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Old 04-09-2013, 10:05 AM   #76
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

I'm saying the way the film was made, it required the previous films, otherwise it would have felt awkward. The story and script would have to have been completely different to achieve what you're describing. There's no way the movie would have done anything close to $1.5b...hell it might not have gotten $500m tbh.

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Old 04-09-2013, 01:54 PM   #77
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

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I'm saying the way the film was made, it required the previous films, otherwise it would have felt awkward. The story and script would have to have been completely different to achieve what you're describing. There's no way the movie would have done anything close to $1.5b...hell it might not have gotten $500m tbh.
I agree with you (for once) on this. Story-wise, it is a continuation from five films worth of character development and actual relevant plot. Sure, people watched the movie without having seen the previous films, but they only went because the hype machine that had been building for 4 years was hitting critical mass at that point. If they started with Avengers in 2008, my guess is it would have done as well as the first Iron Man movie, based on the same intrigue that RDJ brought to the table in 2008 that brought people to see the first Iron Man movie in the first place.

But let's also think of the history: in 2006-07, Marvel would not have been able to cast RDJ, Sam Jackson, Gwyneth Paltrow, Scarlett Johansson, Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, Jeremy Renner, Mark Ruffalo and Tom Hiddleston, let alone budget the thing with their start-up loan and given that Disney would not have bought it until it proved its viability as a studio. They probably would not have made the choice or even have been able to hire Whedon to write and direct the film.

The Avengers was able to succeed the way it did because it was built from extended years of planning, its growing reputation for bringing in oscar-level talent in successful solo films, the Disney purchase, and continued relationships with smaller effects studios from previous movies. Without the Phase One movies, it very well may have been a bite too big for a fledging Marvel Studios to chew.

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Old 04-11-2013, 08:26 PM   #78
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

I was just thinking. I fully expect each Iron Man 3, CA:TWS and Thor:TDW to be better films than their respective prequels (not including The Avengers). I realized this sets me up for some significant disappointment... But they all just seem so much more capable.

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Old 04-11-2013, 08:38 PM   #79
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

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I was just thinking. I fully expect each Iron Man 3, CA:TWS and Thor:TDW to be better films than their respective prequels (not including The Avengers). I realized this sets me up for some significant disappointment... But they all just seem so much more capable.
I'm feeling pretty much the same way. The origins are all out of the way and the characters are all huge household names now because of The Avengers; so I think storyline wise there is a lot of room for something special in all 3 cases.

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Old 04-11-2013, 10:38 PM   #80
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

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I'm feeling pretty much the same way. The origins are all out of the way and the characters are all huge household names now because of The Avengers; so I think storyline wise there is a lot of room for something special in all 3 cases.
Plus my major problems with all three franchises are looking like they are getting cleaned up. I hope I'm not wrong.

Thor - not enough action, not enough gruff dirty vikingness, not enough norse feel. Even his costume is looking more exciting to me.

Iron Man - Not enough focus on Iron Man (mostly blaming this on IM2) and finally a really great villain (IM and IM2 are both to blame imo)

Cap - Cramming cap's origin into one film was too much. Now that that's out of the way, we could get a solid film that delves deep into the MCU. And please god not another 3 minute musical montage.

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Old 04-12-2013, 01:15 AM   #81
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

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Plus my major problems with all three franchises are looking like they are getting cleaned up. I hope I'm not wrong.

Thor - not enough action, not enough gruff dirty vikingness, not enough norse feel. Even his costume is looking more exciting to me.

Iron Man - Not enough focus on Iron Man (mostly blaming this on IM2) and finally a really great villain (IM and IM2 are both to blame imo)

Cap - Cramming cap's origin into one film was too much. Now that that's out of the way, we could get a solid film that delves deep into the MCU. And please god not another 3 minute musical montage.
I love a good 3 minute musical montage .

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Old 04-12-2013, 01:17 AM   #82
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

If we're talking the "Star Spangled Man" scene, it's seriously one of my favorites of the MCU.

