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Old 03-30-2013, 01:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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After re-reading "Bane Of The Demon" I have to say that comic's Bane is a much more interesting character and a much more intimidating villain than his movie's counterpart. I do understand that they have to change some of the characters' aspects when they transfer them from one media to another. But in this case more "comic faithfulness" would have been much better.

And Nolan did a huge mistake when he made "his" Bane having to wear his mask all the time. It limited Hardy's acting abilities a lot. Comic's Bane is a badass even without his mask. And Hardy would have been, too. Maybe even more than with the mask on.
The thing with Nolan is he has to have a valid reason for his villains to have their theatrical comic book elements, just like his Batman did with his theatrical traits.

Crane wore the Scarecrow mask to freak out people under the effects of his fear gas. Joker wore the clown make up like a war paint to intimidate people and to match with his cut smile ("Now I see the funny side. Now I'm always smiling"). Dent used the two headed coin because he believed chance was the only morality. Of course Bane wore the mask because he had to due to a physical pain.

Catwoman is the only one who stands out in this regard. Apart from her razor heels we're not given any validation for the domino mask, or the goggles etc. Ra's and Talia didn't really look very theatrical. It's why Ra's could walk into Bruce Wayne's birthday party and not draw attention. The other villains in their theatrical guises could never do that lol.

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Old 03-30-2013, 01:58 PM   #27
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

I'd love to see a redo of TDK's penthouse scene with Joker where he just walks into the party now. Or Bane just walking into the Dent Day Ceremony. And nobody notices.

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:01 PM   #28
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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The thing with Nolan is he has to have a valid reason for his villains to have their theatrical comic book elements, just like his Batman did with his theatrical traits.

Crane wore the Scarecrow mask to freak out people under the effects of his fear gas. Joker wore the clown make up like a war paint to intimidate people and to match with his cut smile ("Now I see the funny side. Now I'm always smiling"). Dent used the two headed coin because he believed chance was the only morality. Of course Bane wore the mask because he had to due to a physical pain.

Catwoman is the only one who stands out in this regard. Apart from her razor heels we're not given any validation for the domino mask, or the goggles etc.
I know where you're coming from. And I agree.
But from a theatrical point of view it would have been better if Bane didn't have to wear his mask all the time. You see, in the comics he is addicted to Venom but there are enough pages where you see him without his mask. In the movie he needs his painkillers. But maybe it could have been enough if he has to wear his mask half of the day. And, of course, to look more intimidating when he goes outside to do his "job" as a villain.


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Old 03-30-2013, 02:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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I know where you coming from. And I agree.
But from a theatrical point of view it would have been better if Bane didn't have to wear his mask all the time. You see, in the comics he is addicted to Venom but there are enough pages where you see him without his mask. In the movie he needs his painkillers. But maybe it could have been enough if he has to wear his mask half of the day. And, of course, to look more intimidating when he goes outside to do his "job" as a villain.
I agree with you. Masked villains are often robbed of the expressive nature of the actor's face. Sam Raimi shied away from it after Dafoe's Green Goblin. It's why Franco's "Goblin" was only masked for about 20 seconds in the whole movie.

Hardy had some advantage that he could convey some emotion with his eyes. Take the look he throws Dr. Pavel on the plane when Pavel says "Nothing. I said nothing", or when Batman rubs it in his face about him being kicked out "by a gang of psychopaths" etc.

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:05 PM   #30
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

I just wasn't a fan of how they portrayed Bane in the movie. And while I'm not a fan of the mask, it still isn't the main reason why I didn't enjoy the character that much.

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:13 PM   #31
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What's so lame about it? Is Scarecrow's fear gas lame? Why does he need a mask to inhale painkillers? It would make much more sense, because the Venom gave him his strength. It even made sense in Batman and Robin (though not the inflating up like a balloon part).
He needs the mask because he needs to inhale that medication 24/7. It's better to ask why he needs a mask when using Venom

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Anno the problem with that sort of vision , is you arent actually creating two movies. You're just expanding plot points , stretching one story to fit two movies. By the end of the first movie , you dont have a story. You have events . That would be like ending Godfather part I when Sollozzo is whacked or something. Or ending Barry Lyndon when he marries the countess. Being bigger doesn't mean two motion pictures.

