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View Poll Results: Which villain do you prefer, which one is better?
The Joker 74 78.72%
Bane 20 21.28%
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:13 AM   #226
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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I don't get that reasoning at all. You're setting yourself up (and Nicholson Joker unfortunately) for that one.

Previous interpretations of characters, from films (good or bad) or comics have nothing to do with this. Hence, The Joker (THE DARK KNIGHT) vs. Bane (TDKR).
They're hard to compare because they are both very different.

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Old 03-30-2013, 02:19 PM   #227
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^ Too true...but someone was just trying to show that one villain is "superior" to the other, lol.

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:03 PM   #228
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In the Nolanverse Bane was lame and Joker was not half as interesting as in his best comic book stories. Ledger saved the day. So I voted for Joker. But the best Nolan villain is still Ra's IMHO though he is pretty different from his comic counterpart as well. But he was well written. Bane and Joker were not.

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:10 PM   #229
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

Joker was written just like in the comics, more specifically just like in The Killing Joke and Batman #1 though those aren't the only stories they based the Joker on.

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:14 PM   #230
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Joker was written just like in the comics, more specifically just like in The Killing Joke and Batman #1 though those aren't the only stories they based the Joker on.
http://www.jokerfans.blogspot.ie/


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Old 03-30-2013, 05:21 PM   #231
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Just out of curiosity, did you write that yourself?

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:26 PM   #232
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Maybe he has was based on these stories (Killing Joke and Batman #1). But TDK's Joker was not that interesting at all. For me he was just a one-dimensional terrorist who happened to wear white make-up and a purple suit. Nothing special. #1's Joker wasn't very interesting, too. But it was the character's first story. If you base a Joker just on him you deny decades of Joker's colorful history.

I don't blame Heath Ledger for this. I loved him as an actor before TDK and he did the best he could with the source material. He did more than the best. He saved the whole movie.

I am just not a fan of TDK's Joker. He had his moments (the "TV show" with the fake Batman, the interrogation). But all in all TDK's Joker was a disappointment for me. Ledger - great, as always. The way Joker was written - could have been much better.

I dig the work of jokerfans.blogspot though.

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:26 PM   #233
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Just out of curiosity, did you write that yourself?
I did. It was a labor of love. I love Heath's Joker. I also wanted to dispel any notions that just because he wasn't a bleach skinned Joker he didn't embody so many of the comic book Joker traits.

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:29 PM   #234
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Maybe he has was based on these stories. But TDK's Joker was not that interesting at all. For me he was a one-dimensional terrorist who happened to wear white make-up and a purple suit. Nothing special. #1's Joker wasn't very interesting, too. But it was the character's first story. If you base a Joker just on him you deny decades of Joker's colorful history.

I don't blame Heath Ledger for this. I loved him as an actor before TDK and he did the best he could with the source material. He did more than the best. He saved the whole movie.

I am just not a fan of TDK's Joker. He had his moments (the "TV show" with the fake Batman, the interrogation). But all in all TDK's Joker was a disappointment for me. Ledger - great, as always. The way Joker was written - could have been much better.
There is only a fraction of #1's Joker in Heath's portrayal. It isn't based just on him.

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I did. It was a labor of love. I love Heath's Joker. I also wanted to dispel any notions that just because he wasn't a bleach skinned Joker he didn't embody so many of the comic book Joker traits.
Good job on it

I never got the "he isn't bleach skinned so he is not the Joker" argument. Since when does bleached skin make up everything the Joker is? The thing that makes the Joker so interesting is his entire character. Sure that looks are also very important but white facepaint works just as well as bleached skin when you consider the fact that the Joker has an unknown origin story.

If anything, white facepaint may in fact give stronger ties between the Joker's looks and character. It would visually show that he chose to wear facepaint because he has a taste for the theatrics much like Batman and chooses to embrace his insanity, unlike Batman (I'm not saying he should have facepaint in the comics as opposed to bleached skin; just that it worked great in Nolan's franchise IMO).


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Old 03-30-2013, 05:30 PM   #235
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Maybe he has was based on these stories. But TDK's Joker was not that interesting at all. For me he was a one-dimensional terrorist who happened to wear white make-up and a purple suit. Nothing special.
Yet you seem to regard Ra's Al Ghul and his cliche plan to destroy the city with a doomsday machine as a more interesting character.

