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#576 | |
L'homme qui rit.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,961
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![]() (Also the BTAS quote reminds me a bit of Alfred's "Some men just want to watch the world burn..." great speech ![]()
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Check out my new film: https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/bipolar/id867778921 AbracadaPod. A French-speaking Podcast about the magic of Cinema: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...071480930?mt=2 https://soundcloud.com/user-997582799 https://www.facebook.com/AbracadaPod/?ref=hl |
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#577 | |||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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Joker has not always been obsessed with Batman, trying to prove a point against him. That seems Riddler-like to me. Always trying to outsmart Batman with his schemes, and prove himself superior. Joker doesn't have a point, he just commits crimes at random, which is why he is such a dangerous foe. Quote:
Apparently the studio wanted the Riddler, and the Riddler was in the original draft, but in the end he decided not to use the Riddler. Why? Because he had already covered that ground in TDK. |
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#578 | |||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,894
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I doubt that. There is no good explanation for that argument. You couldn't offer one and you've heard this commentary you speak of.
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Do you ever see Joker try to match I.Q. levels with Batman? No. Quote:
No offense, but you have to be the most mis-informed member I've encountered on these forums in many years.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#579 | ||||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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![]() Yes, he may have a point, but we're not supposed to know what it is. Hence, his crimes seem random. |
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#580 | |||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,894
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#581 | ||||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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Well the proof is right there. It's just that you may have to go through 4 hours of commentary to find it.
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#582 |
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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Studio execs had strongly suggested that the Riddler be the film's primary villain but filmmakers felt the character too derivative. The filmmakers ultimately decided to use Bane as they felt he was strikingly different than the Joker from the previous movie.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1345836/trivia |
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#583 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 425
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My thoughts are that Nicholson was too old, too fat and too famous for playing the Joker. Joker is some of the characters that should always be bigger than the actor is. And they made some mistakes storywise: I still don't like it that they gave him a certain name and a definite origin story, I don't like even more that he died at the end of B89 and I truely hate it that they made Pre-Joker Napier the murderer of Bruce's parents.
Jack's Joker was pretty good, though. And there are plenty of scenes with him I still enjoy very much. But B89's Joker was far from perfect. As was TDK's Joker - but for other reasons. |
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#584 | |||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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But when Jack had the Joker makeup on - he was Joker, no question. I never saw Jack, only Joker. You must have been watching a different movie. Jack Nicholson puts a lot of research into his roles, he is not the most celebrated actor of all time for nothing, you know. Even Bob Kane himself thought he was the perfect Joker. His performance was seamless. Even dancing to Prince songs, he was 100% Joker. Quote:
What's wrong with Joker having a name? ![]() Why not have Joker die? So he can come back for sequels? He even died in one comic - The Dark Knight Returns (Batman broke his ****ing neck). As for being the murderer of Bruce's parents... I don't get what is the big deal, but that's a discussion which has already been done to death. Quote:
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#585 | |||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,894
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"I really wanted to see Batman meet his match physically, as well as intellectually. Bane is raw strength with a fanatical devotion to duty, and that combination makes him unstoppable." http://www.mtv.co.uk/news/batman/359...k-knight-rises Quote:
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 04-02-2013 at 08:26 AM. |
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#586 | ||||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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http://www.comicvine.com/articles/of...i/1100-142930/ That he was always steps ahead of Batman? From Riddler's first comic appearance: ![]() ![]() Quote:
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1345836/trivia There's also a Nolan quote about it somewhere... wish I could find it. Quote:
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#587 | |||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,894
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You think a lot of things are are untrue. Like I said you are the most mis-informed poster ever to tread these forums.
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"What about Mr. Freeze? This is a criminal that uses a freeze gun on people. How could he have any similarities to Batman? Mr. Freeze devoid of emotions. Again, he suffered tragedy when his wife became ill and he lost everything that mattered. Batman rarely shares his emotions with others. If Batman didn't allow himself to interact with those in the Bat Family, he could easily become as cold as Mr. Freeze. " LOL! So by watching Mr. Freeze we're supposed to know this would be Batman if he had nobody to interact with? Priceless. Quote:
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Joker doesn't do that. Quote:
So I don't know what youre trying to prove there. Quote:
That's what Batman means when he says normal criminals have logical motives. Joker's are not logical. They are illogical, but not incomprehensible.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 04-02-2013 at 01:18 PM. |
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#588 |
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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We're getting bogged down with strawmen.
Nolan didn't use The Riddler because he had already blown his load with a psychological villain and didn't want to do a remake of The Dark Knight. He couldn't think of a way to differentiate Riddler enough from Joker so as to not cover the same ground. So he dropped Riddler and went for Bane. A lot of people say Jim Carrey was a Jack Nicholson Joker knock-off but I disagree. There was the whole obsession with Bruce Wayne and trying to find out Batman's identity. Then trying to break him by forcing him to choose between his two identities (either save his love interest as Bruce or his partner Robin as Batman). Joker in TDK does the same thing with Dent/Rachel. Joker in Batman '89 was all about him and Batman both being freaks (one good and one evil), hence the "I made you, you made me". Nolan couldn't use the same formula, so he essentially combined certain elements for Joker. |
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#589 | |||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,894
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That's because your arguments always rest on them.