So , if there is two movies , the blueprint needs to be completely different than Rises , mostly because this is constructed to be one movie about Bruce , his journey , and how everything in the story reflect of his conditions. If you cut the 2nd part of the movie , you don't have a thing. Just a bunch of stuff glued that make no sense by the end of the movie. You have a tv episode. .
You need to expand one story to have two parts. Harry Potter was essentially one huge story to be told, and The Dark Knight Rises needed to be just that, one huge story. Breaking of the Bat and Bane taking hold of Gotham City in one part, then the second part is the deconstruction of Gotham and the rehabilitation of Bruce. Can't see why one would want two separate stories of a two parter finale, lol.

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:13 PM   #32
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

I do like the design of Bane's masks in TDKR. But I do not like these two things about it:

First - Bane has to wear it all the time (as I stated above).

Second - It's purpose. I mean, what makes more sense? Tubes in the back of Bane's head that feed his brain with Venom? Or a mask with painkillers that magically come from nowhere?

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:17 PM   #33
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I do like the design of Bane's masks in TDKR. But I do not like these two things about it:

First - Bane has to wear it all the time (as I stated above).

Second - It's purpose. I mean, what makes more sense? Tubes in the back of Bane's head that feed his brain with Venom? Or a mask with painkillers that magically come from nowhere?
It should have been explained, but the ones who follow closely should know this answer.


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Old 03-30-2013, 02:20 PM   #34
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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He needs the mask because he needs to inhale that medication 24/7. It's better to ask why he needs a mask when using Venom
Some villains just wear masks to look more intimidating. Look at Ledger's Joker. Did he have to wear facepaint to be a crazy criminal mastermind? No - but he did. Just because to frighten people as it was said in TDK.

Even in the Nolanverse not every outfit is just about being practical. Why does a cat burglar like Selina wear a domino mask and those unpractical heels? And Crane's fear gas also worked without his mask as the third act in Begins showed. The Nolanverse is not very consistent in this point.

And - it' still a comic book movie. Heroes and villains look this way in comic books. Superman could also fly without a blue suit, red trunks and a cape. And The Riddler on the other hand could ask riddles without a suit full of question marks. But they wear those things 'cause they are their "some kind of corporate design".


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Old 03-30-2013, 02:24 PM   #35
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

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It should have been explained, but the ones who follow closely should know this answer.

Thanks for pointing that out. But still - I would have prefered that his masks feeds him with Venom and he doesn't have to wear it 24/7. But that's, of course, a matter of taste.


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Old 03-30-2013, 02:39 PM   #36
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Some villains just wear masks to look more intimidating. Look at Ledger's Joker. Did he have to wear facepaint to be a crazy criminal mastermind? No - but he did. Just because to frighten people as it was said in TDK.

Even in the Nolanverse not every outfit is just about being practical. Why does a cat burglar like Selina wear a domino mask and those unpractical heels? And Crane's fear gas also worked without his mask as the third act in Begins showed. The Nolanverse is not very consistent in this point.

And - it' still a comic book movie. Heroes and villains look this way in comic books. Superman could also fly without a blue suit, red trunks and a cape. And The Riddler on the other hand could ask riddles without a suit full of question marks. But they wear those things 'cause they are their "some kind of corporate design".
Yes, but the luchador mask should at least be questioned if someone wants to ask why someone would wear a mask to inhale medication whereas the luchador mask has no relevance to Bane taking the Venom through those tubes. That was my point.

And with Crane...it was always shown that his gas could work outside of his mask from his wrist(as seen in the first meeting between Batman and Scarecrow), but the mask was just to mess with the people who does inhale that fear gas.

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Thanks for pointing that out. But still - I would have prefered that his masks feeds him with Venom and he doesn't have to wear it 24/7. But that's, of course, a matter of taste.
Of course, I could see why it's a matter of taste. I would assume the ones who wanted the Venom didn't like the idea of Bane even being badly beaten and had to use that medication to keep the pain at bay. I personally find that idea to be interesting that he's using medication to keep his pain at a minimum while Bruce fights through the pain whenever he goes into battle whereas being stabbed or shot at.

I also understand the idea of why the medicine isn't solely revealed because it was something that had to be halted and finally mentioned while Bruce was in the Pit, so unless there's an area after that mark to show Bane refilling or changing his medicine for whatever purposes, then there isn't a reason to even bother to show Bane's medicine at all and just showing what happens when a tube is broken off his mask.

