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Old 03-29-2013, 01:30 PM   #1
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:30 PM   #2
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Default In hindsight what changes would you do

What changes would you do to the trilogy? For me I would have got rid of Rachel as a love interest and added Miranda Tate/Talia as the love interest late into Begins or early on in TDK. This would've made the Talia reveal a lot more impactful.

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Old 03-29-2013, 01:30 PM   #3
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I would certainly have wanted Bane to be the sole leader of the operation. The revelation of Talia just makes Bane come off as far lesser character than you had thought up to that point and Talia herself didn't really bring anything interesting in herself. Not that she really had time to do it either.
I didn't find Bane to be less interesting at all. I felt the opposite because Bane finally felt human whereas he only felt like this beast with zero emotions. We didn't need a brute version of Joker(since he had no feelings in TDK).

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I don't like Nolan's style that brings to Batman, so I cannot suggest anything that would change to make them better.

Maybe if the script was tightened up a lot and many useless characters and subplots deleted it might have been more coherent. In that case I would eliminate Robin, Catwoman, the police guy played by Matthew Modine, and a bunch of other useless characters. I would give the Catwoman role to Talia. Make Dagget a Max Schreck like villain representing the evil corporate interests of Gotham City (instead what we got was just some douchebag). Don't have Batman retiring, that's just dumb. Get rid of the 'Harvey Dent Act' because that doesn't make sense (how is there no more crime?). Give Bane back his Venom, instead of painkillers (LAME). Don't have Batman fake his death. Show more of the anarchy in Gotham.

A bunch of things, really. Most everything was done wrong in this movie..
A type of medication that one has to inhale is lame...but Venom isn't? Lol.

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Would you really want that?

"You should use your full name. I like it. Dick."

That scene would have played out very differently.
The woman says "I like it. Dick." while licking her lips :lmao:

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Imagine an ACTUAL court scene of the Joker's trial if Ledger was still around for a third Batman film. How he'd make a mockery of it, the funny gestures and ticks, cleverly outsmarting everyone with a clever tongue, chilling with his attorney, challenging the jury, getting the insanity plea, bringing up Batman, possibly Dent.
The only way I could think of Joker being on trial is if they held Dent becoming Two-Face until the third film, but if not...I don't think we would have seen Joker on trial in the threequel. But, Joker being on trial regardless would be a very interesting idea indeed.


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Old 03-29-2013, 01:42 PM   #4
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The only way I could think of Joker being on trial is if they held Dent becoming Two-Face until the third film, but if not...I don't think we would have seen Joker on trial in the threequel. But, Joker being on trial regardless would be a very interesting idea indeed.

If Ledger were still alive (I think his contract was for multiple films too), I could see that being the way to start of Nolan's third Batman film or somewhere in there.

The Joker being "held accountable" for his crimes against the city. It'd be a completely different story/film too. Who the hell knows.

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Old 03-29-2013, 01:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

I don't know, maybe I suppose. I just think since they had the trial idea when they were going to turn Dent into Two-Face in the third film, that a trial idea could have been scrapped all together.

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Old 03-29-2013, 03:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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I didn't find Bane to be less interesting at all. I felt the opposite because Bane finally felt human whereas he only felt like this beast with zero emotions. We didn't need a brute version of Joker(since he had no feelings in TDK).
It's a subjective issue so it can suit some well and others less so. I just didn't feel that it gave anything positive and I also felt that it got too little time to make Talia interesting. Such a twist should ideally make you go "oh ****" when things get even worse than you though but in my view that never happened. I also felt that the conviction to the cause that Bane had displayed was hollowed out since his primary drive was love rather than the belief that he was doing the right thing.

Other than that I liked that the idea that the mastermind and the muscle of the operation was the same person. As for the comparison to the Joker I think that Bane is more the brute version of Ra's al Ghul. They share an idea and method while The Joker seems like focused insanity. That's just my opinion though and I'm fine with that everyone won't share it.

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Old 03-29-2013, 08:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

Things that I wanted to see...
1. Bruce going back to the "Begins" suit in the finale. I just loved that suit.
2. More gratuitous shots of Selina Kyle's bum.
3. Better death scene for Barsad (Bane's primary henchman).
4. Complete exclusion of the John Blake character.
5. Crowbar Talia calling Batman, "beloved." (BTW, still peeved that Liam never called Batman, "Detective" in Begins and Rises).
6. Even more gratuitous shots of Selina Kyle's bum.
7. Exclusion of exaggerated healing items (ie: knee brace, magic rope).
8. New Batmobile!
9. Better fight scene at the end between Bats and Bane.
10. More of Anne on the Catpod.. what happened to shots of the Catpod flying down the steps of city hall amidst the chaos?