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Old 04-12-2013, 07:06 AM   #83
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

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I was just thinking. I fully expect each Iron Man 3, CA:TWS and Thor:TDW to be better films than their respective prequels (not including The Avengers). I realized this sets me up for some significant disappointment... But they all just seem so much more capable.
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Plus my major problems with all three franchises are looking like they are getting cleaned up. I hope I'm not wrong.

Thor - not enough action, not enough gruff dirty vikingness, not enough norse feel. Even his costume is looking more exciting to me.

Iron Man - Not enough focus on Iron Man (mostly blaming this on IM2) and finally a really great villain (IM and IM2 are both to blame imo)

Cap - Cramming cap's origin into one film was too much. Now that that's out of the way, we could get a solid film that delves deep into the MCU. And please god not another 3 minute musical montage.
It'll be crucial to see if they can get the balance right with IM3, the first solo sequel since IM2. Marvel has yet to deliver a truly great non-origin movie (I'm counting Avengers as an origin movie). I really do believe Feige when he says that each of these solo sequels will intentionally focus on the main character's own story and world, and adequately separating him from the broader scope of the MCU.

Cap 2 might be the trickiest in this respect since he'll be working closely with SHIELD, but given the characters they are introducing/reintroducing (Bucky, Zola, Falcon, Agent 13, Crossbones, Batroc), I can see TWS carving out a nice little new world for Cap and his own family of characters. Plus the source material is absolutely central to Cap's ongoing journey, and scale-wise even smaller than CA:TFA.

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Old 04-13-2013, 09:12 AM   #84
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

Bear in mind, Captain is supposed to be a leader. Its not at all inappropriate that Cap should always have lots of people around him, because you can't be a leader on your own.

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Old 04-13-2013, 11:52 PM   #85
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

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I love a good 3 minute musical montage .
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If we're talking the "Star Spangled Man" scene, it's seriously one of my favorites of the MCU.
I won't say I hated the scene. And I'll even admit I'm glad it was in the film. It did a great job explaining away his costume and made for a fun giggly moment. Unfortunately, for me, I felt that moment couldve been a good 1-1.5 minutes shorter, possibly in favor of extended action scenes.

On a similar topic, I love all the costumes thus far in the MCU and how they all make enough sense in the world to not distract from the films themselves. So considering "Star Spangled Man" was my only eye-roller in a 6 film series of superhero costumes... That's pretty good.

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Old 04-13-2013, 11:56 PM   #86
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

Even Ant-Man, Falcon and the Guardians are getting the great "faithful but believable adaptation" treatment. Not to mention all 11-12 villains in Phase 2. *excited*

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Old 04-14-2013, 12:00 AM   #87
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

Ehh, we're getting farther away from believable and into the territory of just what doesn't look silly on screen now with the characters you mentioned, tbh.

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Old 04-14-2013, 12:22 AM   #88
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

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Ehh, we're getting farther away from believable and into the territory of just what doesn't look silly on screen now with the characters you mentioned, tbh.
Now hold on. My main point is that these characters (superheroes in general but these specifically) in the comics would wear crazy costumes even if it wasn't required. But in the MCU, they are all given reasons.

Iron Man/War Machine/Iron Monger/Whiplash - self explanatory
The Mandarin - eccentric mentally depraved wealthy terrorist leader.
Captain America - Initially wore the costume to inspire Americans, continues to wear it to inspire the old-fashioned ideal of inspiring good.
Red Skull - Nazi science experiment gone wrong.
Thor/Loki/Malekith - wear finely crafted other-worldly armor ceremoniously and for battle.
Ant-Man - Will undoubtedly wear his costume to shrink along with his body and communicate with insects.
Falcon/Black Widow/Hawkeye/Nick Fury/Maria Hill - SHIELD uniforms mandated and designed for specific missions and skillsets.
Star Lord - mask and suit designed for a human in space and other hazardous environments
Rocket - mask and suit designed for a raccoon in space and other hazardous environments
Gamora/Drax - more alien clothing/armor
Groot - naked
Hulk/Abomination - mostly naked

I think what I'm saying is I'm glad that gone are the days of Richard Donner's Superman costume that served no purpose. No identity was hidden, no protection was given, aerodynamics likely weren't taken into account, it wasn't required for his super powers. Nothing. No purpose.