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:42 PM   #37
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Hardy had some advantage that he could convey some emotion with his eyes. Take the look he throws Dr. Pavel on the plane when Pavel says "Nothing. I said nothing", or when Batman rubs it in his face about him being kicked out "by a gang of psychopaths" etc.
I agree. I guess after they decided to give Bane a 24/7 mask Nolan and his design crew knew: "Okay, if we do that he can't wear a full face mask like in the comics. At least we have to show his eyes."

On the other hand they are some villains in movie history that worked great without the audience seeing their face all the time: Darth Vader, Jason Voorhees and Michael Myers, for example. But Bane is not that kind of a villain. He has more depth - in the comics and also in TDKR. And even Darth Vader lost his mask for a couple of seconds when he became sympathetic and the audience started to care about his faith.

So in my eyes Nolan did a wrong decision by giving Bane a 24/7 mask but he did a right decision by making this mask just half-face.

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

Darth Vader has to have his mask off to give him some sympathy points as much as Bane had to show his eyes and finally the moment where we see him shedding a tear. Much, much different from the straight up killers that are Jason and Michael, lol.

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:48 PM   #39
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

Yeah, Hardy's eyes really are what sell the performance, apart from his body language. So much danger there, he's like a rottweiler with a muzzle.



lol

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:51 PM   #40
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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It's definitely a polarizing situation where people love it, like it, dislike it or hate it. I didn't mind the reveal or Bane feeling like a human finally, imo.
Yes, it's perfectly fine to think either way. Both opinions come with clear reasoning.

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Oh, I'm not trying to compare Bane to Joker. Only saying Bane didn't need to feel like a brute version of Joker, who was someone with no feelings whatsoever. Ra's al Ghul was someone that seemed to have feelings, even while pretending to be Ducard.
I think we differ in our interpretations of The Joker as well. I found him to be someone who really enjoyed what he was doing. I found him to be doing what he wanted while the other two villains did what they thought was needed (the Bane motivational debate aside).

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:52 PM   #41
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And with Crane...it was always shown that his gas could work outside of his mask from his wrist(as seen in the first meeting between Batman and Scarecrow), but the mask was just to mess with the people who does inhale that fear gas.
Sorry but you misunderstood me. What I meant was that the people of the Narrows freaked out without even seeing Scarecrow's mask - just because of the fear gas.

They main reason Nolan let Crane wear his mask in BB (the same goes for Joker's white facepaint, green hair and purple suit or Selina's catsuit and domino mask): He had to resemble his comic counterpart. Others than that a simple gas mask would have done the job.


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Old 03-30-2013, 02:53 PM   #42
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I think we differ in our interpretations of The Joker as well. I found him to be someone who really enjoyed what he was doing. I found him to be doing what he wanted while the other two villains did what they thought was needed (the Bane motivational debate aside).
Well, the difference is, I Ra's and Bane have the ability to care about other people. They both seem to think there's at least something worth saving in the world or aspiring to.

Joker just wants to see it all burn and he doesn't care about another single soul (except maybe Batman in a twisted way).

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:55 PM   #43
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You could still see what Vader was thinking though, without the mask being taken off. In Empire at the carbon freezing chamber for instance. The look he gives Leia, pushing down Boba Fett's rifle, etc. He looks sinister, he's not emoting but you know what's going on behind those lenses.

Same thing in Return of the Jedi. Did we need any dialogue or eyes to see Vader look at the Emperor, then back at Luke, contemplating what he should do? Nope. And that's the beauty of it. A fully helmeted/masked character done right.


Another great one is V from V from Vendetta. Again, fully masked, you never had to see anything on his face to know what he's feeling or what's going on.


Green Goblin was sort of close, but they botched it by giving him the over expressive "Power Ranger" movements. Like where every gesture is sort of heightened and overdone. Spider-Man was kind of like that too in the first one, but he got much better in Spider-Man 2 and 3.



It could have worked with Bane, in the right hands. I don't mind seeing Bane's eyes, I thought that was alright but I didn't like that you could see his balding Mr. Clean head. They should have had some sort of cap or something that meshed well with the actual mask to hide the fact that he was a bald dude. Then maybe have the eye openings sort of be shaped like the comic eyes but smaller, that Spawn/Bane/Venom/Deadpool shape. Then Hardy or whoever played Bane could have still emoted with their eyes and brows.