Seriously, I could write more, but in the end, this was a solid film. Though I still believe Batman Begins is the definitive Batman film to date.

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Old 03-29-2013, 08:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

The BB suit wouldn't be able to hold up under the scrutiny of daylight for the final battle. While I love the BB suit, it looks it's best at night, in darkness. Whereas the TDK suit can look great in either light or the dark.

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

Agree with A LOT OF THIS!!

Better Batman voice

More Batman

No Robin

No kneebrace

No Talia as a surprise

Bane is not a henchmen

No nukes/autopilot

Batman would not EVER EVER take 8 years off

More of the Gordon/Batman relationship

No 'The Bat' but a much better non-spaceship looking aircraft--more like the 1989 Batwing

visable Bat logo

more Catwoman relationship development

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:36 PM   #10
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

So I recently sat down and watched TDKR again, and I still love it and it's still the best film of Nolan's trilogy in my eyes, but I can't help but continue to think what could have been if either Nolan had more time(damn you IMAX!!! ) or had two parts, so I decided to just create some additional ideas on what I would have done in having two parts of the threequel(thus staying in tune with the IMAX time restraints). While others have just listed some ideas that could make the film seem much longer which wouldn't work because of the use of IMAX, having two films would be the best best, imo(once again, and I repeat, because of IMAX...with every positive, there is a negative I suppose...)

Keep in mind that I am perfectly fine with the plot of TDKR, so I wouldn't make huge changes, and only just additional ideas.


The Dark Knight Rises, Part I:

- The first part includes Bane breaking the Bat as well as the beginning of Bane taking over Gotham.

- While the night Harvey Dent died is the last confirmed sighting of The Batman, it is not the last time Bruce Wayne put on the cape and cowl. He tried to go out at night afterwards, but there was really nothing for Bruce to do and so he decided to stay away as Batman and only follow the happenings of Gotham City from his computer in the Batcave while his leg continued to nag him but he just never did anything to fix it as he was too focused on A.) waiting to see when Gotham will need him next, such as if the "next Joker" will arrive in town and B.) his new hobby with Wayne Enterprises, which is the clean energy project.

- There is a mutual attraction between Bruce and Miranda Tate from the beginning even if Bruce doesn't want to admit it, but they finally agree to a date when they meet at Miranda's masquerade ball and while they both call it a meeting, they hope it acts more of a date(Bruce sees himself with someone like Miranda, but he can't help his attraction to Selina Kyle either).

- After Selina steals Bruce's car, she leaves it by the construction site that's right above Batman's bunker(and it's only a coincidence) which continues to intrigue Bruce regarding Selina as well as donning the cape and cowl once more.

- Foley is interested in taking Commissioner Gordon's job after hearing about the Mayor dropping him in the Spring and when Batman returns, he becomes a bit too snobby, even mentioning to Blake how he's going to be the next Commissioner once he captures Batman, dead or alive.

- After the fight between Bruce and Alfred, Alfred meets with Lucius to give him that data from the stock exchange incident and also calls Lucius out on trying to get Bruce back in a Batsuit while Alfred has been trying to get him to move on from everything. Lucius stands his ground and before Alfred leaves he asks him to keep an eye on Bruce with Lucius having no idea that Alfred is leaving Gotham.

- There is a press conference held by the Mayor that Gordon and Foley watch from the hospital room where he tries to calm down the reporters and citizens at the conference about Batman's return, promising Harvey Dent's killer will be caught and he will face the justice system that he always "believed to be beneath him." Foley smirks off and mentions how Gordon better watch out for his job since now he(Foley) and the Mayor are finally promising to bring down The Batman, something Gordon never did.

- While Bruce makes his way back to his Manor after being told to leave the Wayne Enterprises board meeting, he meets with Miranda who came to say how she couldn't make it to their date(with him being bankrupt, Miranda couldn't reach him by phone) and Bruce couldn't either(as he plans on taking down Bane) to which they then make love(thus actually giving the idea more sense since they've been attracted to each other from the beginning and were even planning on going on a date).

- After Bane breaks the Bat, he orders some of his men to also go after Selina Kyle, which is why she tries to leave Gotham.