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#1's Joker wasn't very interesting, too. But it was the character's first story. If you base a Joker just on him you deny decades of Joker's colorful history.
As you can see from my link that certainly wasn't the case. The elements from Batman #1 were just a drop in the ocean. Fair enough if you didn't like him, but to say there wasn't decades worth of Joker material in there is just a falsity.

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Old 03-30-2013, 05:46 PM   #236
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Yet you seem to regard Ra's Al Ghul and his cliche plan to destroy the city with a doomsday machine as a more interesting character.
Yeah, that doomsday machine was lame. I agree. And it wasn't needed. The fear gas alone could have teared down the city. It just would have lasted months. It was as dumb as that sonar crap from TDK.

I guess the reason is: Ra's was never one of my favourite Batman villains. Joker was. So I had high expectactions regarding Mr J that were not fulfilled. After "Begins" my thoughts were: How does Nolan handle things like -
the Joker venom, the perma-whiteness, all the other gimmicks, the clownish part of the character? And then I realized he did not handle them at all. All he ge gave us was a terrorist in white make-up and a purple suit. To me that's just lame. Especially the Smilex could have worked great and turned out to be very disturbing in the Nolanverse. But he gave us - nearly nothing. Of course there are some hints to the comic resource. And TDK's Joker might be a great villain. But IMHO it was not Joker. Not the Joker I love. The only reason people love TDK's Joker is Ledger's great acting. That's my opinion.

Ra's on the other hand - yes, his plan was cliche at its best. But I liked the portrayal of this character as Bruce's mentor. And I loved Neeson's acting as much as Ledger's. Maybe even more.

To be honest. "Begins" is the only Nolan Batman that I like. Don't blame me for that.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:02 PM   #237
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Yeah, that doomsday machine was lame. I agree. And it wasn't needed. The fear gas alone could have teared down the city. It just would have lasted months.
Well in all honesty I didn't mind the doomsday device idea. I know it's a wash, rinse, repeat gimmick but I think once per franchise is ok. It's why I rolled my eyes when I saw it being brought back again for TDKR.

I brought it up as cliche because you're basically embracing a villain with a cliche plan, whereas Joker's was more unique. How many comic book movie villains have you seen try to drive a city crazy? That's far from being standard terrorist stuff. That's insane Joker brand mania.

Quote:
I guess the reason is: Ra's was never one of my favourite Batman villains. Joker was. So I had high expectactions regarding Mr J that were not fulfilled. After "Begins" my thoughts were: How does Nolan handle things like -
the Joker venom, the perma-whiteness, all the other gimmicks, the clownish part of the character? And then I realized he did not handle them at all. All he ge gave us was a terrorist in white make-up and a purple suit. To me that's just lame.
No clownish parts? Wearing clown masks, the (S)Laughter is the best medicine truck, the magic pencil trick, Nurse Joker, eating hor dourves and drinking champagne at Dent's party, hanging out the Cop car window shaking his head in a crazy way, the Joker cards etc.

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Especially the Smilex could have worked great and turned out to be very disturbing in the Nolanverse.
Been there, done that in Batman '89. We still got grinning corpses, only this time even creepier. He Jokerized their faces and cut smiles onto their faces.

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Of course there are some hints to the comic resource.
More than hints. There's blatant full blown traits and storylines used. It's a fact, not an opinion.

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The only reason people love TDK's Joker is Ledger's great acting. That's my opinion.
Based on what? I see several exceptions to that opinion in this thread alone. Unless you've done some kind of worldwide survey, that's conjecture based on nothing.

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Ra's on the other hand - yes, his plan was cliche at its best. But I liked the portrayal of this character as Bruce's mentor. And I loved Neeson's acting as much as Ledger's. Maybe even more.
So basically you just liked him, even though there was no lazarus pits, no Talia, no eco terrorist angle etc. Basically everything of comic book Ra's stripped off him, and you liked him, but you get a ton of Joker comic material in Ledger's Joker but you disliked it.

Interesting opinion.

