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Old 03-24-2013, 11:13 PM   #876
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I'll just say that the problem with this movie for me was in it's very conception and let down further by it's execution. The only reason Bane even turned a blind eye to Gotham was because of Talia...this source of innocence. How the hell can something be interesting if the main villain (In my mind Talia doesn't count and Bane should have been the only villain with his own ideals) is simply doing the same thing someone attempted in the first movie even if it is his own way and then we find out he is only doing it because the real villain wants revenge. After all the waves the Joker made why on earth would we want to go back to a simple and basic challenge for our hero being sparked by cliche revenge. Bane and Talia stood for nothing of their own which ultimately disappointed the crap out of me. They didn't ask any new questions or pump any new life into the series because of this Raz dependency. Come on...this is the finale and you need to go out with a bang. Bane was the perfect villain to make this series finish on a superb note and the opportunity was squandered. Sometimes I wonder if they even needed a clear cut villain. I just feel so unfulfilled with this movie that it's crazy. Catwoman, the Bat and Talia changed the entire tone of the series and ultimately ruined it for me also. That 8 year gap was a bad decision and could have worked if Bruce had one thunderous and monumental comeback (with him being the last hope) instead of 2 so so cameos.

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Old 03-24-2013, 11:31 PM   #877
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I'll just say that the problem with this movie for me was in it's very conception and let down further by it's execution. The only reason Bane even turned a blind eye to Gotham was because of Talia...this source of innocence. How the hell can something be interesting if the main villain (In my mind Talia doesn't count and Bane should have been the only villain with his own ideals) is simply doing the same thing someone attempted in the first movie even if it is his own way and then we find out he is only doing it because the real villain wants revenge. After all the waves the Joker made why on earth would we want to go back to a simple and basic challenge for our hero being sparked by cliche revenge. Bane and Talia stood for nothing of their own which ultimately disappointed the crap out of me. They didn't ask any new questions or pump any new life into the series because of this Raz dependency. Come on...this is the finale and you need to go out with a bang. Bane was the perfect villain to make this series finish on a superb note and the opportunity was squandered. Sometimes I wonder if they even needed a clear cut villain. I just feel so unfulfilled with this movie that it's crazy. Catwoman, the Bat and Talia changed the entire tone of the series and ultimately ruined it for me also. That 8 year gap was a bad decision and could have worked if Bruce had one thunderous and monumental comeback (with him being the last hope) instead of 2 so so cameos.
You make some good points. However, Ra's wanted a reset and believed what he did was for the good of Gotham. Bane and Talia on the other hand, wanted to destroy the city.

I agree the eight year gap was a bad decision. In fact, I didn't like that Batman became the "villan" and had to go into hiding. And other than the cops chasing Batman during TDKR, it really didn't feel like Batman was unwanted. Also, it wasn't mentioned that Batman was wanted for murder.

Instead, I would've liked the people of Gotham to find out that Harvey went nuts and all the work he did in putting away the mob was all for naught.

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Old 03-24-2013, 11:57 PM   #878
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You make some good points. However, Ra's wanted a reset and believed what he did was for the good of Gotham. Bane and Talia on the other hand, wanted to destroy the city.

I agree the eight year gap was a bad decision. In fact, I didn't like that Batman became the "villan" and had to go into hiding. And other than the cops chasing Batman during TDKR, it really didn't feel like Batman was unwanted. Also, it wasn't mentioned that Batman was wanted for murder.

Instead, I would've liked the people of Gotham to find out that Harvey went nuts and all the work he did in putting away the mob was all for naught.
Mayor Garcia mentions that Batman murdered Dent in cold blood at the very beginning, during the "Harvey Dent Day" memorial. So one would assume that he was still a big deal and wanted for murder. Especially when Batman shows up out of nowhere and Foley had off duty and beat/patrol cops all coming in to bring down the SOB who murdered Harvey Dent.



The 8 year gap, more so the exile of Batman was bold. Could it have been handled a little better? Sure. I would have loved for some mentioning of Bruce continuing his crusade up until the Dent Act came into play. But seeing Bruce Wayne lost without Batman, after having the clean energy project fail, sold the point home well enough.

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:22 AM   #879
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I just watched TDK again this morning, and I do believe some form of exile for Batman was planned. In Rachel's letter she mentions that a day when Gotham no longer needs Batman would possibly come, but a day when Bruce no longer needed Batman would never come.

Perhaps Bruce's self imposed exile as Batman wouldn't be 8 years, but I still think the first act in TDKR would have stayed pretty much the same, at least for Bruce's arc; had Heath lived, and returned as the Joker.
Wow, I had never thought of Rachel's letter like that. It is pretty interesting how Bruce Wayne can't live without The Batman in the beginning of TDKR.

