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Old 04-13-2013, 11:28 AM   #201
milost
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post

Blake saves Gordon, a knock is heard in that scene and then we see the scene where Blake is at Wayne Manor. THAT'S the kind of bad editing I am referring to.
It's a transition, not bad editing. But thank you Anno, thank you.



XT. WATER TREATMENT FACILITY - NIGHT

Blake comes out to the catchment basin. He spots something
stuck up against the grille, thrusts his hand into the
raging waters - Gordon is there, alive. Just. Blake pulls
him up onto the concrete, hoists him up, hurrying...

INT. FRONT HALL, WAYNE MANOR - DAY
Alfred opens the door to reveal Blake in his dirty uniform.

BLAKE
I need to see Bruce Wayne.

ALFRED
Iím sorry, Mr. Wayne doesnít take
unscheduled calls. Even from police





How else do you transition to something that abrupt, that quickly? If anything, the editor should be commended for editing that monster.


Again, don't blame the editor, blame the script writers. The script is all over the damn place and it's not neat and logical like the last two Lord of the Rings films or other movies that jump from different characters and events.


Besides, isn't Nolan right there in the editing room telling the editor what to do? C'mon.



Last edited by milost; 04-13-2013 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:41 PM   #202
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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That edit is basically to intercut between actions that are happening at the same time. That is way of positioning time in both moments. And so he transitions , as BatLobsterRises, splitting between image and sound for the transition. So we star with her , we hear the other scene (someone speaking) starts before transition , scene plays out , cuts back to her , and he employs the same technique again (this time what triggers the transition is Alfred's voice...and it happens even another time when it goes outside to Foley).

I would say it was an easy way to intercut scenes that weren't very strong (also with the outside ) , and at the same time to define parallel actions (in time). With the scenes playing out completely and individually (her climbing with total silence , and the little dialog between alfred , miranda and the australian guy , and a little scene with the cops) maybe the pacing would be a little off. Hard to say without seeing it like that. Also it mixes well knowing that Bruce's is hold up in there (dagget says that) and so it contextualizes the space and action of Cat's going there alone , in silence.
I stll find the staircase scene to be pointless. Its visually uninteresting and doesn't accomplish anything we the audience can't infer on our own. It's Nolan's film tho so I concede.

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Old 04-13-2013, 04:03 PM   #203
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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I stll find the staircase scene to be pointless. Its visually uninteresting and doesn't accomplish anything we the audience can't infer on our own. It's Nolan's film tho so I concede.
I had missed your post.

What you've wrote doesn't even happen in the movie. The ascending the staircase scene follows after Alfred in the kitchen (its a direct continuation of what is established in there) . That's why after , it goes back and cuts back (to a scene where she open's the door , a slight push in with the camera , she puts down the tray and observes a open door)...because he had interrupted it.

But yeah they are pretty mundane shots and scenes.

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Old 04-13-2013, 05:43 PM   #204
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
No, you're definitely not alone. Its particularly bad when you consider that the obtrusive staircase scene is in, but this lovely shot ended up on the cutting room floor:



Literally the moment of Bruce's re-entrance into society. The way he is going through a doorway into an old life. The birth metaphor. Gone. Cut. Lost.
I know scenes/dialogue always get cut out of films, but this film draws a lot of red flags because of IMAX limitations. It really is a beautiful shot though. Shame it got cut.

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Originally Posted by Tequilla View Post
That edit is basically to intercut between actions that are happening at the same time. That his way of positioning time in both moments. And so he transitions , as BatLobsterRises, splitting between image and sound for the transition. So we start with her , we hear the other scene (someone speaking) starts before transition , scene plays out , cuts back to her , and he employs the same technique again (this time what triggers the transition is Alfred's voice...and it happens even another time when it goes outside to Foley).

I would say it was an easy way to intercut scenes that weren't very strong (also with the outside ) , and at the same time to define parallel actions (in time). With the scenes playing out completely and individually (her climbing with total silence , and the little dialog between alfred , miranda and the australian guy , and a little scene with the cops) maybe the pacing would be a little off. Hard to say without seeing it like that. Also it mixes well knowing that Bruce's is hold up in there (dagget says that) and so it contextualizes the space and action of Cat's going there alone , in silence.
Ah, I see. It still seems jarring whenever I watch that scene, but thanks for the little explanation.



