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#601 |
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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I don't see how it's any worse than Joker creating Two-Face, Ra's Al Ghul training Batman, Catwoman killing Bane, Gordon driving the Batmobile... etc.
Oh wait, Nolan was responsible for those. Do not question the almighty Nolan. ![]() ![]() |
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#602 |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,470
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When you mess around with the murder of the Waynes, you're messing with the foundation of the whole mythology. It's one of the most sacred moments of Batman lore, whole different ballgame. If Burton didn't realize that he was doing something potentially controversial than that was a bit naive on his part. And none of those examples you just listed come off as extremely contrived coincidences. It's not just the idea itself, but the shoehorned in feel of the execution and ultimate hollowness of the reveal.
Personally, I honestly LOVE the flashback of the Waynes' murder in Batman 89. I find that scene to be quite haunting and I probably prefer it to the Waynes' murder in Batman Begins. But when I take a step back, I can acknowledge that there are some legitimate gripes to be had with it. And I ultimately very much prefer the classic scenario where Batman never gets the chance to avenge the man who gunned down his parents. That just rings true to me. OutRiddled, just cause you defend the Burton films constantly does that make you a Burtonite? Do you want to be labeled a blind Burton worshiper? No? Then don't play the "Nolanite" card. It works both ways. |
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#603 |
Not a hero
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Belize
Posts: 4,014
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I love Nicholson's Joker. It works quite well in Burton's film.
Ledger's is superior overall in most regards, but I think each version ultimately suits the accompanying film.
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Superman with Batman - Whatever It Is... - Countdown until midnight release on March 25, 2016 - updated! A hero can be anyone. Even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a young boy's shoulders to let him know the world hadn't ended. |
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#604 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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Unlike the Nolanites here who love everything he does. Like he has the Midas touch or something. ![]() In the comics, I'd prefer it that Batman never found out who killed his parents. So it's like this endless quest for justice to a crime that goes unpunished. But a movie is more self-contained. You can't fit 50+ years of mythology into one movie. Neither would I want a 10 part Twilight style epic. I wanted an ultimate Batman Vs Joker film and I got it. The whole "I made you, you made me first" is just that one final ingredient to give it that operatic showdown of hero vs villain. This isn't Nolan's bone dry literalism.. it's meant to be a dark operatic fantasy. Yet all fanboys can do is nitpick at tiny plot points that don't really matter. |
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#605 | ||
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,470
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![]() I hate this insinuation that fans are just acting intentinally biased if they so happen to enjoy all of a director's films thus far. I like all of Nolan's films, some more than others. I like all of Tarantino's films too, does that make me a "Tarantino-ite?". Writer/directors tend to have more devoted followers because they are truly the authors of their films, and therefore their films tend to have more of a unified creative voice. Burton, despite not being a writer was able to attract a following too because of his distinct visual style and preference for dark, quirky stories. For the past decade, he's done a fine job of directing the films he's made IMO, but he's also been at the mercy of the scripts he's chosen. And he probably made a few remakes/re-imaginings too many. I recommend Frankenweenie if you haven't seen it though, I think it's a real return to form for him, and Dark Shadows was enjoyable. Quote:
I agree with you actually. I even said a few pages back that it works as a dark operatic fairy tale, and I do get what they were going for. I think what those of us putting this plot point under the microscope are trying to say is, the Batman/Joker relationship doesn't need that added dynamic to be special, even in a movie. And the fact that they threw it in does feel like a bit of an emotional shortcut to add stakes to the finale. It absolutely worked on me as a kid, but in retrospect I can see where the detractors are coming from. |
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#606 | |||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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Just like those trendy contemporary film studies courses who try to be so 'avant garde' and on the 'cutting edge'. ![]() Doesn't change the fact he's a Michael Mann/Stanley Kubrick wannabe. Quote:
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![]() It's a pity the writers strike was going on, otherwise they might've found a better way around it. But it's all a big 'what if'. They did the best with what they had and delivered a damn fine movie. |
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#607 | |
Everything Under the Sun
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,861
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#608 | |
All Mighty
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,505
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2- I don't see how that one was bad, i actually liked it. |
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#609 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
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I'm sorry but I agree with OutRiddled. If you had a problem with Joker being the murderer of Bruce's parents in Burton's movie, then I don't see why you wouldn't have a problem with all of the liberties Nolan took with the mythology as well. Look at what he did to Robin! Talk about sacrilege!
Again, all Burton did was take the relationship between these two characters and turn it into something more. It didn't hurt the film, it made it better. |
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#610 | |||
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,470
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I can agree with that. I think Batman was a triumph despite its flaws, and it had to emerge against incredible odds to be what it was. Last edited by BatLobsterRises; 04-07-2013 at 12:24 PM. |
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#611 | ||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,898
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 04-07-2013 at 12:29 PM. |
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#612 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 425
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#613 | ||
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
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#614 | ||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,898
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All things he wanted before he met Ra's. All Ra's did was offer him the path to get it. No different to all those experts he got training from in the comics. He no more owes his existence as Batman to them than he does to Ra's in Begins. Not to mention Ra's thinking Bruce is the best man to run his organization and lead his men is taken straight from the comics. In Batman '89, his entire existence as Batman is down to the Joker. The Joker made him. He outright says so. Quote:
Batman created the Joker by dropping him in the chemicals. There's their destiny to clash right there. It's no more fate than the Penguin or Catwoman or any other subsequent villain. If you're a threat to Gotham City then you're going to clash with Batman. Dropping in at the last moment that Joker killed his parents turned a potentially interesting feud into a contrived unbelievable cliche, and ruined their feud.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#615 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 425
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But I had a huge problem withe Pre-Joker killing the Waynes. In my eyes that weakened the Batman - Joker relationship. So, where do I draw the line? Hard to tell. The Ra's story felt right for me, the B89-Joker being the Waynes' murderer not. |
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#616 | ||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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#617 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
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Batman's villains have always metaphorically symbolized a shade of Batman himself, and Burton's films are no different. Batman "created" Joker just as Jack "created" Batman. That's what defines their relationship in these movies. That's why their destines are intertwined. |
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#618 | |||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,898
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Says the guy who makes up personal statements from Nolan and the actors.
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If it was such an improvement on their relationship as you keep claiming, why did it never get adapted into the comics? It wouldn't be the first time DC took ideas for characterizations from movies or cartoons. Look at Mr. Freeze and Harley Quinn for example. I'll tell you why, because it's a terrible idea. Or maybe you're just too "narrow minded" to see that?
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#619 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,225
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Why are you so concerned with what other people think? Why do you need others to validate your opinion? I don't care what a bunch of hardcore Batman fans think. I'm sure there were hardcore Christians out there that didn't approve of The Last Temptation Of Christ but that doesn't mean I can't like it either.
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#620 | ||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,898
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#621 | ||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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Joker originally was just like any other villain. He showed up, caused trouble, and Batman had to deal with him. This special 'relationship' they had was invented decades later. |
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#622 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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Freeze was never given an origin, so it works perfectly fine. Harley Quinn is a completely new character. |
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#623 | ||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,898
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The only shift in power status was with Penguin. Who was always the number two Batman villain after Joker. Funny how that seemed to change after Batman Returns.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 04-07-2013 at 02:37 PM. |
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#624 | ||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,898
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#625 | ||
Banned User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 507
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"YOU COMPLETE ME!"
You know what I'm talking about, c'mon.. Quote:
Joe Chill first showed up in '39, and had several appearances after that. Most recently (before '89) in post-Crisis 1987 storyline Batman: Year Two - so a little harder to retcon than Mr Freeze at that point. Quote:
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