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Old 04-05-2013, 02:08 AM   #726
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Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

I thought the bridge scene with the orphans added a lot of intensity to the final chase.

"The situation has changed! You're orders are out of date! Now, I'm a cop like you and I'm walking out there. Please do not shoot me!"

Am I crazy? I thought that scene was highly emotional and served to bring Blake's arc to a climax. I don't think the ending would've worked nearly as well without that scene. On top of that I think it just adds this sense of bleakness and desperation to the final chase. I give Zimmer a lot of the credit for making it all cut together smoothly and steadily increase in intensity. To me the whole climax of the movie is perfection (minus Talia's death scene). Tension builds on top of tension continuously for what feels like a good 20 minutes, until we finally reach a somber ending that relieves all the tension yet leaves us feeling unfulfilled...until the final part of the montage where everything just comes together beautifully into a soaring triumphant ending.

Idk, I guess I always felt this movie was paced pretty well, in that I never felt it dragging. The slower parts feel necessarily because I'm still catching my breath from the insanely intense parts that precede them. TDKR and The Hobbit are about the same length, but honestly TDKR feels more like a 2 hour film and The Hobbit feels more like a 4 hour film.


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The other thing I don't like about the Blake interruptions during the climax is that Blake is given one task by Batman and he totally fails at it. So we're seeing proto-Batman here totally suck at his one job...and we have to be shown this during a cool pursuit sequence. It's just all disconnected and disappointing. It's a pretty over-elaborate way to show Blake giving up on being a policeman.
Well, he's not "Batman" yet. That's the whole point, he's still trying to abide by the system and this is the final nail in the coffin of his disillusionment. Up until that scene he was shown to be proud to be a cop/detective. Him "failing" here is no different than when Bruce gets beat up by Falcone's thugs and tossed out into the street in Batman Begins. I'm glad they didn't go out of their way to try and shove it down our throats that Blake was some badass to begin with. He's Robin afterall. He'll have to grow into the mantle, just like Bruce did.

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Old 04-05-2013, 03:26 AM   #727
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I love most of the Blake scenes, but the scene of him saving commissioner Gordon felt like forced suspense that isn't terribly exciting. Blake asks a man for his car, he runs, and Gordon saves himself anyways.

Also, the scene with him rounding up the kids telling them the bomb is going to blow (again, not particularly interesting or suspenseful). After Bruce told him to lead an exodus, the next scene could have just been him on the bridge with everyone. Or something.


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Old 04-05-2013, 10:00 AM   #728
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Jett on Batman On Film.com has said that fanboys are just a piss in the ocean when it comes to the target audience for these films, is this true people?

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Old 04-05-2013, 10:40 AM   #729
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Absolute agree. I like the first half quite a lot. Once Blake finishes his questioning of Selina it drops off. Pacing is an issue. Tightening things up would’ve helped I think.

As said, the pit scenes with Bruce are fine, but they’re withheld too much for my liking as the Gotham siege dominates. Which drags and is dull. I would’ve preferred more consistent time on Bruce, with his scenes closer together. I sort of feel instead of building up and up the Gotham scenario, get on with it.

And yep, Selina is thrown in jail, so the film is without spunk for that portion. Something extra for her would’ve been nice. Perhaps handling scene transitions differently. In prison eating a meal, on her own with the men on the side, on their own. The speakers begin to blurt out Bane’s speech and its on. Or something. And even showing her walking out of jail in the orange jumpsuit looking determined, which there is a publicity still of. I wonder if any footage of that exists?

Also, yes, the orphans/bridge scene gets in the way of what should be a tight, all out final conflict. Would’ve liked to have seen more Batman fighting Bane.
Well said

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The other thing I don't like about the Blake interruptions during the climax is that Blake is given one task by Batman and he totally fails at it. So we're seeing proto-Batman here totally suck at his one job...and we have to be shown this during a cool pursuit sequence. It's just all disconnected and disappointing. It's a pretty over-elaborate way to show Blake giving up on being a policeman.
Exactly. It was an annoying boring distraction from the more intense stuff going on.