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Old 03-30-2013, 02:59 PM   #44
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Darth Vader has to have his mask off to give him some sympathy points as much as Bane had to show his eyes and finally the moment where we see him shedding a tear. Much, much different from the straight up killers that are Jason and Michael, lol.
As I said: "Bane is not that kind of a villain".

And, sorry, I am not so much into Star Wars. I have seen Episode IV to VI a couple of times and Episode I once - but that's it. But are you sure that Darth Vader really got sympathy points before Episode I to III hit the theatres (and before the climax of "Return Of The Jedi", of course)? Anyway, maybe the Darth Vader example was not the best. My fault.


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Old 03-30-2013, 03:02 PM   #45
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. Spider-Man was kind of like that too in the first one, but he got much better in Spider-Man 2 and 3.
Raimi showed Peter's face very often when he was wearing his Spider-Man costume. Which was not needed IMHO. Peter Parker already was a "hero with a face".

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:31 PM   #46
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@Anno: I like it and I share your sentiments about giving Nolan more time or two films. I would've left the reporters alive until after Bane said "Gotham will survive." I'll add Bruce waiting for the next Joker and thus neglecting his leg to my headcanon for the missing years.

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:50 PM   #47
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I know the script of Dark Knight states that he's limping, but in the actual film I don't remember seeing his knee bothering him. Didn't he fall on his back too? Looks like his head and neck are all messed up. He seems to run away just fine (same run and cape flow that he does when he's running towards avenue X at Cicero), seems like shortness of breath if anything else.

I always thought the reason he was so out of breath, struggling, and acting sluggish was because of that shot in the gut and fall (not to mention the beating he took). He's always holding his lower abdomen in the end, not limping on. Unless the cartilage just deteriorated over the time span of the 8 years.


If he had that knee injury since that night, surely Fox would have caught wind of it (Alfred and Fox probably talk like little old ladies) and have the knee brace for Bruce to use in those 8 years? It seemed no different or more technologically advanced than the pneumatic mangler he uses in Dark Knight to smash the gun barrel and rip through the Scarecrow's van.




Also, in some of the concept art, it shows the brace over the knee while he's wearing the suit. Were they originally going depict it like that? That would have been awful.


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Old 03-30-2013, 05:54 PM   #48
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(Alfred and Fox probably talk like little old ladies)
My Pesci. This needs to be a movie. Just Morgan Freeman and Michael Caine gossiping for 2 hours and 45 minutes in IMAX.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:12 PM   #49
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And, "boy, that Bruce needs to find himself a nice lady and settle down!"

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:17 PM   #50
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I know the script of Dark Knight states that he's limping, but in the actual film I don't remember seeing his knee bothering him. Didn't he fall on his back too? He seems to run away just fine (same run and cape flow that he does when he's running towards avenue X at Cicero), seems like shortness of breath if anything else.

I always thought the reason he was so out of breath, struggling, and acting sluggish was because of that shot in the gut and fall (not to mention the beating he took). He's always holding his lower abdomen in the end, not limping on. Unless the cartilage just deteriorated over the time span of the 8 years.


If he had that knee injury since that night, surely Fox would have caught wind of it (Alfred and Fox probably talk like little old ladies) and have the knee brace for Bruce to use in those 8 years? It seemed no different or more technologically advanced than the pneumatic mangler he uses in Dark Knight to smash the gun barrel and rip through the Scarecrow's van.




Also, in some of the concept art, it shows the brace over the knee while he's wearing the suit. Were they originally going depict it like that? That would have been awful.
The severity of the knee injury is kind of sketchy. I mean, if it were that bad Bruce wouldn't have been able to repel down several stories to get to Gordon's room when he was at the hospital. This was all before he got the brace too.

Ultimately, I view the whole knee injury as more of a metaphor for Bruce's mental state. It was more mind over matter. I even think Bruce kind of over sells his injury at times, like when he's getting out of his car at the masquerade ball. Then when he's inside talking to Talia and even Selina he's got his game face on.

But yeah, it seems like they were throwing around the idea of Bruce having the brace on the outside of the suit. Thank God they didn't go through with it.

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