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#951 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
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Sometimes I wonder how much more I would have enjoyed these movies had I only known of Tim Burtons work.
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#952 |
4AF
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Ah, well, in that case, fair enough. I mostly just don't understand those who do like TDKReturns and are fine with it there compared to TDKRises' retirement.
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#953 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 237
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Bane's master stroke would include completely breaking Bruce mentally as well as his will to live with the final straw being witnessing Alfred's death at the hands of one of his followers while wearing the cowl. Before this he would slowly start to rile up the citizens of Gotham as a revolutionary for change but without his mask of course stating that the rich and powerful can't be trusted. This is where we really see just how insane, twisted and scary Bane is because of this cult like mentality that he and his followers possess for he then outfits a beaten and hopeless Bruce with his suit, drops him off in front of GCPD headquarters in handcuffs along with Alfred's body with video evidence (the video is done from a POV standpoint of an insane Batman (goon) killing his butler Alfred and showing his secret entrance inside Wayne Manor). Bane also makes it look like Batman decides to cuff himself and turn himself in. From here the city descends into shock and chaos after the discovery of Batman's identity. With Bruce in custody waiting to stand trial, lynch mobs forming, the police investigating and the city demanding Bruce Wayne's head, Bane begins his rise with his message of..."The rich and powerful (like Bruce Wayne) and those in power are all liars and are corrupt feeding off of you the people and it is time for you to take what is rightfully yours..." Something along the lines of the Black gate speech. This is where the new Batman/John Blake is vital to the story with him being a cop strongly suspecting Bruce was Batman and innocent of Dent's murder. He visited Wayne Manor and confronted Bruce (who denied to the end) before he was captured by Bane. Blake visited Wayne Manor during Bruce’s captivity and he felt that something was wrong because Alfred gave him a faint hint but he knew for sure when big news broke. He goes to see Bruce in custody immediately after his capture and Bruce tells him what Bane was up to. Blake then secretly breaks him out with the aid of Gordon and Bruce tells him to get him to Fox and they retreat to the R & D department. More chaos erupts when people learn of Bruce’s escape from police custody and Bane and his followers twist it into….the police commissioner and his corrupt officers have been denying you the murderers head because they are on his side .With Gotham in chaos and the police struggling to keep order with riots and looting beginning to occur, Bane and his men using the cover of the angry mob lead a prison break riling up the inmates to bring down the criminals no better than themselves who locked them up. Bane has now successfully managed to completely ruin Bruce Wayne/Batman and use him as a springboard to send Gotham into chaos while agitating the oppressed into action all the while being an almost invisible force in driving and manipulating the action. I can’t yet think of how Bruce/Batman will rise from this seemingly impossible situation and disappear by faking his death with Gotham being inspired by Bruce Wayne/ the Batman. |
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#954 | |
Newbie First Class
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 26
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#955 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Also, the TDK Returns retirement is a lot more acceptable to begin with because the book is not a sequel to anything while the TDK Rises retirement doesn't really work in the context of the franchise. The first two movies clearly hinted over and over again that this was Batman at the beginning of his career and that he was going to be Batman for a long time. Many things point to this such as: -The first two movies being heavily based on stories that take place in Batman's early years like Year One and The Long Halloween, even dealing with the same themes. -Bruce gravely underestimating the threat to Gotham in Begins. It wasn't Falcone that was the the major threat, it was the LOS. -Bruce not expecting to cause bad inspiration to Gotham via the copycats and the Joker. -The whole theme about escalation and the "freaks" and how more and more have started appearing in Gotham due since Batman's arrival. -Rachel leaving Bruce because she felt he was always going to need Batman. -Rachel, the main reason Bruce wanted to quit being Batman in the first place so that he could be with her and have a normal life, is killed off essentially removing something that held him back. -The Joker saying he and Batman were destined to do battle forever. -Alfred saying Bruce can endure as Batman because he can take it. -Gordon said they were going to hunt Batman because he can take it. -Bruce seeing the man who he thought would be the perfect replacement for Batman be corrupted and brought down to the Joker's level. -Nolan saying in an interview from 2008 that he doesn't want to bring in Robin into the franchise because his version of Batman was still in his early career as Batman thus Robin was still a little kid, which means he wouldn't appear for a "few films". -Nolan saying in some book or interview before TDKR that Bruce's original plan was to be Batman for just a temporary time (couple of years or so) only to learn at some point that "things wouldn't be so easy". These are all just off the top of my head. All these things heavily imply and hint that Nolan's Batman would continue to be Batman for a LONG time even if TDKR would've been the last one in the franchise. One can even argue that based on all of that, Nolan was trying to show how Bruce grows into the role of Batman starting out as being a more grounded Batman