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Jett on Batman On Film.com has said that fanboys are just a piss in the ocean when it comes to the target audience for these films, is this true people?
The day you start believing Jett is the day you should start believing pigs fly.

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Old 04-05-2013, 12:06 PM   #730
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The day you start believing Jett is the day you should start believing pigs fly.
But he has a hand signed note from Nolan!

He does have good inside info but in regards to his "opinions" about BOF, he's a bit douchey to me.

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Old 04-05-2013, 01:10 PM   #731
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The other thing I don't like about the Blake interruptions during the climax is that Blake is given one task by Batman and he totally fails at it. So we're seeing proto-Batman here totally suck at his one job...and we have to be shown this during a cool pursuit sequence. It's just all disconnected and disappointing. It's a pretty over-elaborate way to show Blake giving up on being a policeman.
What did he fail at, though? Batman wanted him to lead an exodus out of Gotham and he did through the bridge, but he was stopped. Wasn't his fault. That would be like saying Batman failed at his first tries with Scarecrow, Joker and Bane in each film.

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Jett on Batman On Film.com has said that fanboys are just a piss in the ocean when it comes to the target audience for these films, is this true people?
Well, while Jett sucks at life, lol, he is kinda right on this one. Any director should focus on making a movie that pleases the general audience at a bigger scale than just fanboys and it shows. The general audience love TDKR and probably as much as TDK, but some fanboys think otherwise on how TDKR "fits" with the trilogy as a whole.

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Old 04-05-2013, 03:05 PM   #732
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Yeah I gotta disagree on the Blake/Bridge scene. I've sat through three movies of developing Bruce/Batman/Gordon- we're at the "final battle," Im ungodly hungry to see Batman rip Bane to shreds & see how Gordon will stop the bomb....... and we cut to the orphans.

I mean, I dont know what else Nolan shouldve done with Blake besides maybe having him fight alongside Batman (which even I admit would've been out of place and too convenient), but I feel as if that took away from the final assault's pacing.

But I wouldve cut Blake/Talia from the movie altogether, so Im pretty biased here.

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Old 04-05-2013, 03:12 PM   #733
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But I wouldve cut Blake/Talia from the movie altogether, so Im pretty biased here.
I don't know about biased, but I agree with you all the way. I think the movie would benefit ten fold without both of those characters, especially Blake. His scenes are mainly the ones I find myself hitting the fast forward button on now when I watch TDKR. Selina Kyle should have had his amount of screen time.

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Old 04-05-2013, 04:53 PM   #734
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I don't know about biased, but I agree with you all the way. I think the movie would benefit ten fold without both of those characters, especially Blake. His scenes are mainly the ones I find myself hitting the fast forward button on now when I watch TDKR. Selina Kyle should have had his amount of screen time.
Yea with this being the finale the movie had no room or business with boring uninteresting characters like Blake and Talia (how they were handled). Blake's goody goody obey the law character wasn't interesting enough. We needed shades of a real (conflicted) bad ass unfolding on screen that we could believe would be considered to take up the mantle. Sure his arc was there but it could have been executed in far better ways. I mean this is the finale...come with the thunder. As I said in a post recently I would have Blake figure out Bruce's secret during the 8 year gap and use it as leverage to convince Bruce to train him and in return he becomes his new inside man at GCPD. I wouldn't let the audience know they even knew each other but reveal Blake through his actions (hints of a bad ass) and sealing the deal with flashbacks right before Blake enters the Bat cave to rise on the platform (he knows where the cave is and doesn't need GPS crap)

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Old 04-05-2013, 05:13 PM   #735
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I don't know about biased, but I agree with you all the way. I think the movie would benefit ten fold without both of those characters, especially Blake. His scenes are mainly the ones I find myself hitting the fast forward button on now when I watch TDKR. Selina Kyle should have had his amount of screen time.
I'm sure you'd take these two out because you wouldn't want the LoS to be involved and Bane not working with the LoS as well as Bruce not passing the mantle down to someone else?