I'd argue the same about Burton/Schumacher's Batman costumes, Daredevil, Green Lantern, Thing, Dr. Doom and several other villains throughout CBM history. The MCU (alongside Mr. Nolan) on the other hand, does it right.

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Old 04-22-2013, 07:14 AM   #89
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

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No one would have understood who those characters were. It worked the way it did specifically because of all the build up. If we would not have had the phase 2 movies and just jumped right into Avengers the only people who would be happy and understand what was going on would have been comic book fans...all of 300,000 people.
But you didn't need to know who those characters were, the film isn't about any one of them, it's about the formation of the team. Does it add to the experience to have seen all the solo films? Of course, but Avengers is set up in a way that's accessible to everybody regardless of whether or not they have seen the solo films. If you look at it purely objectively there's nothing from the solo films that genuinely affects the story of Avengers. It's a 'getting the band back together' type of movie done with superheroes, who the villain is really doesn't matter, what the characters did before hand doesn't matter, all that matters is the threat present in the movie and how these characters deal with it. That's it. There's nothing overly confusing about the movie if you haven't seen any other solo films, hell my mother only saw Iron Man and enjoyed the crap out of it. So I'll stand by my comment that the film was going to be a success one way or the other - because it's good.

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Old 04-22-2013, 08:37 PM   #90
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Obviously you knew who the characters are and their histories before seeing any of the individual films or the team up. For someone like myself who does not read the comics, I needed those stories to explore the characters and their relationships for the Avengers to make sense. When Stark utters "Is that the guy my dad was always talking about?" WTF is that supposed to mean if you don't know their respective backstories? How are all these characters connected through history? Who the **** is Thor and why is he here? He's a God but all of a sudden he shows up? What, why? How does he know Loki and what is their relationship? "Did you mourn?" What is he talking about? What's that blue cube tessa-whatever and why is it important? Does the cube just teleport people? Nope, it also opens wormholes and it's a power source with it's own mind, "She's behaving." Who's this scientist guy and why is he important? Who's the black guy with one eye? A flying aircraft carrier? Ok, I'm turning this off. ALL of the story for this film was told in the previous films. There are subtle and not so subtle connections made in every film.

No there is not anything overly confusing if you just apply generic labels to the characters and go along with the film completely ignoring dialogue and suspending all disbelief. Loki is the bad guy, the heroes get together to save earth. I loved the Avengers because of the connections between these characters that dates back to WW2. How these films are interconnected makes the Avengers that much more enjoyable.

I am not a comic reader and I don't expect to see Justice League in the theatres because there is no buildup of the characters, but I did see Avengers there. I never had strong feelings for Cap or Thor until I saw their individual films, and I loved them. DC won't be doing that with their characters and that allows me to continue my negative thoughts about the characters involved (Aquaman is a *****). The individual films of the MCU allowed me to connect with the characters before the Avengers, making the team-up film much more epic than it otherwise would have been.

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Old 04-23-2013, 12:55 AM   #91
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

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Obviously you knew who the characters are and their histories before seeing any of the individual films or the team up. For someone like myself who does not read the comics, I needed those stories to explore the characters and their relationships for the Avengers to make sense. When Stark utters ''Is that the guy my dad was always talking about?'' WTF is that supposed to mean if you don't know their respective backstories? How are all these characters connected through history? Who the **** is Thor and why is he here? He's a God but all of a sudden he shows up? What, why? How does he know Loki and what is their relationship? ''Did you mourn?'' What is he talking about? What's that blue cube tessa-whatever and why is it important? Does the cube just teleport people? Nope, it also opens wormholes and it's a power source with it's own mind, "She's behaving." Who's this scientist guy and why is he important? Who's the black guy with one eye? A flying aircraft carrier? Ok, I'm turning this off. ALL of the story for this film was told in the previous films. There are subtle and not so subtle connections made in every film.