- While Gordon orders all of his men to go down into the sewers to find Bane, Blake mentions how that may not be a smart idea, but Foley actually stands up to defend Gordon's idea(which shows just how douchey Foley is when that was a bad call on Gordon's behalf, but it's hinted that he's not thinking straight now that he knows Batman is gone again).

- Bane makes his presence known at the football game and then letting the Blackgate inmates free during his speech the following day where he reveals the Dent lie, and once he's finished he murders every single reporter in the street using the Tumbler's weapons(the massacre starts once a reporter yells out that Batman will stop him).

- A longer montage of this martial law being started. Bane mentions how the city will endure while the bomb is slid into the back of a truck, ending the first part.


The Dark Knight Rises, Part II:

- The films opens with Bruce sliding out of his bed trying to get up and that old man ties him up and does that whole ordeal, but Bruce is stayed up in that position for three months.

- More chaos in Gotham City while the Blackgate inmates, Bane's mercenaries and more lower class individuals have their way with the city while the US military seemingly do nothing. The upper class tries to rebel but their movement is shot down quickly.

- To parallel the citizens wanting Batman to be caught in Part I, throughout the siege people are heard wondering where Batman is and wanting him to save Gotham.

- Gordon tries to stay hidden to stay away from the Blackgate inmates that want his head on a platter(by Blake's suggestion) and Foley tries to get the police officers that's left to gather and rebel against Bane's tyranny.

- Selina Kyle has a change of heart and there is a fallout between her and Jen who wants to ride the storm out with the two of them together, but Selina wants to do something good now with her life.

- We finally jump back to Bruce where he has his vision of Ra's al Ghul and finally stands up on his two feet, wondering how much time he has until that nuclear bomb is ready to erupt.

- Jumping back to Gotham where the Special Forces meet up with Gordon, who's finally showing his face, with Blake at his side and getting the remnants of the GCPD together and try and stop Bane. The Special Forces guys are killed, Blake runs off with Miranda while Gordon and his men tries to run away from their hideout as Bane's mercenaries attack them, but they are quickly stopped by none other than Selina Kyle in her Catwoman attire, making an escape herself before anyone can notice that someone put a beating to Bane's men.

- Bruce climbs out of the Pit and while he's walking in the desert he runs into a group of Bane's men who have arrived to watch over the Pit and Bruce takes care of them, finally giving us a fight with Bruce outside of the Batsuit since the beginning of Batman Begins. He also looks at how Bane's men arrived: the plane that's used when Bane and his men kidnapped Dr. Pavel. Also, Bruce walks with a slight limp, thus not forgetting about his leg issues without that knee brace, but not focusing too much on it either.

- When Gordon teams up with Miranda, they are soon caught by Bane's men and taken to their hearing in front of Jonathan Crane and as soon as Crane yells out "Death! By Exile." the crowd starts to toss rotten food at Gordon, having not forgotten about the Dent lie and Jen is even there, having fully embraced this martial law state of Gotham.

- Bruce is tossed into City Hall where it's mentioned that Bane wants to keep the Wayne Enterprises members alive to witness "their creation", so we see Fredericks as well, but he's at a state where he could die any second as the captives are starving and having a much rougher time than even the GCPD officers in the tunnels.

- The war for Gotham City is much longer where Bane's army seems to have the upper hand at times.

- While getting all the kids back into the bus that have spread the word of a way to leave Gotham, Blake runs into Crane who is trying to leave as well, not wanting to get involved with the war that's going on and having no idea about the bomb. He tries to gas Blake, but Blake stops Crane by grabbing his arm before he could use the gas he has with him and knocks the former doctor out, then cuffing him to a light post(teasing Blake's first confrontation with a villain).

- Talia makes her reveal and mentions, during her story about her climbing out of the Pit and seeking revenge, that she sought out after Bane and needed to use his men and promised Bane more glory than her father ever achieved.

- And right after Talia's reveal and leaving, Bane kicks a tied up Batman to the ground, saying that he(Bruce) used Talia and should have never been able to sleep with her before he points the shotgun to his face and says "And now you'll have to imagine the fire!"(yes, I changed the sentence up a little to fit accordingly), then Selina blasts Bane away but DOESN'T follow up with a line afterwards. The scene cuts off to the next scene.

- While Talia tells the Tumbler's driver to "Kill them all.", it shows the Tumbler shooting through both the GCPD and the Blackgate inmates, while also running over Foley.