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![]() Do you want scans from it? OutRiddled, your constant attempts to speak on Nolan's behalf in every thread are frankly pathetic. Especially when he says himself why he does these things. Quote:
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Nice strawman though. You'd have more credibility calling Green Goblin in Spider-Man 1 a knock off since he was obsessed with Peter/Spidey, found out his identity, and then made Spider-Man choose between MJ and a tram full of innocents kids to save by dropping them both at the same time in front of him. Quote:
Want the link to that again? Quote:
We won't even get into the idiocy of thinking this is the only way Riddler could have been written. See what I mean? You're the king of strawmen arguments.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 04-03-2013 at 01:46 PM. |
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#590 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 425
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Yes, in elseworld stories he pretty often dies. But as Batman's arch nemesis he should have survived his first confrontation with Bats. I'd have prefered an ending like in "A Death In The Family": "Find his body! Find his body!" Oh, Batman didn't break Joker's neck in TDKReturns. The Joker did it by himself. And making Pre-Joker the murderer of Bruce's parents is just - wrong. It kinda cheapens Mr J's and Batman's relationship to a simple matter of revenge. And when I was saying Nicholson was too old and too fat for playing Joker I didn't mean that he was old and fat per se. |
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#591 |
Banned User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 40
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Heath Ledger's 34th birthday today. Anyone else gonna watch The Dark Knight in memory of him?
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#592 | |
L'homme qui rit.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,961
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__________________
Check out my new film: https://itunes.apple.com/us/movie/bipolar/id867778921 AbracadaPod. A French-speaking Podcast about the magic of Cinema: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...071480930?mt=2 https://soundcloud.com/user-997582799 https://www.facebook.com/AbracadaPod/?ref=hl |
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#593 | |||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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Joker threatened his woman, terrorised the city, killed his parents,... of course Batman is going to want revenge. This is the Batman of the early 1940's, who is not averse to killing when he needs to. What else is he going to do? Tie up Joker and leave him there for the police? ![]() Quote:
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#594 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
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Is it unfaithful to the source material? Yea, sure. But it doesn't tarnish the relationship between the two of them in any way. Remember, Burton was presented with the unbearable task of telling the story of Batman over the course of just a single film. He had to condense all of that mythology and all that history into one movie. By making Joker the murderer of Bruce's parents, it suggests that these two were always destined to cross paths. That one simply could not have existed without the other's help. "I made you... you made me first". |
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#595 | |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,894
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Not to mention it wouldn't have changed a thing if they didn't make the Joker the killer because up until the last half an hour it's never an issue. It wasn't a prominent story throughout the movie. It was thrown in for the final act. To say it doesn't tarnish their relationship is a complete falsity. When has Batman ever blamed his existence as Batman on the Joker? It completely alters their relationship.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 04-06-2013 at 01:56 PM. |
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#596 |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,470
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I think there's such a thing as taking a parallel or a sense of poetic irony one step too far.
For a lot of fans, having The Joker be the killer of the Waynes was that step too far. I don't particularly mind it for that movie, but I don't think it's the best interpretation of the mythos. There's a reason that never caught on in any other version of the story. It's unnecessary. |
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#597 | ||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,894
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![]() Even Sam Hamm, the script writer of the movie was against it: Quote:
__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#598 | ||
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
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Batman's existence is not reliant on The Joker, but the Batman mythos certainly is. By having Joker be the killer, it suggests that this is a character who is tied to Batman. Quote:
Joker's was not the face that haunted Bruce. It was Jack's. He was the one that drove Bruce to become Batman. However as fate would have it, it would be also Batman that drove Jack to become the Joker. Once again, it suggests there is something cosmic binding these two together. Whereas in The Dark Knight, Joker is just some lunatic who gave Batman **** for awhile. You can feel any way you want about it. Burton's film isn't the definitive interpretation of Batman any more so than Scorsese's film was the definitive interpretation of Jesus. It's just one movie. It's just one man's vision. Personally I think there was a beauty to it. And if I'm being perfectly honest, I'll take Burton's original film over any of Nolan's. But that's another debate for another day. |
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#599 | ||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,894
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Lets not split hairs here. Quote:
__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#600 |
Banned User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,005
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Sam Hamm didn't like it because back in the early 90s he was getting all the backlash from the decision because his name was on the script. Lets remember, the script he made for Batman II had the big reveal that Thomas and Martha Wayne was a mob hit and Napier just carried the order out. So in reality, I doubt Hamm even cared. He just didn't want to take the slack from a decision he didn't make and rightfully so.
Fans didn't like it because it wasn't accurate and went in a different direction from established comic canon. Fans weren't as forgiving about "interpretations", artistic licensing, or anything like they are now. Bob Kane loved it, said he wish he thought of it but he also thought the Schumacher Batman's were the best and ****ed over Bill Finger who was equally responsible for Batman if not more so and didn't even live to see the great impact of '89 Batman or what Batman is today. Kane was in it for the fame and fortune. It doesn't bother me. I enjoyed the little surprise back in 1989 when it went that route. Do I think it's definitive or canon, nope. But it worked for me for what Batman was on film in 1989 as one of thousands and thousands of different interpretations of Batman. I particularly liked Joker's reaction to the news. It wasn't cliched or a shocked or knowing response from his part. It seemed like a natural response from someone backing away from a dude dressed as a menacing Bat. "Huh, what are ya talking about", "I was just a kid bro, I say you made me, you gotta say I made you, how childish can you get" Wouldn't punch a guy with glasses would ya? I love the fed up face Batman makes an his eyes before he punches his grinning face over the ledge. Last edited by milost; 04-06-2013 at 09:38 PM. |
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