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Old 03-27-2013, 04:20 PM   #976
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Batman is not the judicial system though, he can't predict what will actually happen to him.

Joker killed MANY cops. The death penalty would certainly be on the table if it was legal in Gotham. He could have also potentially been tried as a federal criminal. The prosecution would be trying to prove that he was fully cognizant of his actions at every turn, and it took the mind of a criminal genius to plot out what he did. Oh sure, Joker would plead insanity but if you're looking at it realistically, it would be a very long trial with a lot of questions in the air.

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Old 03-27-2013, 04:23 PM   #977
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Batman is not the judicial system though, he can't predict what will actually happen to him.
Batman is just the mouth piece telling the audience the inevitable fate of the Joker.

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Joker killed MANY cops. The death penalty would certainly be on the table. The prosecution would be trying to prove that he was fully cognizant of his actions at every turn, and it took the mind of a criminal genius to plot out what he did. Oh sure, Joker would plead insanity but if you're looking at it realistically, it would be a very long trial with a lot of questions in the air.
Hannibal Lecter killed loads of people by eating them. He ended up in an asylum. He was as smart as they come, educated, refined, a successful shrink, but he just had a taste for flesh.

Joker dressed like a clown, had smile scars that could be self inflicted, posts torture videos on TV, plays psycho mind games with ferries full of people, Jokerizes the faces of his victims, turns a city into chaos by threatening to blow up a hospital just because he wants to keep Batman around for fun, and burns huge piles of money.

Not to mention everyone and their mother calls him crazy or a psychopath at some point in the movie.

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Old 03-27-2013, 04:39 PM   #978
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Not to mention everyone and their mother calls him crazy or a psychopath at some point in the movie.
And that gives them all Ph.Ds? He's crazy like a fox, as they say.

Joker, to me this is just like the child spy argument that you were making about the Ra's/Talia thing. I'm not going to pretend the death penalty doesn't exist in this world and that it wouldn't be a possibility for someone like The Joker. I'm not even trying to argue that it IS what happened to him, I'm just saying it's as much a possibility as anything, especially when you're dealing with a cop killer, and someone with hundreds if not thousands of attempted murder charges. A full-on domestic terrorist. I like the novel's idea about him being the last Arkham inmate. But as per the movies, we have no concrete way of knowing what happened to The Joker...other than that he wasn't in Blackgate.

Semi-related, but a lot of what's going on with the James Holmes case now has to do with whether he will plead insanity or not as an attempt to avoid the death penalty. But if he does, it will go under heavy scrutiny and could backfire.

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Old 03-27-2013, 04:52 PM   #979
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And that gives them all Ph.Ds? He's crazy like a fox, as they say.
No, it's Nolan's trademark exposition telling the audience that the Joker is crazy.

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Joker, to me this is just like the child spy argument that you were making about the Ra's/Talia thing. I'm not going to pretend the death penalty doesn't exist in this world and that it wouldn't be a possibility for someone like The Joker. I'm not even trying to argue that it IS what happened to him, I'm just saying it's as much a possibility as anything, especially when you're dealing with a cop killer, and someone with hundreds if not thousands of attempted murder charges. A full-on domestic terrorist. I like the novel's idea about him being the last Arkham inmate. But as per the movies, we have no concrete way of knowing what happened to The Joker...other than that he wasn't in Blackgate.
I'm not arguing it's impossible either. I'm arguing what is the most likely given everything we were shown and TOLD in TDK. Nolan bent over backwards to let the audience know Joker was crazy, even having Batman throw in a line about Joker ending up in a padded cell at the end. It doesn't matter if he killed Cops or not. Lecter killed Cops. Plenty of psychos have killed Cops and ended up in a padded room.

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Semi-related, but a lot of what's going on with the James Holmes case now has to do with whether he will plead insanity or not as an attempt to avoid the death penalty. But if he does, it will go under heavy scrutiny and could backfire.
I've no idea who that is or the ins and outs of the case, but I doubt who ever he is that his list of crazy antics doesn't even match to Joker's.