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Old 04-05-2013, 06:18 PM   #736
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Yea with this being the finale the movie had no room or business with boring uninteresting characters like Blake and Talia (how they were handled). Blake's goody goody obey the law character wasn't interesting enough. We needed shades of a real (conflicted) bad ass unfolding on screen that we could believe would be considered to take up the mantle. Sure his arc was there but it could have been executed in far better ways. I mean this is the finale...come with the thunder.
Exactly.

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As I said in a post recently I would have Blake figure out Bruce's secret during the 8 year gap and use it as leverage to convince Bruce to train him and in return he becomes his new inside man at GCPD. I wouldn't let the audience know they even knew each other but reveal Blake through his actions (hints of a bad ass) and sealing the deal with flashbacks right before Blake enters the Bat cave to rise on the platform (he knows where the cave is and doesn't need GPS crap)
You mean you'd have that as the 'twist' of the movie instead of the Talia reveal?

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I'm sure you'd take these two out because you wouldn't want the LoS to be involved and Bane not working with the LoS as well as Bruce not passing the mantle down to someone else?
I've no problem with the mantle being passed on or Bruce retiring. This is the movies not the comics. It's a finite universe. It's why I don't understand why nobody complains when a villain is killed off. These villains have criminal careers that span years in the comics, but in the movies they're cut short to days/weeks/months all the time.

You're right about the LOS. I'd rather have had Bane be his own self made man like in the comics. Bane is the one who over came adversity and performed extraordinary feats as a person. Surviving Pena Duro since he was a child, educating and training himself and finally escaping Pena Duro. Studying Batman and figuring out his secret identity himself.

In TDKR Bane never escapes the pit. He was handed the LOS and all it's knowledge like Batman's identity. He's not as impressive as comic book Bane in that regard. Also bringing back the LOS just brought back another destroy the city with a doomsday device plot. Big yawn.

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Old 04-05-2013, 07:05 PM   #737
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But he has a hand signed note from Nolan!

He does have good inside info but in regards to his "opinions" about BOF, he's a bit douchey to me.
I dont want to turn this into a "trash BOF" thread, cause he really did give a voice to Batfans in the early 2000s, which I definitely respect. HOWEVER, he can get a little *ahem* hotheaded sometimes. When the Batman Begins script got leaked and everyone was eating it up, he shut down the website in retaliation.

But I havn't been there since after TDK, I just started going to Batman-News because their layout doesn't make my browser explode.

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Old 04-05-2013, 07:07 PM   #738
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Studying Batman and figuring out his secret identity himself.
I really thought we were going to see Bane be the anti-Batman in terms of that- just deducting Harvey Dent killed everyone. Instead it was, "Whats this? A piece of paper that explains every conflict from TDK." That felt like Spider-Man 3 status in terms of hurrying to wrap plots up.



But to be fair, if presented the choice of more Bruce or Bane development, I can see why Nolan just wanted to get to the point.


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Old 04-05-2013, 09:46 PM   #739
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I've no problem with the mantle being passed on or Bruce retiring. This is the movies not the comics. It's a finite universe. It's why I don't understand why nobody complains when a villain is killed off. These villains have criminal careers that span years in the comics, but in the movies they're cut short to days/weeks/months all the time.
Aside from your views on Bane which I won't debate about as we've both been through that many times beforehand, lol, if you don't mind Bruce passing the mantle down, what was the reason of you not wanting Blake to be used?

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Old 04-05-2013, 10:51 PM   #740
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Aside from your views on Bane which I won't debate about as we've both been through that many times beforehand, lol, if you don't mind Bruce passing the mantle down, what was the reason of you not wanting Blake to be used?
He was boring, and all of his scenes dragged the movie down. Furthermore I said I don't mind the mantle being passed on. I never said it was my top choice of ending for the trilogy. If they were doing the passing on of the mantle, I wish they'd done it with a more interesting character and in a more interesting way. I never understood why Bruce was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Blake was worthy. At least when he had Dent in mind as the city's hero he made him prove himself first by seeing if he could wrangle all those convictions of the mob by giving him Lau. And he did.