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Old 04-13-2013, 07:25 PM   #205
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
I don't think thats 'bad' editing. There's a name for that kind of transition, it's called an "L cut", which is basically rolling audio from the next scene under the end of the current scene. It's a pretty common and effective technique for getting from one scene to another. It's usually kind of subliminal. I never even quite realized the knock was heard before we cut to Wayne Manor before you just pointed it out.

And to me, if it was subliminal then that usually means it's good editing. But since you noticed it I guess it took you out of the movie, so fair enough.
I would certainly call it bad editing as even as any kind of transition, I always found it to be a very bad one. The build up of Blake saving Gordon and then a random knock...confused the hell out of me until we actually saw the next scene. Did not like it, lol.

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Originally Posted by milost View Post
But thank you Anno, thank you.
I'm gonna just take this thank you from you gladly since you've been a jerk to me beforehand

Quote:
XT. WATER TREATMENT FACILITY - NIGHT

Blake comes out to the catchment basin. He spots something
stuck up against the grille, thrusts his hand into the
raging waters - Gordon is there, alive. Just. Blake pulls
him up onto the concrete, hoists him up, hurrying...

INT. FRONT HALL, WAYNE MANOR - DAY
Alfred opens the door to reveal Blake in his dirty uniform.

BLAKE
I need to see Bruce Wayne.

ALFRED
I’m sorry, Mr. Wayne doesn’t take
unscheduled calls. Even from police





How else do you transition to something that abrupt, that quickly? If anything, the editor should be commended for editing that monster.


"That monster"? How so?

What makes it any better than to wait and they show the next scene where Blake is knocking on Wayne Manor?

Quote:
Again, don't blame the editor, blame the script writers. The script is all over the damn place and it's not neat and logical like the last two Lord of the Rings films or other movies that jump from different characters and events.
No need to blame the writers when the part on the script is absolutely fine.

Quote:
Besides, isn't Nolan right there in the editing room telling the editor what to do? C'mon.
Quote:
An editor should have at least some say-so when he/she is an editor, or is this just another of your attempts at making TDKR just this terrible project from the beginning by saying Nolan should get all the blame now? Lol.

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Old 04-13-2013, 07:47 PM   #206
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Monster as in behemoth. It's huge, bloated with "stuff". You've got multiple characters (with nearly half being unimportant secondaries) with multiple plot points converging. Yeah, we can process it and I'd be lying if some of the concepts and ideas weren't cool but it just seems like a mess. Like a an early, early draft with all these ideas that need to be revised and cut.

We're in Gotham, now we're in an unknown pit in the ground. Oh, here's a bomb. Blake just killed a guy, oh snap they're gonna kill Gordon! No they're not, Gordon just took them out. Final Batman and Bane fight? Let's cut away to two other happenings across the city like Episode I the Phantom Menace while this chant is booming.


For me all of TDKR makes the Dark Knight's third act seem clean and slow.


It wouldn't have hurt the film if they took their time in some places. It shouldn't be a presentation of sprinting to the end. Certain areas of the movie should set the mood. How about one of the first scenes we ever saw in a trailer? Where Bruce (or ski-masked "Batman") visits Gordon in the hospital for the first time in 8 years? That should be a thoughtful, touching scene that takes it's time. Show Gordon's response to seeing his old friend since "that night" after this stranger comes through the window. Show the shock. Don't just cut quickly and skip things where you have Bruce going down the window, then right at Gordon's side with less than a minute left. That's a BIG moment isn't it? Hell, they spend more time with Bane and Bruce in the pit with Bane's speech then they do with that scene.

No time to savor it, take it all in. Most of the movie is like that. BAM, BAM, BAM, throwing mud on the wall and hoping it sticks. I don't think anyone expects Tarantino like dialogue or scenes where it's all about slow build up and character interaction but a little more "being in the moment" would be nice instead of racing off to stop plot device A or B every 20 seconds.