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Old 03-27-2013, 04:53 PM   #980
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Realistically, batman ends up in jail after the central intelligence get a hold of his paper work as it moves up the judicial ranks.

In the Batman universe(even nolan has to play), the mentally unstable costumed folk end up in an Asylum. Hell even Falcone ended up there.

To think joker would stand trail for more than 4 days is beyond anything in the comics...and for good reason.

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Old 03-27-2013, 04:54 PM   #981
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:55 PM   #982
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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I've no idea who that is or the ins and outs of the case, but I doubt who ever he is that his list of crazy antics doesn't even match to Joker's.
He's the sick bastard responsible for the Colorado shootings last July.

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Old 03-27-2013, 04:57 PM   #983
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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No, it's Nolan's trademark exposition telling the audience that the Joker is crazy.



I'm not arguing it's impossible either. I'm arguing what is the most likely given everything we were shown and TOLD in TDK. Nolan bent over backwards to let the audience know Joker was crazy, even having Batman throw in a line about Joker ending up in a padded cell at the end.
Okay, fair enough. Though I tend to think Joker's "No, I'm not." is one of his more honest moments in the film. I think Joker was too aware and too calculating to be considered truly insane, but then again the "super sane" interpretation has always been a preferred one for me. A sociopath for sure, but that doesn't make him insane.

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I've no idea who that is or the ins and outs of the case, but I doubt who ever he is that his list of crazy antics doesn't even match to Joker's.
It's the Aurora shooter, the guy who identified himself as "The Joker" and showed up in court with his hair dyed. That's why I brought him up. Obviously it's no comparison to the fictional character, but it seemed relevant to bring him up as he's the most current real life parallel.

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Old 03-27-2013, 04:57 PM   #984
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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I've no idea who that is or the ins and outs of the case, but I doubt who ever he is that his list of crazy antics doesn't even match to Joker's.
Actually they kinda do, unfortunately.

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Old 03-27-2013, 04:58 PM   #985
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He's the sick bastard responsible for the Colorado shootings last July.
Oh that guy. Well he should definitely not skate on an insanity plea.

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Old 03-27-2013, 05:01 PM   #986
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Okay, fair enough. Though I tend to think Joker's "No, I'm not." is one of his more honest moments in the film. I think Joker was too aware and too calculating to be considered truly insane, but then again the "super sane" interpretation has always been a preferred one for me. A sociopath for sure, but that doesn't make him insane.
Naturally he would deny he was crazy to the mob. He was trying to sell his services to them and get them to see things his way over the Batman problem. He admits he's crazy to Batman at the end remember: "I took Gotham's White Knight and I brought him down to OUR level. It wasn't hard. See madness as you know is like gravity. All it takes is a little push".

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Actually they kinda do, unfortunately.
No, they don't. As terrible as those theater shootings were, it's no comparison to what Joker did to a whole city.

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Old 03-27-2013, 05:03 PM   #987
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

To be fair, I kind of think The Joker is beyond simple definitions of "crazy" and "sane". He sees the world differently, but to him he's the only one who "gets the joke" and thinks everyone else is crazy for not being crazy...if that makes sense.

That's why he's such a great character. You could make a compelling argument for either case.

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Old 03-28-2013, 02:39 PM   #988
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I just wanted to ask you guys on your thoughts on something.
I have been thinking about this for a while now (a bit too much time on my hands) and this concerns the final chapter of the Dark Knight trilogy, as in "Rises". I loved it when I went to see it. Stunned by the visuals and performances. Hardy as Bane was incredible and Bale gave hands down his best performance, as did everyone else! Yet the more I think on it, the more i realized that there was something wrong with it and I think you guys must have noticed it to. The story wasn't finished.