No there is not anything overly confusing if you just apply generic labels to the characters and go along with the film completely ignoring dialogue and suspending all disbelief. Loki is the bad guy, the heroes get together to save earth. I loved the Avengers because of the connections between these characters that dates back to WW2. How these films are interconnected makes the Avengers that much more enjoyable.

I am not a comic reader and I don't expect to see Justice League in the theatres because there is no buildup of the characters, but I did see Avengers there. I never had strong feelings for Cap or Thor until I saw their individual films, and I loved them. DC won't be doing that with their characters and that allows me to continue my negative thoughts about the characters involved (Aquaman is a *****). The individual films of the MCU allowed me to connect with the characters before the Avengers, making the team-up film much more epic than it otherwise would have been.
I get the experience is enhanced if you've seen the solo films, but again it's not a necessity. The odd line or two referencing them doesn't take away the fact that what happened in those movies for the most part isn't important to what happens in the team up movie. In fact it would have been a huge mistake to have leaned on the solo film anymore, the accessibility of the movie supersedes the need to have seen the previous films. It's a very simple story, enhanced by the films before it yes, but overall that film was destined to be a success regardless of those solo films or not.

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Old 04-23-2013, 01:53 AM   #92
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@jmc: Yes, Avengers would have been a success no matter what. The movie was too well written and executed not to be successful. However, I think you underestimate the SCALE of how successful it would have been, minus the solo films.

Whether the average audience member skipped a couple of solo films or not, the fact of the matter remains that these characters had been a part of the collective consciousness for the better part of 4 years.

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Old 04-23-2013, 02:21 AM   #93
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@jmc: Yes, Avengers would have been a success no matter what. The movie was too well written and executed not to be successful. However, I think you underestimate the SCALE of how successful it would have been, minus the solo films.

Whether the average audience member skipped a couple of solo films or not, the fact of the matter remains that these characters had been a part of the collective consciousness for the better part of 4 years.

I'm not underestimating the scale, I said as much it wouldn't be nearly as big, I'm saying it would have been a success regardless.

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Old 04-23-2013, 03:34 AM   #94
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I fully expect each Iron Man 3, CA:TWS and Thor:TDW to be better films than their respective prequels (not including The Avengers).
I expect the opposite.

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Old 04-23-2013, 04:28 AM   #95
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I expect the opposite.
What do you mean???!!! Iron Man 3 looks to be the best one yet. The Thor trailer just released was EPIC and even one of the writers for the Winter Soldier storyline in the comics said Cap: TWS could be one of the greatest comic film

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Old 04-23-2013, 05:34 AM   #96
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

Watching the new Thor trailer makes me think that this would have been the perfect movie to introduce Brian Braddock....

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Old 04-23-2013, 06:33 AM   #97
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

I am thinking Phase 2 will only Be:
1. Iron Man 3
2. Thor: The Dark World
3. Captain America 2
4. Guardians of the Galaxy
5. Avengers 2

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Old 04-23-2013, 06:46 AM   #98
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I am thinking Phase 2 will only Be:
1. Iron Man 3
2. Thor: The Dark World
3. Captain America 2
4. Guardians of the Galaxy
5. Avengers 2
It's been confirmed that's what it is hasn't it?

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Old 04-23-2013, 08:23 AM   #99
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

Yup, a real long time ago too.

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Old 04-23-2013, 08:29 AM   #100
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Default Re: MCU: Phase II - Part 2

I'm thinking the Phase 1 movies we could get are:

Iron Man
The Incredible Hulk
Maybe Iron Man 2
Thor
Captain America
Possibly leading to an Avengers movie.

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