You blame the editor, I blame the story tellers. The editor has to make sense of what was shot and make it as close to the script as possible. I watch TDKR and it seems just like the script (except with some touching, long moments, like exchanges between characters such as Bruce and Alfred cut out) come to life. How that's the editor's fault is beyond me. Not when you're dealing with all of this story and locations and characters.


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Old 04-13-2013, 08:03 PM   #207
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

TDKR was a monster for sure, but it isn't the mess you would like to think of it as.

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Old 04-13-2013, 08:15 PM   #208
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Quote:
Originally Posted by milost View Post
It wouldn't have hurt the film if they took their time in some places. It shouldn't be a presentation of sprinting to the end. Certain areas of the movie should set the mood. How about one of the first scenes we ever saw in a trailer? Where Bruce (or ski-masked "Batman") visits Gordon in the hospital for the first time in 8 years? That should be a thoughtful, touching scene that takes it's time. Show Gordon's response to seeing his old friend since "that night" after this stranger comes through the window. Show the shock. Don't just cut quickly and skip things where you have Bruce going down the window, then right at Gordon's side with less than a minute left. That's a BIG moment isn't it? Hell, they spend more time with Bane and Bruce in the pit with Bane's speech then they do with that scene.

No time to savor it, take it all in. Most of the movie is like that. BAM, BAM, BAM, throwing mud on the wall and hoping it sticks. I don't think anyone expects Tarantino like dialogue or scenes where it's all about slow build up and character interaction but a little more "being in the moment" would be nice instead of racing off to stop plot device A or B every 20 seconds.

You blame the editor, I blame the story tellers. The editor has to make sense of what was shot and make it as close to the script as possible. I watch TDKR and it seems just like the script (except with some touching, long moments, like exchanges between characters such as Bruce and Alfred cut out) come to life. How that's the editor's fault is beyond me. Not when you're dealing with all of this story and locations and characters.

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Old 04-14-2013, 01:56 PM   #209
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

I agree with Milost and Anno. Both the script and editing wasn't very good. In fact, it seemed as though they were trying to wrap up the entire series in one film (which I didn't like). I'd rather have it be similar to the TDK as it's own story with very little time spent on BB. Or in this case TDK.

I felt like the editing and transitions in the beginning of the TDKR were awful. Some people on this board liked the fast paced beginning, but I didn't like how they were recapping or reiterating the events of TDK. If you needed a recap, you can watch TDK.

Another thing, I'm assuming that the Havey Dent Ceremony was the 8 year anniversary right? Did they ever mention that? Because it felt like this was the first time they were having that ceremony. If so, it's just another reason why the 8 year gap was a poor choice.


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Old 04-14-2013, 02:02 PM   #210
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Woah, woah, woah....you get one name right, but the other wrong? So not cool...

I will not be inviting you to my birthday party now

But, anywho...they mentioned that the Harvey Dent Day was the exact night that Dent died, so it's reasonable to say this was the 8th anniversary.


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Old 04-14-2013, 02:10 PM   #211
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Woah, woah, woah....you get one name right, but the other wrong? So not cool...

I will not be inviting you to by birthday party now

But, anywho...they mentioned that the Harvey Dent Day was the exact night that Dent died, so it's reasonable to say this was the 8th anniversary.
You missed it, I already changed it while you were replying. Sorry about that.

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Old 04-14-2013, 02:45 PM   #212
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Hahaha, the feeling when you try to correct someone who misspelled your name when you have a misspelling on your own post

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Old 04-26-2013, 03:01 AM   #213
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Only thing I hated about tdkr was watching a long ass movie with a good villain to have him simply be shot by catwoman so abruptly. They could have done anything else and it would have been better

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Old 04-26-2013, 02:23 PM   #214
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I'm totally fine with Catwoman blasting Bane away with a missile, but it's that one-liner Catwoman drops afterwards...I wish she didn't say that at all. Catwoman blasting Bane away doesn't take anything from the villain, but the one-liner does like it's mentioned to grab some laughs.

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Old 04-26-2013, 10:04 PM   #215
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I'm cool with her making light of a brutal man's death. It didn't affect her because she thought nothing of him except fear.

A reference to their "no guns, no killing" - "where's the fun in that?" rooftop exchange. For her, there is some fun in it.