Now don't get me wrong! I really love the Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy, it's one of my favourites BUT it should have been four films. As in four points to bring Bruce Wayne full circle! Hardy as Bane was a powerhouse performance but his reveal as a love struck henchman was a total miss-step in my opinion. Marion Cotiliard as Talia al Ghul was completely underused and could have been so much more. She needed to have been Bruce Waynes actual girlfriend from the start of Rises and a chance for Bruce to live happily, finally.
Miranda Tate reveals herself near the end as Talia, but instead they could have left that reveal until the very end of the film, when she flees Gotham and lives to fight another day. Batman did NOT need to "die" and could have ended Rises with him asking Robin in the cave "if he was ready to begin?" (like Ras al Ghul did to Wayne). Batman had YEARS of training with ninjas (under Liam freaking Neeson).

Blake was a policeman, and now he is suddenly supposed to be BATMAN? He would be dead in days! They should have then set the fourth and final film with Batman and Robin (who is now trained by Bruce himself) struggling to fight Talia and her army. She then reveals that she was pregnant and now they have a young son, Damian. By the end of it, Talia would have been defeated, Robin would have truly earned his place as the new Batman, and Bruce Wayne would step down to be a father to his son, Damian. FULL CIRCLE!

Nolan is no doubt a brilliant story-teller and filmmaker but he really missed something there. Perhaps he simply wanted to move on and make more films like Inception (and I'm ok with that frankly!). Who knows what the DC universe holds, but all I do know is God help the man who follows Mr Nolan.

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Old 03-28-2013, 11:32 PM   #989
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Here are the changes I'd make.


- No League of Shadows

- No Talia

- Bane is his own man with his own agenda, perhaps a true liberator that escaped a hellish prison, becomes a mercenary, pursues Batman and Gotham to break and own/lead. Perhaps an ex-league of shadows member, like Bruce. Have him escaping the pit as a child to mirror Bruce Wayne's experience with the bats and well. He knows that Batman is an equal opponent and respects him, but he stands in his way and must rally the city (which isn't hard to do since Batman is a "villain" now)

- Bane isn't a villain "per se", certainly not the mustache twirling evil thing we see in TDKR. He's the antagonist, but you can sort of relate to what he's trying to achieve, especially when you consider his upbringing (innocent child who serves and is punished for a crime he didn't commit). His life mirrors Bruce Wayne, as his upbringing consists of coming up from nothing, whereas Bruce had everything at his disposal to succeed. Bane is a self made man.

- More Selina Kyle/Catwoman, especially important to Bruce Wayne

- No clean energy bomb/nuclear weapon crap

- No 8 year plot device

- No "Harvey Dent Days" or "Harvey Dent Acts", Dent's name is simply untarnished and the people he put away remain locked up. Explain how Batman and Gordon's decision worked for the possibility of a brighter future

- Batman is a scapegoat for all the cities pain and suffering, the final straw. The city has had enough after what the Joker has put them through and everyone wants Batman's head and everyone's doors are getting knocked down for the "bastard that killed Dent". They trusted Batman, so for him to turn on him puts them at odds with the police department as well (who let him work with them). So there's pressure on Gordon and the GCPD to apprehend the vigilante known as Batman. And they have a few leads and know that he's simply a man . . .

- Batman's last appearance wasn't "that night", it took a while for the city to get "cleaned up". Rachel's death sent Bruce into a darker, downward spiral (we saw hints of this seeing how far he'd go with the Sonar concept "beautiful, isn't it"), he's in full Batman mode now. For his life to have meaning after Rachel's death, he feels compelled to be OUT there, even going after the pettiest of crimes just to have purpose. Thomas and Martha Wayne as well as Rachel were the catalysts for Batman, and now they're both gone. All Bruce has left is Alfred and Batman. Batman and crime is like a compulsion, a drug that is forever gnawing at him. He doesn't care about a "normal life", he's frozen in time as Batman. The "live long enough to see yourself become the villain" has gotten to his head, and he's become more darker than ever. He still won't take a life, but his tactics have been much more ruthless, cold, and calculating. He doesn't even need Fox's or Alfred's help anymore.

- He's pursuing a thief called "the Cat", Catwoman, who appears to be an obstacle Batman is having trouble in dealing with

- Batman is taking a toll on his life as Bruce Wayne, which is upsetting Alfred (who once believed in the persona that Bruce had built). Bruce seems to be on the edge of "getting lost in this monster of his". Selina Kyle enters Wayne's life and appears to be a new chance for a normal life. Alfred takes notice.