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To be honest. "Begins" is the only Nolan Batman that I like. Don't blame me for that.
I wouldn't blame you for having an opinion, even if I don't understand the logic behind some of them lol.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:07 PM   #238
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Good job on it
Thank you

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I never got the "he isn't bleach skinned so he is not the Joker" argument. Since when does bleached skin make up everything the Joker is? The thing that makes the Joker so interesting is his entire character. Sure that looks are also very important but white facepaint works just as well as bleached skin when you consider the fact that the Joker has an unknown origin story.
Exactly. It would be like disliking Batman for not wearing grey spandex lol. As long as he embodies the traits of Batman and is using the Batman image, it's all good.

Joker ticked all the right boxes: Green hair, white face, red lips, perma smile, and a purple suit.

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If anything, white facepaint may in fact give stronger ties between the Joker's looks and character. It would visually show that he chose to wear facepaint because he has a taste for the theatrics much like Batman and chooses to embrace his insanity, unlike Batman (I'm not saying he should have facepaint in the comics as opposed to bleached skin; just that it worked great in Nolan's franchise IMO).
Good way of looking at it. Although his two possible back stories seem to imply he got his cut smile first, then went crazy and began to embrace the insanity and the clown image. "Now I see the funny side. Now I'm always smiling".

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:17 PM   #239
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Yeah, it's not like they went with this,



























That would have been too much.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:19 PM   #240
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That would have been too much.
This guy looks like he's about 18 years old lol.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:20 PM   #241
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Well in all honesty I didn't mind the doomsday device idea. I know it's a wash, rinse, repeat gimmick but I think once per franchise is ok. It's why I rolled my eyes when I saw it being brought back again for TDKR.

I brought it up as cliche because you're basically embracing a villain with a cliche plan, whereas Joker's was more unique. How many comic book movie villains have you seen try to drive a city crazy? That's far from being standard terrorist stuff. That's insane Joker brand mania.



No clownish parts? Wearing clown masks, the (S)Laughter is the best medicine truck, the magic pencil trick, Nurse Joker, eating hor dourves and drinking champagne at Dent's party, hanging out the Cop car window shaking his head in a crazy way etc.



Been there, done that in Batman '89. We still got grinning corpses, only this time even creepier. He Jokerized their faces and cut smiles onto their faces.



More than hints. There's blatant full blown traits and storylines used. It's a fact, not an opinion.



Based on what? I see several exceptions to that opinion in this thread alone. Unless you've done some kind of worldwide survey, that's conjecture based on nothing.



So basically you just liked him, even though there was no lazarus pits, no Talia, no eco terrorist angle etc. Basically everything of comic book Ra's stripped off him, and you liked him, but you get a ton of Joker comic material in Ledger's Joker but you disliked it.

Interesting opinion.



I wouldn't blame you for having an opinion, even if I don't understand the logic behind some of them lol.
Unfortunately, the links don't work. I would have loved to see the examples.

I guess the reason I liked BB but TDK not so much and TDKR not at all was Begin's atmosphere. The rain, the brownish colors, the Narrows that looked liked ripped of from "Blade Runner" - I loved that. TDK was just too clean in my opinion. And TDKR - that's another story. That movie failed on so many levels.

Don't get me wrong. TDK's Joker was not a complete failure. By far not. But I expected so much more. And that's what made me so disappointed.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:20 PM   #242
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This guy looks like he's about 18 years old lol.



It's Elijah Wood as the Joker!

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:25 PM   #243
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Default Re: The Joker (The Dark Knight) vs. Bane (TDKR)

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Unfortunately, the links don't work. I would have loved to see the examples.
Yeah, the stupid website I linked them to suddenly decided they don't allow hot linking! So I just verbalized the examples.

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I guess the reason I liked BB but TDK not so much and TDKR not at all was Begin's atmosphere. The rain, the brownish colors, the Narrows that looked liked ripped of from "Blade Runner" - I loved that. TDK was just too clean in my opinion. And TDKR - that's another story. That movie failed on so many levels.

Don't get me wrong. TDK's Joker was not a complete failure. By far not. But I expected so much more. And that's what made me so disappointed.
That's fair enough. You had expectations and they were not met. That's fine. That's an opinion. No argument on that. It's when someone says there's little Joker comic traits in there that I debate the point. That is just a total falsity.