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I don't disagree with this, but I think a lot of us are having trouble understanding why exactly Bane and Talia want to blow Gotham City to bits while killing themselves in the process? However, I do understand that Talia wanted Batman to witness his failure in saving his city. But again, I don't know why she would go through the trouble of killing herself just to make Batman suffer. Bane's motivation is even more bizarre.
I view all of Bane's men, Bane and Talia just being okay with sacrificing themselves when "fulfilling" Ra's al Ghul's destiny. I think it should have been explained for why they're so into that idea(but then again, it's never explained even for why the LoS were loyal to Ra's), but other than that I think it's understandable since Bane's men are even down with sacrificing their lives for Bane, so Bane himself and Talia would be down to kill themselves as well.

In simple terms:

Bane's men - would sacrifice their lives for Bane

Bane - would sacrifice his life for Talia

Talia - would sacrifice her life to prove that Batman failed

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Just another reason why I believe they are the LOS 2.0. When Bane was ex-communicated, he and Talia had a lot of time to put together their own crew.
I kinda think a bit differently than that...I think Bane slowly made a name for himself, as seen from the CIA knowing full well who Bane is and Talia was in the background while Bane was making a name for himself and gaining an army.

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Yeah, I can't buy that the last night Bruce was in the cape and cowl was the night Dent died. I mean, did the Dent Act come into affect the very next morning? lol.
It can be looked either way, I think, to the viewer's imagination.

Batman could have quit with the majority of the mobs in jail for a year plus as mentioned by Dent and the top guys being dead and gone(Gambol, Chechen, Maroni) or Batman stayed around just to make sure Gotham is okay until it's time for him to really quit.

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You make some good points. However, Ra's wanted a reset and believed what he did was for the good of Gotham. Bane and Talia on the other hand, wanted to destroy the city.
Indeed. With Talia, it was all about revenge and to her luck, she knew a man and an army that would die for a cause.

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:23 AM   #880
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Mayor Garcia mentions that Batman murdered Dent in cold blood at the very beginning, during the "Harvey Dent Day" memorial. So one would assume that he was still a big deal and wanted for murder. Especially when Batman shows up out of nowhere and Foley had off duty and beat/patrol cops all coming in to bring down the SOB who murdered Harvey Dent.



The 8 year gap, more so the exile of Batman was bold. Could it have been handled a little better? Sure. I would have loved for some mentioning of Bruce continuing his crusade up until the Dent Act came into play. But seeing Bruce Wayne lost without Batman, after having the clean energy project fail, sold the point home well enough.
I'll have to watch it again, I totally missed that. Yes, I mentioned the police chase in my previous post. But the cop that said, "you're in for a treat tonight son" (which makes me cringe), didn't seem like something a cop would say trying to capture a "murderer". I'm mean, if I felt that Batman was going to endanger my life, saying that hideous line wouldn't even be on my radar.

But then again, it could explain why the kid tried to shoot at Batman.


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Old 03-25-2013, 12:26 AM   #881
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

The mayor says in his Harvey Dent Day speech that Batman murdered Harvey in cold blood.

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:32 AM   #882
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Indeed. With Talia, it was all about revenge and to her luck, she knew a man and an army that would die for a cause.
When you think about it, Talia was smart enough to the point where she didn't need Bane. The failed energy project already put Bruce in his own hell. In fact, she could've kept doing these things "behind the scenes" like Ra's's LOS. Kind of like what Edmond Dantes did to his enemies in The Count of Monte Cristo.

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:35 AM   #883
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I'll have to watch it again, I totally missed that. Yes, I mentioned the police chase in my previous post. But the cop that said, "you're in for a treat tonight son" (which makes me cringe), didn't seem like something a cop would say trying to capture a "murderer". I'm mean, if I felt that Batman was going to endanger my life, saying that hideous line wouldn't even be on my radar.

But then again, it could explain why the kid tried to shoot at Batman.
The police were on the pursuit of Bane and his men at the stock exchange. Batman's return totally blindsided everyone; including the older cop. That's why his reaction to Batman was warranted.

The younger cop shooting at Batman made sense. He wasn't even aware of the severity of the situation until he tries to shoot at Batman and gets that death glare from him. That's when he knew the legend was real.

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:40 AM   #884
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The mayor says in his Harvey Dent Day speech that Batman murdered Harvey in cold blood.
Yep. Double that with Foley's contempt towards Batman: Who do you wanna catch, huh? Some robber, or the son of a ***** who killed Harvey Dent?