like the one in Frank Miller's Batman: Year One to a Batman a lot closer to the Batman from the comics that take place a few years into Batman's career that most fans consider to feature the ideal version of Batman. Heck, if you compare the Batman in BB to the one in TDK, you can see that at the end of TDK is not the same Batman he was at the start of BB or even at the end of BB. Do all those things make the 8 year retirement automatically contradictory? Not necessarily but that is not my point. My point is that although the 8 year retirement may not completely contradict TDK's ending, it is clearly obvious that the 8-year retirement was not something originally planned and that Nolan was setting up something other than that for the third movie. TDKR feels like a backup/second story and as if there was a movie between it and TDK that we missed. It doesn't naturally flow well with TDK like how TDK naturally flew well with BB IMO. This is just my opinion of course, but I think the main reasons for this are 1) Heath Ledger's death not only saddened Nolan immensely but also screwed up a lot of Nolan's plans for the third movie since he didn't want to recast the Joker and 2) This was his last movie and Nolan didn't want WB to touch his franchise after he left so he contrived a plot that featured a Batman that's been retired for 8 years and that retires for good at the end. I hope this helped you gain a better understanding of why I and so many other people are not too fond of the 8 year retirement idea. I can understand why other people don't mind it but personally, it bugs me big time. |
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#956 |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,471
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Whether the 8 year retirement was originally planned or not, I'd like to see the proof that anything alternative was planned.
I really disagree with the whole "TDKR was Plan B" line of thought. I'm not saying it was Plan A, I'm just saying I don't think there was any detailed plan in place while Ledger was still alive. The original plans for the third film were scrapped when TDK was first written. They condensed Harvey's arc and let it play out entirely in TDK, giving it a closed ending. From there, the story could have gone anywhere. Nolan gave himself that freedom by making TDK a stand alone film. Besides, let's say they made a third film without the 8 year gap. Still reasonable to assume the ending would be the same, no? Goyer and Nolan supposedly discussed what the last scene of the trilogy would be during the Begins brainstorms. So Nolan always wanted it to end with Bruce moving on with his life, I think that's inarguable. IMO, the ending would still piss people off cause you'd have Bruce retiring at a young age with a short overall career as Batman. And if you argue that they could have had the 8 year gap with him still being Batman the whole time, but then him retiring at the end wouldn't work nearly as well because it'd be harder pill to swallow if it was the first time we saw him retiring. We'd question it and say that Bruce could never live without Batman. By showing how miserable he was without it in the beginning of TDKR, it gives him a real arc to go on so by the end when you see in at the cafe, you know he's finally at peace and he's done FOR GOOD now. Bottom line, I think for the retirement ending, having him retired in the beginning was the best way to go. It establishes his "default mode" as retirement. He goes through his final journey as Batman and goes from a miserable forced retirement to actually being able to find the will to live beyond Batman and end things on his own terms. Seeing the "bad" retirement helps the payoff of the "good" retirement immensely. |
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#957 |
(A Metal Gear reference)
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,795
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I love how Batman has a 'short career'.
It emphasizes the importance of the symbol, the legend, aspect of it. Almost like the comics were written after this real life event. In the movies, the symbol of Batman fights crime forever, In the comics, Bruce Wayne fights crime forever (since the comics will never stop). |
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#958 | ||||
Banned User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
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#959 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 237
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No! Read it all
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#960 |
4AF
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 11,143
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Shikamaru, I am not going to quote your post since it's long and I don't want to clog this thread but:
What is the different reasons between TDKReturns retirement and TDKRises retirement? In TDKReturns, he retires because the Joker killed Jason and the government created an act to put superheroes into hiding. In TDKRises, Bruce retires because the Joker killed Rachel and the Dent Act was cleaning up the streets. Now, if you don't think it was executed well that's fine. However, my lack of understanding is why the reasoning behind him hanging up his cape and cowl is fine in TDKReturns but not in TDKRises. The reasoning behind the move presented in the film and graphic novel. Hell, Bruce was letting crime rise in Gotham while he laid down the cowl in TDKReturns, so why is it that it's bad if TDKRises lets him lay the cowl to rest for a bit when there is no longer organized crime? Someone brought up Bruce being retired while families get killed in TDKRises, why is it wrong here but fine in TDKReturns? Last edited by Snow Queen; 03-26-2013 at 10:52 PM. |
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#961 |
Third Man
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,573
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Rachel's death had nothing to do with Bruce hanging up the cape and cowl. If it wasn't for the Dent Act, Bruce would have become even more obsessed with being Batman. We see how paranoid he was with the clean energy project which he worked on 3 years before the start of TDKR.