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It's Elijah Wood as the Joker!
Wow so it is. He looks so young.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:29 PM   #244
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Remember this?











I wasn't convinced and man, I remember all those "6th finger" posts.






This was fun too,


















"Beginning of the film. Jack is a bank robber with his goons robbering banks. After a run in with Batman, Batman physically scars his face with his gauntlets and by a 'zip line' thus creating . . . THE JOKER. First, he's just a robber, then he bleaches his hair, then after his scars from Batman he gets a new wardrobe. As the film progresses, his facial scars get worse and worse (he picks at them) and he leaves rotting make up on his face. By the end of the film, he has the same make up from the beginning, all disgusting and rot."





Good times.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:31 PM   #245
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That's fair enough. You had expectations and they were not met. That's fine. That's an opinion. No argument on that. It's when someone says there's little Joker comic traits in there that I debate the point. That is just a total falsity.
So I apologize for that. As you said: I had expectations that were not met. That's a good way to describe it.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:38 PM   #246
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Oh that was fun times. That was the first glimpse of the green hair and the confirmation that he was going to have green hair.

But this one was the one was even better. This is when we got purple suit confirmation:



There was A LOT of happy fans after we saw that.

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Old 03-30-2013, 06:51 PM   #247
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Yeah, good times.


My favorite "new" pics were those 11 or 14 or so that included the Joker at the party kicking Batman in the gut with his shoe blade, Joker and Rachel at the party, Batman holding his arm up with the Batman imposters and of course some of the shots of the interrogation scene.




It was always fun when we had no context of plot or anything like that. I still remember thinking Dent was witnessing the interrogation scene of Batman beating the crud out of the Joker.







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Old 03-30-2013, 06:56 PM   #248
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Yeah, good times.


My favorite "new" pics were those 11 or 14 or so that included the Joker at the party kicking Batman in the gut with his shoe blade, Joker and Rachel at the party, Batman holding his arm up with the Batman imposters and of course some of the shots of the interrogation scene.




It was always fun when we had no context of plot or anything like that. I still remember thinking Dent was witnessing the interrogation scene of Batman beating the crud out of the Joker.






I miss those times, too. I was so hyped for this movie - I watched it three times in a row in a Dutch cinema. In the Netherlands it was shown one month earlier than in Germany 'cause they don't synchronize movies but show them in the original language with undertitles. And movies always work better in their original language in my opinion. Especially Ledger's Joker - OMG, his German voice really sucks.


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Old 03-30-2013, 07:17 PM   #249
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I guess the reason I liked BB but TDK not so much and TDKR not at all was Begin's atmosphere. The rain, the brownish colors, the Narrows that looked liked ripped of from "Blade Runner" - I loved that. TDK was just too clean in my opinion. And TDKR - that's another story. That movie failed on so many levels.
You forgot the monorail .

I have to agree with you on this. BB's Gotham looked fantastic in comparison to TDK and TDKR's Gotham. I personally wouldn't have changed that although I understand why they made Gotham a bit cleaner in TDK (a visual representation of Batman's hard work) and I still think it has a few really good moments at night where it looks like you're in Gotham (like the batpod chase scene and the scene with Harvey at the end) but overall, BB had the best Gotham and TDK's Gotham wasn't exactly bad IMO, at least not at night.

Gotham during the day in TDK was a different story. I didn't hate it but a lot of the times I felt like I was in Toronto during the day scenes. Toronto essentially looks like a cleaner version of Chicago and since both BB and TDK were shot in Chicago but TDK's Gotham is cleaner than the one in BB, the result ends up being a city that looks more like Toronto during the day. It even has the blue-ish colors Toronto has in many places. I live in Toronto and saw the movie downtown with a few friends and the bank Joker robs in TDK looks very similar to an area close to downtown. It felt really weird for me to that scene the first time I saw the movie lol.

Then you have TDKR's Gotham which looks more like Metropolis than Gotham, both during the day and at night. Found Gotham in TDKR to be very disappointing.


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Old 03-30-2013, 07:19 PM   #250
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I loved Gotham in all three films. Even if TDK/TDKR's Gotham looked much more clean, Nolan at least dropped in hints like the monorail in both films.

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