I didn't give a damn about Blake. I thought he was a Mary Sue type character and stole screen time that more interesting characters like Selina deserved more.

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Old 04-05-2013, 11:12 PM   #741
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He was boring, and all of his scenes dragged the movie down. Furthermore I said I don't mind the mantle being passed on. I never said it was my choice of ending for the trilogy.
I understand Blake needed sufficient screen time, so that when the last shot of him "rising" in the cave comes up, we buy that he will be Batman's successor. But when you have other characters like Selina, Bane, and especially Bruce's outward journey; seeing Blake on screen in the second act is just a chore. I think I would rather Bruce die at the end, and just take Blake out of the film altogether. Have more Selina, Talia and especially more Gordon screen time.

They handled Blake's arc just fine for the most part, to be fair, but he's the only main cast character in the trilogy that I wasn't fully engaged with. I mean, we can all agree that Talia was underdeveloped, but when she was revealed I so wanted to see more of that character.

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Old 04-07-2013, 01:08 PM   #742
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TDKR was as good as a finale fans were going to get considering they didn't want to recast The Joker.

As far as I know, it's the only major super hero movie to complete the character's story. It takes guts as a storyteller. I appreciate that.
So true.

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Old 04-08-2013, 09:41 PM   #743
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What Nolan did was smart. Instead of going a cut and paste route he used the themes of what the characters are in the comics mixed with his own spin on them. He hasn't strayed from the comics because the themes are spot on. His Robin and Bane may not look like what they are in the comics but he got things right with them mixed with his own stamp. He made things feel fresh. The comics are not the holy grail. The themes are to me. They are what matter. I still want Batman to look like Batman but you can change things like his armour, boots, cowl etc Same with any other character.

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Old 04-08-2013, 10:47 PM   #744
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I thought the bridge scene with the orphans added a lot of intensity to the final chase.

"The situation has changed! You're orders are out of date! Now, I'm a cop like you and I'm walking out there. Please do not shoot me!"

Am I crazy? I thought that scene was highly emotional and served to bring Blake's arc to a climax. I don't think the ending would've worked nearly as well without that scene. On top of that I think it just adds this sense of bleakness and desperation to the final chase. I give Zimmer a lot of the credit for making it all cut together smoothly and steadily increase in intensity. To me the whole climax of the movie is perfection (minus Talia's death scene). Tension builds on top of tension continuously for what feels like a good 20 minutes, until we finally reach a somber ending that relieves all the tension yet leaves us feeling unfulfilled...until the final part of the montage where everything just comes together beautifully into a soaring triumphant ending.

Idk, I guess I always felt this movie was paced pretty well, in that I never felt it dragging. The slower parts feel necessarily because I'm still catching my breath from the insanely intense parts that precede them. TDKR and The Hobbit are about the same length, but honestly TDKR feels more like a 2 hour film and The Hobbit feels more like a 4 hour film.




Well, he's not "Batman" yet. That's the whole point, he's still trying to abide by the system and this is the final nail in the coffin of his disillusionment. Up until that scene he was shown to be proud to be a cop/detective. Him "failing" here is no different than when Bruce gets beat up by Falcone's thugs and tossed out into the street in Batman Begins. I'm glad they didn't go out of their way to try and shove it down our throats that Blake was some badass to begin with. He's Robin afterall. He'll have to grow into the mantle, just like Bruce did.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:07 AM   #745
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Do fans think Nolan was right to use Bane as the final villian for this trilogy? He really helped Bruce close his arc. Push through the pain. The pit worked great. Would a different villian of worked as good as Bane to help close Bruce's arc?

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Old 04-11-2013, 09:10 AM   #746
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I think Bane was the perfect villain for this movie. I don't think they used him to his full potential, but in my opinion, easily the best choice for the final film.