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#962 | ||||||||
Banned User
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Batman Begins - Year One The Dark Knight - The Long Halloween(a sequel to Year One) The Dark Knight Rises - The Dark Knight Returns(some could view it to be part of Miller's world/universe of Batman, and that includes Year One) Quote:
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We also even see a nod to Red Hood in TDKR ![]() Quote:
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#963 | |
4AF
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 11,143
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#964 |
Third Man
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,573
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lol, I see.
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#965 | |||
Side-Kick
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 7,671
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We do know that Ledger was signed on for another movie though. We don't know how much or a major or minor part he would've played but he would've had some sort of presence though. Quote:
Ideas from future sequels were condensed in Begins too, and some from Begins were even moved into TDK but that didn't cause a major shift in Nolan's basic outline. The Joker was still the villain in TDK by the end of the day and BB's ending set this up. Yes, TDK is a stand alone film despite being a sequel but so is BB. Both movies are stand-alone movies but work as part of an overall franchise too. That's why I don't think the whole trilogy works as a natural trilogy like how Star Wars and LOTR do. SW and LOTR were essentially one big story cut into 3 parts while BB and TDK feel and are formatted more like the first 2 stories in an ongoing franchise. Quote:
It was almost never a trilogy either. Nolan wasn't sure whether or not he wanted to come back after BB and then after TDK. Heck, he barely came back after TDK and many people were surprised he did. You also have quotes from him like the one from when he was asked about Robin. He said Robin wouldn't appear for a few movies because Bale was still portraying a "young Batman" and Robin would still be a little kid. It wasn't until TDKR when the whole "this was always meant to be a trilogy!" and "end of the epic trilogy!" thing came along. Like I said earlier, BB and TDK were not building a trilogy but a franchise with themes like the whole "freaks" theme and the whole "this is the young Year One Batman" theme, and if they were supposed to build a trilogy, they did not succeed at that IMO because it is not a proper three-act trilogy. As for the 8 year gap, I disagree. You could've still had him operate as Batman during those 8 years and him quitting at the end would've worked a lot better because it would've felt like he fully earned retirement after 9 overall years of being Batman and going on tons of battles as opposed to just 3 or 4 of them. I think so many more people would've accepted the ending a lot more if Nolan did that. As for people being pissed off if Nolan would've had Bruce retire so young at so early in his career, that goes back to the point I made before. BB and TDK were setting up a franchise and heavily implied over and over again that Bruce would be Batman for a long time. I don't think there was anyone that would disagree with this prior to TDKR coming out. Nolan knew this so he had to contrive a story that takes place several years after BB and TDK in which Bruce does not operate as Batman and retires for good at the end just so that he could justify to WB ending a Batman franchise about a very young Batman so soon and to make sure they don't continue his franchise after Nolan left. And while I wouldn't have wanted the franchise to continue after Nolan left and wished we lived in the perfect world where WB respects Nolan's wishes to not milk his franchise and just reboot, I don't think Nolan is any better for doing what he did and for why he did it. And finally, why do you keep insisting that it just HAD to end with Bruce retiring? Who says it must end that way? Excluding the fact that I don't buy that he would ever retire until he's at least an old man based on everything in BB and TDK, Bruce retiring the way he did and leaving Gotham for good completely flies in the face of the essence of Batman. Part of what makes Batman one of the greatest superheroes of all time is his motivation and commitment to his mission. He is the last superhero to ever quit like that. That's why I find the ending to have one of the biggest anti-Batman messages I've ever seen in anything. It really surprises me that so many fans are ok with it. There are also ways to give Bruce a happy ending without flying the face of the essence of Batman. Bruce has a very different perspective on life than you and I do. What he consider to be a happy life is not what he would consider to be a happy life and vice versa but it wouldn't matter as long as it makes Bruce happy. Frank Miller managed to make Bruce retire and give him a happy ending in The Dark Knight Returns without going against the essence of Batman like Nolan did. Bruce fakes his death and retires at the end of TDK Returns but he doesn't just abandon Gotham to go party with a hot chick. He is retired but at the same time, he passes on his Batman persona to the "Sons of the Batman" by training them and preparing them to continue his legacy in Gotham. The last line in the book is "This will be a good life. Good enough." That is the way to do a proper retirement for Batman. Miller managed to make him retire without having Bruce being like "**** it. I quit. Let's go party in Europe, Selina! Here are the keys to the Batcave, Robin. You're own your own by the way." What would've been in character for Bruce was for him to retire but prepare Blake for continuing his legacy. What he does instead is leave Gotham when Gotham is in a worse condition than it was both at the end of BB and at the end of TDK and just leaves Blake on his own. He doesn't train him or prepare him in any way. He completely leaves him on his own to protect Gotham in a Dent Act-less Gotham. He has no way of knowing whether or not Blake will continue the Batman legacy, whether or not he will survive out there for long since he doesn't give him any training, or whether or not someone like the Joker will come along and corrupt Blake just like how Harvey was corrupted. It's the same thing as your father giving you the car keys at the age of 15 or 16 when you first learned to drive but instead of actually showing you anything, he just gives you the keys and tells you you're on your own then runs off with your mom to a party. That is essentially what Bruce did. On top of that, he barely even knows Blake and only had like 3 scenes with him yet he gives him the mantle. It really surprises me how people are not able to see all these problems in the ending. Let's also not forget that the entire message of the movie is that lying is bad even when it is for the greater good. Everyone that lied at the end of TDK (Batman, Gordon, Alfred, etc.) gets to suffer the consequences in TDKR despite their intentions, yet the ending is literally Bruce lying by saying the autopilot doesn't work and by faking his death. |