Whether or not you liked Foley, I'm pretty sure most liked that line, hearing the hatred that the majority of the GPD felt towards Batman.

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Old 03-25-2013, 12:46 AM   #885
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When you think about it, Talia was smart enough to the point where she didn't need Bane. The failed energy project already put Bruce in his own hell. In fact, she could've kept doing these things "behind the scenes" like Ra's's LOS. Kind of like what Edmond Dantes did to his enemies in The Count of Monte Cristo.
Plan A - seducing Bruce Wayne and getting him to leave the country

Plan B - having someone stronger than Batman to beat him and take him out of the country

That's the biggest reason why Bane is needed. Someone to defeat Batman; someone that was hands down even stronger than Ra's al Ghul and Talia didn't fit the bill.

Plus, the whole needing an army bit as well that would work on the Tumblers and what have you.

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Old 03-25-2013, 07:07 AM   #886
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Indeed. With Talia, it was all about revenge and to her luck, she knew a man and an army that would die for a cause.
And that's even less interesting
At least Ra's wanted something that could "potentially" be for the good of mankind. Those kind of moral gray areas are what make a villain three-dimensional. "I want revenge because you killed my father" is about as not-three-dimensional as you can get.

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Old 03-25-2013, 07:46 AM   #887
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But the cop that said, "you're in for a treat tonight son" (which makes me cringe), didn't seem like something a cop would say trying to capture a "murderer". I'm mean, if I felt that Batman was going to endanger my life, saying that hideous line wouldn't even be on my radar.
I think, this phrase added so much to this scene, which is one of the best in the movie. I didn't like it in the trailer, because it was out of context, but it was great in the movie.

Maybe Blake isn't the only one who wasn't convinced by the official version of events? What if the old guy saw The Batman in action before, remembers his good deeds.

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Old 03-25-2013, 11:20 AM   #888
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Here's something I scribbled together quickly to contribute to the topic. A lot of my points would need to be explained more in depth and the weaker points would need to be refined which I don't have time for at the moment but what the hell....

