce from joining the League was he didn't want to take life. He was able to deal with all of Ra's' teachings leading up to that moment. You think Bane had that same problem after living his life in a prison? He had already murdered people in the name of "justice" before Ra's even found him.

Edit: WOW, in thinking about all this I just had somewhat of an epiphany. In the flashback scene in the pit, we see young Talia stab that prisoner in the back, but Bane quickly picks her up and stabs him again, presumably killing him. I never thought of it this way, but right there he's protecting her innocence. He's being her "dark knight" and getting his hands dirty so she doesn't have to.

At the end, because Bane is beaten by Batman, Talia stabs Bruce. She has to end the ruse and get her hands dirty. It's almost as if Bane is shedding a tear because he's failed her. I feel like Bane worships the ideal of what Talia represents to him moreso than any sort of romantic connotation that people seemed to have gotten out of it (which doesn't make sense given the age gap).

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Old 03-24-2013, 12:30 AM   #849
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I hate this kind of attitude.

"You guys can have your opinion, but you still shouldn't think this way".


Well, this entire thing originated out of,


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but I have to ask...did you not relate, or at least feel saddened for Bane when he finally becomes "human" to the viewer of how he protected a young Talia and that's why he views the innocence of children("What a lovely, lovely voice.", "For the sake of your children....")?

And I simply stated my reasoning and moved on.


I'm not touched or saddened by the two of them. They're psychopaths, just as Batman put it.

It would actually be nice if I could sympathize with the characters, or Bane atleast, but it's impossible. It should have been easy, because you could play with the idea of these two children being sentenced to hell for crimes they didn't commit, but it's never really about that. It's about typical, cliched, revenge. They're the typical villains that were short changed and acting out. I think we've ALL seen that enough times.

Let's look at Bane. He was born (if he's even telling the truth and the big twist reveal doesn't change that) in prison and was released as a man (for all we know, he could be as old as Ra's). We don't know why. All we know is that he protected a child from the other prisoners.

Let's look at Talia. She was put in prison because of her father's crimes (essentially Bane's comic origin, give or take). Her mother is killed, possibly raped. Bane protects her, most likely seeing a bit of himself in her. He helps her escape and is beaten to a pulp.

She escapes, somehow finds Ra's (who I guess never knew of the location of the pit his pregnant wife was sent to, despite being in an organization that can somehow burn London to the ground), tells him to go back to the pit and "exact terrible vengeance".

Ra's and the League go back, kill prisoners left and right, and bring Bane out. Bane and Talia spend their time training with Ra's and the League.

Then one day, Ra's excommunicates Bane because he saw a monster in Bane, was too extreme (if Alfred is right), and loooooooooved Talia. It rubbed Ra's the wrong way, and he threw Bane out. Talia went with him. This is PURE conjecture on my part, because it's no where stated or implied in the film. But it wouldn't surprise me if Talia saw more of a father figure in Bane (lets face it, he was Talia's guardian for years) than Ra's and it made Ra's lose it.




So, Talia hates her father, can't bring herself to forgive him. Obviously doesn't agree with his decision in exiling Bane. Let's also remember, TALIA SERVED HER TIME IN HELL FOR RA'S AL GHUL'S SUPPOSED CRIME.


And Bane? Bane protected Ra's Al Ghul's daughter and the gratitude he's met with is a door to the face and being told to get out.



It makes sense that Talia and Bane would resent Ra's Al Ghul. But then what happens? Batman comes along and "kills Ra's" to protect innocent people (obviously Talia doesn't agree with him there). That makes Talia and Bane come out of the woodwork? Out of no where? Alright.


So then, they plan for years to take down Batman, destroy Bruce in every possible way, send him to a prison to watch them mess with the city for 5 long months (giving their enemies, like Batman, Gordon, and the police plenty of chances to foil their plot), publicly and out in the open (something Ra's never did), just for revenge? Because they didn't get a chance to forgive Ra's? They were going to forgive him? If they really wanted to destroy Bruce's hope, why not blow the city as soon as Bruce was in prison? Imagine the pain and anguish Bruce would go through, having lost the city he loves and the despair he'd go through? They'd fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny, but also have Bruce rot for the rest of his days with the fact that he failed to protect his city.


But no, instead they mess around for 5 long months. Pretend that they're their for the plight of the city. Pretend they're liberators. To give the city a false hope. To send, POLICE OFFICERS, food and supplies!

What is hope going to matter when Gotham's citizens aren't even matter after being completely obliterated by a nuclear device? The world will have seen what happened to Gotham and most importantly, so would Bruce, who couldn't do anything to protect it.

It makes absolutely no sense. Atleast with Ra's, he wanted to make the city pull itself apart through fear. To not just make a statement, but to start a new with Gotham destroyed. Talia and Bane? They just mess around for months until Batman, the cops, essentially anyone that can foil their plot, recuperates and counters them in opposition. All while one pretends to be someone they're not (even going as far as being in a court with other business people) and the other attending said trials and looking for special ops guys to sit on.












Please tell me how these two are good, compelling villains? PLEASE. I need to see this maturity and respect for the characters and how they're better than previous incarnations.


Last edited by milost; 03-24-2013 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:33 AM   #850
milost
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
Why would a man who has spent his entire life underground have any IDEA about how the world works, other than a basic feeling of the inherent injustice of the world?

Why would a man who has spent his entire life underground and sees how prison life and other prisoners act (in a dog eat dog world where raping, murder and violence is rampant and okay), risk his life to save a little girl and think of her as "innocent" and protect her?

Shouldn't living underground harden him and make him that monster that Ra's sees in him?

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