- Show Batman being hunted down by Gordon and the GCPD

- With the mob defeated, and most involved in organized crime put away (Batman and Gordon's plan worked, Dent's accusations stick) they concentrate all efforts on Batman, Gordon is getting worried because the chases are starting to get out of his hands and they're getting closer and closer to apprehending the Batman (Bruce is severely injured, the closest he's been to death yet), even despite Gordon's warnings/communication to Batman. There are even bounties on Batman's head.


- Enter Bane, the mercenary who comes in to take down Batman for the "good of Gotham City", people seem to respect this "unsung hero". He vows to bring the Dark Knight to justice and take him down.


- Gordon's apprehensive nature of capturing Batman hasn't gone unnoticed by Gotham, Bane and the GCPD (Gordon secretly communicates with Batman), they question him and consider him a traitor and want him to resign. His family can't take it anymore. The city is also baffled as to why Batman hasn't killed anyone and is seemingly continuing his quest to eradicate crime (Batman has been as covert as he possibly can, having regained an almost monstrous, terrifying new reputation, like the Batman Begins days)


- The truth about Dent emerges, Blackgate and Arkham have experience a break in that tires Batman out (who has been combating the injuries the GCPD have given him), Batman is broken/defeated by Bane Bane takes control of the city (he's been planning it for years)

- Alfred killed? Fox?

- Bruce is practically crippled, his war on the mob, on crime, against the League of Shadows, the Joker, freaks being hunted, and beaten by Bane has taken it's toll. He's lost pretty much everything but his name and company (that others want to desperately take over/take down). He's also at odds with himself (his Batman and Bruce persona) because he's discovered the woman he loves, Selina Kyle is a criminal, but Batman is against crime. Does he turn her in?

- Gordon is in a similar situation, having lost pretty much everything, including his reputation. He's at his lowest.

- Selina Kyle is also having the same problems, especially with Gotham the way it is. Is she Selina Kyle, the ascending social climber or Catwoman, the criminal jewel thief.

- Gotham is in chaos and panic, people are acting like caged animals. More in depth depiction of class wars?

- The city is pillaged, but there is a clear divide (there are people inspired by Batman, Gordon, Dent, for the forces of good)

- Years go by and Gotham is slowly rotting again

- Bane steps up, finalizing his plan after orchestrating everything and controls the city with his own laws, much like TDKR but there is no nuclear threat. He uses brute force, strategy, his army and the city's pain to spread his ideals and power

- Gordon, after being injured and in terrible condition by a lynch mob, urges Batman to come back (after not seeing his friend for years)

- Bruce has to get back in the game, Gotham needs him more than ever. He must retrain, reheal, and relearn what he learned to take down Bane

- Batman defeats Bane

- Bruce Wayne helps "rebuild" Gotham brick for brick.


- In the end, maybe the Batman persona is sacrificed for the city too, a relentless symbol of fear, justice and to be inspired by. He puts the cowl and cape away. But Bruce Wayne still remains and gets to live a happy life (maybe with Kyle). He does what he should have done all along, focus his priorities on the city with his wealth to combat the poverty that creates crime and hopelessness (which helps create crime) Bruce Wayne can also be a symbol of hope as he pours himself into philanthropy like his father.


Or maybe he finally finds balance between both personas and if the city should happen to need a Batman, he'll be there.
Very nice. Now that's a plot I would have liked to see. Much, much better than what we got.

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Old 03-28-2013, 11:47 PM   #990
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

As much as I wish the legend of Bane being born in the prison, instead of Talia, were true, having Ra's save both Bruce and Bane from a prison and being emotionally lost is far too good a parallel to pass up.

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Old 03-29-2013, 12:22 AM   #991
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As much as I wish the legend of Bane being born in the prison, instead of Talia, were true, having Ra's save both Bruce and Bane from a prison and being emotionally lost is far too good a parallel to pass up.
Good call.