I believe the mask hindered Bane's character a great deal. I would have had him not need the mask any at all but use it to represent a second persona like batman to cover his true motives or hide his identity. This would allow him more freedom in the city and not limit the extent to which a character like him can exist in this kind of world. The basic question of what would a character like Bane want with Batman and Gotham in a semi realistic world is what I believed the writers couldn't figure out which led to them playing it safe and going back to the twisted cult mindset of the league. For Bane to have worked convincingly in a FINALE he needed to have had a compelling reason to be at odds with Batman and Gotham. I believe he needed to have had a deep twisted hatred for Bruce along the lines of HUSH but because Bruce represents everything he never had a chance to be. He would also have planned to take down Batman after he was finished with Bruce Wayne because he also represents an idea he despises which I will explain later. I would have him not know Batman's identity and during his efforts to psychologically destroy Bruce Wayne's world in the public eye in his own way discover his secret. This would then lead to him despising Batman even more because someone who had it all uses his power to issue vigilante justice. Bane would view Bruce's existence as poisonous and hypocritical to Gotham and a representation of everything wrong in his eyes with the powerful preying on the helpless. With this knowledge I would have him torture Bruce psychologically from the shadows before lowering him out as Batman and beating him badly and holding him captive (Bane passed through the league and received training but excommunicated because of conflicting ideals). He would view death as being too easy a faith for such a hypocrite so he would develop a plan to use Batman's suit to turn his already tarnished image into that of a mass murderer undoing everything Batman stood for by having his goons (fanatics loyal to Bane) commit horrible acts to citizens while wearing the suit. His men are willing to die before they talk if captured because they believe in Bane's cause. With these acts being committed Bane's (without mask) master stroke will be to put a beaten and injured Bruce into the suit and allow GCPD to capture him at the scene of a crime. Bane would then use this as a platform to gain a following in Gotham forwarding a revolutionary agenda of rising against crime and corruption by using Bruce as an example that the rich and powerful can't be trusted. He'll play both sides of the coin and the beauty of Bane's character will be his intellect and astounding ability to deceive a Gotham in shock and turmoil to start a revolution. If you go with his comic origin of him in prison at an early age because of his father this would perfectly establish his views on Bruce, Batman and Gotham on a whole (of course no dent act would be passed and Gotham gets worse with Bruce getting lost inside his monster). All of this will take place in a time span of 2 weeks. With Rachel's death Bruce would lose himself in Batman by faking a self imposed exile as Bruce Wayne but going out as Batman (both in costume and ski mask if the mission is too risky) at night while coming too close to being caught for Alfred's liking. This along with Bruce's psychotic behavior causes Alfred to leave as in the original. Bane would then start his assault on Bruce, discover his identity and proceed to toy with him before lowering him out and capturing him (the fight would be an even more intense psychological and physical beat down of Batman). The same day the GCPD capture the real Batman and reveal his identity, John Blake (a firm believer in the Batman) who also figured out Bruce's secret identity by investigating him closely (Blake secretly placed a tracking device on Bruce before his exile so he knows what is going on), anonymously breaks him out of prison during a lynch mob stirred up by Bane and angry Gothamites with the help of two other cops (batman fanatics) and they retreat to the only safe place where no one would find them...the Batcave. Meanwhile Gordon battles to keep the city under control which is slowly descending into chaos because the city wants Batman's head and they are pissed that it is revealed that cops aided his escape. This is where Bane gets impatient because his entire goal was to see Batman and Bruce undone by his very city and with his escape he can't have that which he desired most. He then rallies the citizens and formulates a plan to force Bruce to comeback to Gotham. His forces and support grow and he misleads many in the city into holding their important leaders hostage in a building threatening to kill them all if Batman doesn't return and face their judgment. From the Batcave Bruce recuperates with the aid of Blake and his friends who sneak out for food and supplies and Bruce also is in communication with Gordon and Fox. This is where Gordon decides to help Bruce and retreats to an unknown location and sends a video to Gotham's TV station telling the truth about Harvey which is the incident that started the tainting of the Batman symbol and states that Bruce is innocent and Bane is the culprit behind the entire scheme. Some Gothamites (including policemen who supported Bane) change their position and start revolting against Bane but by now it is too late and he threatens to blow the building (City Hall) if Batman doesn't show up to face him the next day. Bruce enters the city and Bane greets him in front making a final offer to Gotham. Bane reveals that he and his men will release the hostages and hand themselves in if he loses in a man to man fight with Bruce. Secretly he plans to blow it up anyway because he has already lost and won't go back to prison but the mercenary he entrusted with the trigger has lost all hope in his psychotic leader and has a change of heart. He turned himself in and informed the police of the situation. Batman, Bane and the gathered crowd of citizens and cops don't know this (the police have the area barricaded but are afraid to move in fear of a second trigger). An epic fight ensues between Batman and Bane who is the better fighter. Batman however learned from their first match and goes ape**** on Bane defeating him. The police seeing that no detonation has taken place storm the building and over power Bane's helpers who after seeing their leader defeated decide to commit suicide or surrender. Bane has one more trick up his sleeve and he detonates a hidden grenade killing himself and Batman along with some GCPD officers. Although Bruce dies his dramatic example of a playboy billionaire risking his life to secretly exact justice inspires Gotham and his symbol lives on. I would end the movie with the Legend voice over by Raz from the teaser trailer.

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Old 03-25-2013, 11:38 AM   #889
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When you think about it, Talia was smart enough to the point where she didn't need Bane. The failed energy project already put Bruce in his own hell. In fact, she could've kept doing these things "behind the scenes" like Ra's's LOS. Kind of like what Edmond Dantes did to his enemies in The Count of Monte Cristo.
That's true. Knowing who he really is, too, and in his weak cane hobbling state she could simply send a bunch of LOS to Wayne Manor, capture him and toss him in the pit. Didn't need Bane for that.

But that wouldn't have been as interesting to watch as Bane breaking him. But logically they could have achieved the goal they wanted without Bane.

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Old 03-25-2013, 11:46 AM   #890
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I think Talia would have worked better without a secret identity.

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Old 03-25-2013, 01:14 PM   #891
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Talia wanted to keep her identity secret and pretend that somebody else was fully in charge. Thus Bane. Why not get the most capable man she knows to do the job?

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:50 PM   #892
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That's true. Knowing who he really is, too, and in his weak cane hobbling state she could simply send a bunch of LOS to Wayne Manor, capture him and toss him in the pit. Didn't need Bane for that.

But that wouldn't have been as interesting to watch as Bane breaking him. But logically they could have achieved the goal they wanted without Bane.
I don't know about that. In addition to everything Bane brought to the table tactically and physically, he was something of a cult of personality. He authentically felt like a revolutionary leader, which was very important for the later stages of their plan. He was their symbol.

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:58 PM   #893
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I don't know about that. In addition to everything Bane brought to the table tactically and physically, he was something of a cult of personality. He authentically felt like a revolutionary leader, which was very important for the later stages of their plan. He was their symbol.
That's my point, none of that revolutionary stuff was necessary either since it was all false BS. That whole 5 month siege wasn't necessary.