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#966 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Apr 2010
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As for all your other questions, I would love to explain everything in full detail but it is 12:30 AM where I live and I'm really tired after writing that long response to BatLobsterRises. Luckily, I have a friend that did a 3-part video on this exact topic ![]() I don't exactly remember where he talked about the retirement part so I'll post the whole review. |
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#967 | |
4AF
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 11,143
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Oh, of course. Have a nice sleep! I'll be sure to give the review a watch another time, I'm watching V For Vendetta at the moment. |
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#968 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 237
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#969 | |||
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,471
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1. I think you're taking Nolan far too literally about the Robin not appearing for a few movies quote. Yes, Nolan said that but did anyone ever really take that to mean Nolan wanted to setup a franchise that would have an infinite number of films? The whole idea of Batman setting up a larger Batman universe that could expand film after film died with Harvey Dent IMO. The Robin quote is just a jokey way of saying that he didn't have any plans to use Robin. He also joked about Frankie Munez playing the role. 2. All I can say is I whole heartedly disagree, I think The Dark Knight trilogy fits the three act trilogy like a glove, and it's my favorite trilogy of all time. A big part of why is because it wasn't all planned out from the beginning, yet it feels so natural. It was allowed to grow with the actors as the filmmakers as it went along. But, really, how can you deny that there was the skeleton of a trilogy from the start based on these quotes: Quote:
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I'm sorry, but unless you're calling Nolan a liar, it's all right there. He's admitting that they put all their ideas into each film as they went but at the same time it's clear that there was a rough idea to do a trilogy, and that it would have a definite ending. I don't buy this idea that they were setting up an ongoing franchise. A LOT of fans were thinking of this in terms of a trilogy too from the start. I don't know how anyone could have been blindsided by that. Nolan's a storyteller, not a hired gun who was just building a franchise for WB to later exploit. And with regards to Star Wars, plenty changed along the way. Obi-Wan was not originally supposed to die in Episode IV, which is what led to the creation of Yoda. Luke and Leia were not originally meant to be twins. That's just naming a couple of big ones, but rest assured plenty of blanks of the specifics were filled along the way. I just think this "they didn't plan all three movies from the start so it's not a real trilogy" is bogus. You didn't like the direction they went for TDKR, that's fine. But I think some TDKR critics just try too hard in their attempts to understand what "went wrong", and paint this picture of TDKR being this movie that was never supposed to happen. It was completely organic. A product of team Nolan's creative process and them living and breathing the story as it was being told. I don't think the trilogy would be any more "valid" if they had plotted out all three movies in 2004. I think that'd be way more contrived actually. Furthermore, with regards to the ending...look, I get where you're coming from. But I don't like the attitude that people who like the ending don't get what Batman's all about and "oh the true Batman wouldn't do this or that". This was a specific interpretation of the mythos. Its own thing. I took it in as such. IMO, after everything Bruce did for Gotham he more than earned his retirement. It has nothing to do with the amount of nights spent in the cowl. He gave his city everything- mind, body and spirit. This is the one version of the mythos where we had the opportunity to see Bruce get an actual GOOD happy ending, not a "good enough" one. And I applaud Nolan for having the balls to do it. Having been a Batman fan for my whole life, this shot warms my heart like you can't imagine. Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
We may go the rest of our lives without ever seeing that again in a Batman story. This series took us to some very, very dark places and then gave us a real sense of triumph at the end. This has nothing to do with "what Batman would do" or being a purist about the character. It has to do with the raw emotional reaction of sitting there in the movie theater, putting aside my personal ideas and preconceptions about Batman and just going where the movie took me. And I loved where it took me. It took me to unexpected places. And the idea of the darkest hero of them all being able to actually rise above the tragedy that dominated his life is incredibly inspiring to me. Last edited by BatLobsterRises; 03-27-2013 at 04:30 AM. |
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#970 |
Newbie First Class
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 26
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Too many long posts to quote. But it is clear that Nolan intended for Bruce to hang up the cape. He's been quoted as saying they'd envisioned the ending of the film years before. I think the idea in BB where Bruce says that the symbol can be everlasting proves that point that they had an idea of Bruce passing along the Batman to someone else. But I also think that it is correct that Rises was not the original story that he intended to tell exactly how Bruce retired. As mentioned numerous times, Ledgers death changed the storyline. Nolan had to create something to account for his not wanting to mention the Joker.