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Old 03-29-2013, 12:28 AM   #992
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As much as I wish the legend of Bane being born in the prison, instead of Talia, were true, having Ra's save both Bruce and Bane from a prison and being emotionally lost is far too good a parallel to pass up.
Oh, definitely. I don't think I'd personally enjoy TDKR as much if the LoS wasn't in the film as to me, it just fit that the LoS were brought back. And Bruce and Bane having all these parallels as well as Talia even being a dark mirrored version of Rachel was a nice touch to end the trilogy.

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Old 03-29-2013, 06:33 AM   #993
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I would certainly have wanted Bane to be the sole leader of the operation. The revelation of Talia just makes Bane come off as far lesser character than you had thought up to that point and Talia herself didn't really bring anything interesting in herself. Not that she really had time to do it either.

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Old 03-29-2013, 07:02 AM   #994
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I don't like Nolan's style that brings to Batman, so I cannot suggest anything that would change to make them better.

Maybe if the script was tightened up a lot and many useless characters and subplots deleted it might have been more coherent. In that case I would eliminate Robin, Catwoman, the police guy played by Matthew Modine, and a bunch of other useless characters. I would give the Catwoman role to Talia. Make Dagget a Max Schreck like villain representing the evil corporate interests of Gotham City (instead what we got was just some douchebag). Don't have Batman retiring, that's just dumb. Get rid of the 'Harvey Dent Act' because that doesn't make sense (how is there no more crime?). Give Bane back his Venom, instead of painkillers (LAME). Don't have Batman fake his death. Show more of the anarchy in Gotham.

A bunch of things, really. Most everything was done wrong in this movie..

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Old 03-29-2013, 08:51 AM   #995
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I don't like Nolan's style that brings to Batman, so I cannot suggest anything that would change to make them better.

Maybe if the script was tightened up a lot and many useless characters and subplots deleted it might have been more coherent. In that case I would eliminate Robin, Catwoman, the police guy played by Matthew Modine, and a bunch of other useless characters. I would give the Catwoman role to Talia. Make Dagget a Max Schreck like villain representing the evil corporate interests of Gotham City (instead what we got was just some douchebag). Don't have Batman retiring, that's just dumb. Get rid of the 'Harvey Dent Act' because that doesn't make sense (how is there no more crime?). Give Bane back his Venom, instead of painkillers (LAME). Don't have Batman fake his death. Show more of the anarchy in Gotham.

A bunch of things, really. Most everything was done wrong in this movie..
Thanks for the post. At least you'll always have the Schumacher films...

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Old 03-29-2013, 09:34 AM   #996
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I wouldn't change much in the Nolan Trilogy except for:

Batman's voice in TDK & TDKR.... they should have kept it on the level of Batman Begins, the Batman voice was just right in that film.

At the end of TDKR, instead of John Blake's legal name being Robin, it should have been Richard Grayson. Granted most people might not have gotten the name, but us hardcore fans would have, and it would have been a nice nod to us

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Old 03-29-2013, 11:46 AM   #997
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Would you really want that?

"You should use your full name. I like it. Dick."

That scene would have played out very differently.

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Old 03-29-2013, 01:32 PM   #998
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Would you really want that?

"You should use your full name. I like it. Dick."

That scene would have played out very differently.
Lol, I thought the same thing.

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Old 03-29-2013, 02:16 PM   #999
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Imagine an ACTUAL court scene of the Joker's trial if Ledger was still around for a third Batman film. How he'd make a mockery of it, the funny gestures and ticks, cleverly outsmarting everyone with a clever tongue, chilling with his attorney, challenging the jury, getting the insanity plea, bringing up Batman, possibly Dent.

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Old 03-29-2013, 02:20 PM   #1000
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Imagine an ACTUAL court scene of the Joker's trial if Ledger was still around for a third Batman film. How he'd make a mockery of it, the funny gestures and ticks, cleverly outsmarting everyone with a clever tongue, chilling with his attorney, challenging the jury, getting the insanity plea, bringing up Batman, possibly Dent.
That would have been glorious.

Judge: "You may cross examine the defendant"
Joker: "Oh I hope it won't be a CROSS examination"


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