- Once the bomb goes off and Gordon starts to read off of A Tale of Two Cities, we see shots of Crane being picked up and the GCPD walking out of City Hall with Bane's very broken mask.

- While they read off of Bruce Wayne's will, there is mentions of how Bruce died during the siege and how Wayne Enterprises may be shutting down for good unless another company buys them out.

- We see Gordon about to head up to the roof of the MCU building when he's stopped by a Detective Essen who asks if he needs anyone to go with him to his meeting with the Senator in the morning(presumably regarding the Dent lie), but Gordon says no and that he needs to be alone to face the problem he created. He then heads to the rooftop where he notices the rebuilt Bat signal.

- Part II ends just as the actual film ends with Robin John Blake finding his way unto that raising platform.



Giving me the story that I really loved in TDKR as well as giving some more time on necessary plot elements and characters. Thoughts?

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:48 PM   #11
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

I gotta say Anno, those were some very nice ideas, very well thought-out. You know my stance on the two film thing, as I feel it's asking a bit much to have an entire extra movie...but in terms of a thought experiment, you really knocked it out of the park and filled in some gaps very nicely, while preserving all the major beats of the story.

Overall great job. Best post I've seen in this thread

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:51 PM   #12
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It's a subjective issue so it can suit some well and others less so. I just didn't feel that it gave anything positive and I also felt that it got too little time to make Talia interesting. Such a twist should ideally make you go "oh ****" when things get even worse than you though but in my view that never happened. I also felt that the conviction to the cause that Bane had displayed was hollowed out since his primary drive was love rather than the belief that he was doing the right thing.
It's definitely a polarizing situation where people love it, like it, dislike it or hate it. I didn't mind the reveal or Bane feeling like a human finally, imo.

Quote:
Other than that I liked that the idea that the mastermind and the muscle of the operation was the same person. As for the comparison to the Joker I think that Bane is more the brute version of Ra's al Ghul. They share an idea and method while The Joker seems like focused insanity. That's just my opinion though and I'm fine with that everyone won't share it.
Oh, I'm not trying to compare Bane to Joker. Only saying Bane didn't need to feel like a brute version of Joker, who was someone with no feelings whatsoever. Ra's al Ghul was someone that seemed to have feelings, even while pretending to be Ducard.

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:53 PM   #13
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

I just re-watched TDKR again today also. I love a lot of those ideas, Anno. The press conference showing an actual public response to Batman coming back was definitely needed.

I like the part where the GPD walk out of city hall with Bane's mask. That would have definitely helped with Bane having some form of closure to his arc.

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:57 PM   #14
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I gotta say Anno, those were some very nice ideas, very well thought-out. You know my stance on the two film thing, as I feel it's asking a bit much to have an entire extra movie...but in terms of a thought experiment, you really knocked it out of the park and filled in some gaps very nicely, while preserving all the major beats of the story.

Overall great job. Best post I've seen in this thread
Thanks

I've been working on that for a while, as it was last week when I saw TDKR last, and I've been saving it on a draft on my Yahoomail account, lol, just trying to see what I think would fit the best or what have you. I hope others like my idea as well.

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Old 03-29-2013, 10:59 PM   #15
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I just re-watched TDKR again today also. I love a lot of those ideas, Anno. The press conference showing an actual public response to Batman coming back was definitely needed.

I like the part where the GPD walk out of city hall with Bane's mask. That would have definitely helped with Bane having some form of closure to his arc.
Thanks

I know I've mentioned many times how I'd want to see Bane's body being carried out, but after thinking about how a missile that can mess up a Tumbler shot right into Bane's chest...it might be too gory, or Bane's body could have been split off in two pieces, lol. The mask being shown would be enough, imo.

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Old 03-30-2013, 03:17 AM   #16
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A type of medication that one has to inhale is lame...but Venom isn't? Lol.
What's so lame about it? Is Scarecrow's fear gas lame? Why does he need a mask to inhale painkillers? It would make much more sense, because the Venom gave him his strength. It even made sense in Batman and Robin (though not the inflating up like a balloon part).

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Old 03-30-2013, 03:20 AM   #17
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What's so lame about it? Is Scarecrow's fear gas lame? Why does he need a mask to inhale painkillers? It would make much more sense, because the Venom gave him his strength. It even made sense in Batman and Robin (though not the inflating up like a balloon part).
Why does he need a mask to inhale painkillers? Because he needs the painkillers at all times. That's like asking why you need oxygen.