The "truth" is in the middle. But for some of us Rises works, for others it didn't in regards to getting Bruce to that end. Last edited by BCDawg97; 03-27-2013 at 07:15 AM. |
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#971 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 19,612
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Yes, that's exactly what I meant.
Right down to the Bane waring the cowl and ordering room service... It's been mentioned that Bruce losing Rachel and Batman losing Robin are equivalent catalysts. I don't think so. For starters, it's conceivable that Bruce could blame himself for Rachel, the public servant's, death in someway, though I don't see Gordan having any right or ground to point the finger in an honest discussion outside of the idea that the Jokers actions are somehow Batman's fault(not true). With Robin, it could very easily be argued that Batman is the direct cause of the minor's death. 1. He let and inspired the minor put on a yellow suit and run around illegally fighting super psycho mass serial killers...ad not always under his watch(kinda like an assistant DA but not really). 2. Batman could have put Joker down for many many many years prior to Todd's death. It's a fickle moral argument but the point has been made. Unlike in TDK, batman didn't have any chances at the joker before the fact. 3. Even for a partner Batman knew the boy was reckless..etc As for the other reason. Gotham hunting batman vs a Presidential order are two different things. For one, Superman isn't a factor in the former. Not that either "should" stop The Batman, but for arguments sake, they aren't the same. The "Dent Act." Just because the "law" stops representing Justice doesn't mean dick all when it comes to batman's (non present) rogues, what does the likes of the joker think about a dent act? Low level crime is what the cops are good at anyways ![]() Something that sets Returns apart from the nolan trilogy. "Batman first faces Harvey Dent, who was believed to be cured of Two-Face's evil half after a successful plastic surgery operation. Dent holds the city for ransom with a bomb. When Batman defeats Dent, he discovers that while the man outside resembles the good Dent, the man inside is only the evil half." Two face should have been saved later, how he responds to the Dent act is a missed opportunity. Returns has Bruce "retire" at 45 and succumb to alcohol(hey, it was written in the 80's). After a life times worth of "crap." TDK has him "retire" in his prime cause "Gotham's street's are clean" and "the love of his life" was killed. As for the stories themselves DKR vs TDKR...the joker aspect alone is enough to tip the scales imo. Just think of it this way, if tmr, the DC editors mandated that the "Dent act" was enacted and let's just say Vicky Vale or some non costumed loved died in the books...and the cops were out to get batman. Would that elicit a Batman retirement? And would the readers comply? I personally think this is why the readers find the films falling short. I don't find the stories all that equivalent, but again, Nolan has that effect.
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"I care because filmmakers now make films under crippling security because of parasitic gossip. makes movies worse" -James Mangold. |
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#972 |
Banned User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
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Batman retired only because of the Dent Act.
Bruce Wayne didn't move on because of Rachel dying. |
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#973 |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,471
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No, you don't know that at all. It's just left unsaid. Joker could've been executed for all we know, that would be the most "realistic" outcome.
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#974 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto
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"I care because filmmakers now make films under crippling security because of parasitic gossip. makes movies worse" -James Mangold. |
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#975 |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,911
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TDK suggested the same. "You'll be in a padded cell forever"
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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