Oh I know they said they wanted to kill Gotham but first they had to feed them false hope to poison their souls blah blah blah. Unnecessary waffle. They'd still be dead whether they died with hope or not. It was empty fluff filler material to give Bruce the time he needed to recover, train, and come back to Gotham.

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Old 03-25-2013, 03:02 PM   #894
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That's my point, none of that revolutionary stuff was necessary either since it was all false BS. That whole 5 month siege wasn't necessary.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:07 PM   #895
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That's my point, none of that revolutionary stuff was necessary either since it was all false BS. That whole 5 month siege wasn't necessary.

Oh I know they said they wanted to kill Gotham but first they had to feed them false hope to poison their souls blah blah blah. Unnecessary waffle. They'd still be dead whether they died with hope or not. It was empty fluff filler material to give Bruce the time he needed to recover, train, and come back to Gotham.
Yup. It's the same as when a villain has the hero at gunpoint and decides to monologue instead of shooting him, just stretched out over months

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Old 03-25-2013, 03:09 PM   #896
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LOL!!! The best thing about that video is not only is it funny but it's true. It shows in simple terms just how stupid Bane's revolution and siege was.

Btw I love Gordon's letter he holds up which says:

'I lied

Sorry,
Gordon'



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Yup. It's the same as when a villain has the hero at gunpoint and decides to monologue instead of shooting him, just stretched out over months
Great analogy lol.

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Old 03-25-2013, 03:26 PM   #897
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And that's even less interesting
At least Ra's wanted something that could "potentially" be for the good of mankind. Those kind of moral gray areas are what make a villain three-dimensional. "I want revenge because you killed my father" is about as not-three-dimensional as you can get.
Lol, I didn't say anything about the idea making Talia interesting. At least with Bane, it was about honoring the woman he protected years ago and being that challenge that Bruce had to go through in the end of the film...Talia was just wanting some revenge and her character was very watered down to the point where she didn't want Bruce to join the LoS and was only some dark mirrored version of Rachel Dawes(and I view Bane to be a dark mirrored version of Bruce, but at least I found Bane to be interesting...him being this protector, him never being able to climb out of the Pit while Bruce did, thus still really being in the Hell that he was born in).

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Old 03-25-2013, 04:03 PM   #898
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That's my point, none of that revolutionary stuff was necessary either since it was all false BS. That whole 5 month siege wasn't necessary.

Oh I know they said they wanted to kill Gotham but first they had to feed them false hope to poison their souls blah blah blah. Unnecessary waffle. They'd still be dead whether they died with hope or not. It was empty fluff filler material to give Bruce the time he needed to recover, train, and come back to Gotham.
Well, our difference in opinion as to what the LoS are truly about in these films are well documented by now. Sparing you the same ol' rant, but it's inevitable that our views on the film are so different since we don't agree about what Ra's was trying to accomplish in BB.

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Old 03-25-2013, 04:10 PM   #899
Brain Damage
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
Lol, I didn't say anything about the idea making Talia interesting. At least with Bane, it was about honoring the woman he protected years ago and being that challenge that Bruce had to go through in the end of the film...Talia was just wanting some revenge and her character was very watered down to the point where she didn't want Bruce to join the LoS and was only some dark mirrored version of Rachel Dawes(and I view Bane to be a dark mirrored version of Bruce, but at least I found Bane to be interesting...him being this protector, him never being able to climb out of the Pit while Bruce did, thus still really being in the Hell that he was born in).
While I do agree that that stuff is symbolically interesting, don't you agree that it would have been more interesting had Bane been a real revolutionary who tears down the system and takes Gotham back from the rich and powerful to give it to the people? The city itself would have probably dissolved into total anarchy (something we only got glimpses of) and the great symbolic twist would have been that it ends up being one of the rich and powerful that saves the city from destroying itself.

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Old 03-25-2013, 04:15 PM   #900
Anno_Domini
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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While I do agree that that stuff is symbolically interesting, don't you agree that it would have been more interesting had Bane been a real revolutionary who tears down the system and takes Gotham back from the rich and powerful to give it to the people? The city itself would have probably dissolved into total anarchy (something we only got glimpses of) and the great symbolic twist would have been that it ends up being one of the rich and powerful that saves the city from destroying itself.
It should have been that way, and it could have if the "front" plan was more developed such as in the second act of TDKR, but I'm perfectly fine with the LoS being used once again. Bane's idea of giving this false hope should have been more developed though while focusing less on the time bomb until the very last part of the final act when it was the main focus after Talia's reveal.

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