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Old 03-30-2013, 03:27 AM   #18
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Why does he need a mask to inhale painkillers? Because he needs the painkillers at all times. That's like asking why you need oxygen.
lol Not the same thing.

I suppose the pain would kick in after fighting Batman unless he had painkillers.

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Old 03-30-2013, 03:36 AM   #19
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lol Not the same thing.

I suppose the pain would kick in after fighting Batman unless he had painkillers.
Of course they're not the same thing but they are both necessary, oxygen for everyone and the painkillers to keep the pain at bay for Bane.

From what we see in the film, it's at all times. The moment that the pipe is severed, he's obviously in pain.

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Old 03-30-2013, 04:30 AM   #20
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Of course they're not the same thing but they are both necessary, oxygen for everyone and the painkillers to keep the pain at bay for Bane.

From what we see in the film, it's at all times. The moment that the pipe is severed, he's obviously in pain.
That makes even less sense. I thought Nolan's films were supposed to be realistic?


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Old 03-30-2013, 04:35 AM   #21
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That makes even less sense. I thought Nolan's films were supposed to be realistic?

...a man in constant agony that is so excruciating that he needs a mask feeding him painkillers at all times to hold it at bay is unbelievable to you? Also, they're not realistic, they're just more grounded than say...The Avengers or Thor. Not everything can happen in the real world. There aren't ninja cults in the mountains or men who wander around with half their face burnt off and talk just fine either. It's a heightened reality.

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:59 AM   #22
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Anno the problem with that sort of vision , is you arent actually creating two movies. You're just expanding plot points , stretching one story to fit two movies. By the end of the first movie , you dont have a story. You have events . That would be like ending Godfather part I when Sollozzo is whacked or something. Or ending Barry Lyndon when he marries the countess. Being bigger doesn't mean two motion pictures.

So , if there is two movies , the blueprint needs to be completely different than Rises , mostly because this is constructed to be one movie about Bruce , his journey , and how everything in the story reflect of his conditions. If you cut the 2nd part of the movie , you don't have a thing. Just a bunch of stuff glued that make no sense by the end of the movie. You have a tv episode. .

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Old 03-30-2013, 09:41 AM   #23
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Anno the problem with that sort of vision , is you arent actually creating two movies. You're just expanding plot points , stretching one story to fit two movies. By the end of the first movie , you dont have a story. You have events . That would be like ending Godfather part I when Sollozzo is whacked or something. Or ending Barry Lyndon when he marries the countess. Being bigger doesn't mean two motion pictures.

So , if there is two movies , the blueprint needs to be completely different than Rises , mostly because this is constructed to be one movie about Bruce , his journey , and how everything in the story reflect of his conditions. If you cut the 2nd part of the movie , you don't have a thing. Just a bunch of stuff glued that make no sense by the end of the movie. You have a tv episode. .
I agree with this, that's why I'm ultimately against the two movie idea. I haven't heard of a great way to split the movie into two pieces that offers a complete emotional experience in both halves.

That said, I think Anno's ideas are a nice expansion of the plot and seem to flow naturally from it.

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Old 03-30-2013, 10:01 AM   #24
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Anno the problem with that sort of vision , is you arent actually creating two movies. You're just expanding plot points , stretching one story to fit two movies. By the end of the first movie , you dont have a story. You have events . That would be like ending Godfather part I when Sollozzo is whacked or something. Or ending Barry Lyndon when he marries the countess. Being bigger doesn't mean two motion pictures.

So , if there is two movies , the blueprint needs to be completely different than Rises , mostly because this is constructed to be one movie about Bruce , his journey , and how everything in the story reflect of his conditions. If you cut the 2nd part of the movie , you don't have a thing. Just a bunch of stuff glued that make no sense by the end of the movie. You have a tv episode. .
I was thinking the same thing

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Old 03-30-2013, 01:46 PM   #25
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

After re-reading "Bane Of The Demon" I have to say that comic's Bane is a much more interesting character and a much more intimidating villain than his movie's counterpart. I do understand that they have to change some of the characters' aspects when they transfer them from one media to another. But in this case more "comic faithfulness" would have been much better.

And Nolan did a huge mistake when he made "his" Bane having to wear his mask all the time. It limited Hardy's acting abilities a lot. Comic's Bane is a badass even without his mask. And Hardy would have been, too. Maybe even more than with the mask on.

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