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:19 PM   #747
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Bane was definitely the villain that needed to be used, especially if Nolan had wanted Bruce Wayne to move on. A villain that can break you and give you time in a Pit to re-evaluate your life is a perfect combination. I just wonder how Nolan expected Bruce to move on with the original idea of Dent being Two-Face in the third installment, as Two-Face doesn't seem like a threat that would help Bruce in moving on from Gotham. And while a sometimes unpopular vote, the League of Shadows being used again was a great choice as well with going back to Batman Begins(and using Ra's again as well as a nod like Crane once again acting as a pawn to the LoS).

Everything just needed more time I believe. While I'm perfectly content with what the film delivers, I can't help but wonder what still could have been if given more time. A more longer look of Bane's five month siege, more Selina Kyle, more Bane, more Talia.

And even with Talia, I'm fine that she's used, although once Bane dies, it's over with him and people start to assume he was nothing but a henchman, which, I never saw that. Theatricality(Bane) and Deception(Talia) are powerful agents to the League of Shadows. THAT'S how I see it. Talia couldn't complete this plan without Bane and vice versa. It even shows when Talia tries her best to leave the country with Bruce after they slept together but Bruce didn't want to. Bane had to be the second choice to forcefully get Bruce out of the country and in the Pit. I just wish we had something extra like a police officer walking out of City Hall with Bane's broken mask at the very end to just signify that he was a threat and not just an obstacle.

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:21 PM   #748
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Yeah I gotta disagree on the Blake/Bridge scene. I've sat through three movies of developing Bruce/Batman/Gordon- we're at the "final battle," Im ungodly hungry to see Batman rip Bane to shreds & see how Gordon will stop the bomb....... and we cut to the orphans.

I mean, I dont know what else Nolan shouldve done with Blake besides maybe having him fight alongside Batman (which even I admit would've been out of place and too convenient), but I feel as if that took away from the final assault's pacing.

But I wouldve cut Blake/Talia from the movie altogether, so Im pretty biased here.
The problem with Blake is that unlike Bruce Blake didn't need Batman. When you see Bruce in BB he is a broken shell of a man. Angry, bitter, and an almost murder. Batman redeemed Bruce and Bruce was able to find something worth living for in the icon of Batman, and in turn that icon rescued Bruce from death itself. Blake didn't have that. When we first meet him he has everything together, He lost his parents but he wasn't the empty shell that Bruce was. Blake didn't do anything to earn or NEED the role of Batman. He literal exisisted to just so they could hand off the bat suit to him. He's a lame character IMO and an example of awful writing.

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:39 PM   #749
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The problem with Blake is that unlike Bruce Blake didn't need Batman. When you see Bruce in BB he is a broken shell of a man. Angry, bitter, and an almost murder. Batman redeemed Bruce and Bruce was able to find something worth living for in the icon of Batman, and in turn that icon rescued Bruce from death itself. Blake didn't have that. When we first meet him he has everything together, He lost his parents but he wasn't the empty shell that Bruce was. Blake didn't do anything to earn or NEED the role of Batman. He literal exisisted to just so they could hand off the bat suit to him. He's a lame character IMO and an example of awful writing.
Blake is disillusioned, abandoning everything he believed by the end of TDKR. A man "looking for a path". Just like Bruce was at the beginning of BB.

They took very different paths to get there, but that's the whole point. Blake is not Bruce Wayne 2.0. He represents the next step of evolution for the symbol of Batman.

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Old 04-11-2013, 01:49 PM   #750
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I'm so split on the Blake character.

On one hand, I find him compelling, proactive and I'm okay with him taking on the mantle. Not to mention I think it's JGL's best performance yet.

On the other, I hate how he figures out Bruce's identity, I hate that he takes the spotlight away from characters who deserved it (Gordon, Selina and hell, even Bruce) while at the same time, I don't think his and Bruce's relationship is developed enough for Bruce to trust him with the mantle.

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