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Old 04-27-2013, 06:44 PM   #216
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Originally Posted by milost View Post
Monster as in behemoth. It's huge, bloated with "stuff". You've got multiple characters (with nearly half being unimportant secondaries) with multiple plot points converging. Yeah, we can process it and I'd be lying if some of the concepts and ideas weren't cool but it just seems like a mess. Like a an early, early draft with all these ideas that need to be revised and cut.

We're in Gotham, now we're in an unknown pit in the ground. Oh, here's a bomb. Blake just killed a guy, oh snap they're gonna kill Gordon! No they're not, Gordon just took them out. Final Batman and Bane fight? Let's cut away to two other happenings across the city like Episode I the Phantom Menace while this chant is booming.


For me all of TDKR makes the Dark Knight's third act seem clean and slow.


It wouldn't have hurt the film if they took their time in some places. It shouldn't be a presentation of sprinting to the end. Certain areas of the movie should set the mood. How about one of the first scenes we ever saw in a trailer? Where Bruce (or ski-masked "Batman") visits Gordon in the hospital for the first time in 8 years? That should be a thoughtful, touching scene that takes it's time. Show Gordon's response to seeing his old friend since "that night" after this stranger comes through the window. Show the shock. Don't just cut quickly and skip things where you have Bruce going down the window, then right at Gordon's side with less than a minute left. That's a BIG moment isn't it? Hell, they spend more time with Bane and Bruce in the pit with Bane's speech then they do with that scene.

No time to savor it, take it all in. Most of the movie is like that. BAM, BAM, BAM, throwing mud on the wall and hoping it sticks. I don't think anyone expects Tarantino like dialogue or scenes where it's all about slow build up and character interaction but a little more "being in the moment" would be nice instead of racing off to stop plot device A or B every 20 seconds.











You blame the editor, I blame the story tellers. The editor has to make sense of what was shot and make it as close to the script as possible. I watch TDKR and it seems just like the script (except with some touching, long moments, like exchanges between characters such as Bruce and Alfred cut out) come to life. How that's the editor's fault is beyond me. Not when you're dealing with all of this story and locations and characters.
I've tried to put this problem into words, but not as well as you have. You hit the nail right on the head.

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Old 04-27-2013, 07:42 PM   #217
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

It's probably just the pacing, but I always felt like there was a scene cut out between the scene where Batman gives Catwoman the bat-pod and when we see the cops standing in silence before the final battle commences.

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Old 04-27-2013, 07:58 PM   #218
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According to the script there isn't.

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Old 04-27-2013, 09:20 PM   #219
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According to the script there isn't.
I figured as much. It's just odd that we see Catwoman taking off on the bat-pod and then, bam, cut to the American flag all ripped up signaling the beginning of the epic final battle.

But that's just me. I still love the third act, of course.

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Old 04-27-2013, 09:58 PM   #220
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The flag was added in as that's not even mentioned on the script(although I really like that addition as it reflects to this being a real war). It's Catwoman riding off and then showing the rugged GCPD on their way to City Hall.

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Old 04-28-2013, 12:26 AM   #221
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The flag was a fantastic little detail

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Old 04-28-2013, 12:57 PM   #222
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Only thing I hated about tdkr was watching a long ass movie with a good villain to have him simply be shot by catwoman so abruptly. They could have done anything else and it would have been better
I agree. It was horrible.

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A reference to their "no guns, no killing" - "where's the fun in that?" rooftop exchange. For her, there is some fun in it.
If it was to be funny, it didn't work. It didn't work anyway. She was killing Bane.

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Old 04-28-2013, 01:22 PM   #223
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The flag was a fantastic little detail
It gave the scene a french revolution vibe. Democracy shredded, and the people standing up against the tyrant on his hill. Or something like that. It evokes a lot to be such a small detail.

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Old 04-28-2013, 02:15 PM   #224
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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I'm totally fine with Catwoman blasting Bane away with a missile, but it's that one-liner Catwoman drops afterwards...I wish she didn't say that at all. Catwoman blasting Bane away doesn't take anything from the villain, but the one-liner does like it's mentioned to grab some laughs.
I stand by that because it is Catwoman (i.e. the girl) who kills Bane instead of Batman (the male hero) that fans make far too much out of this. It was a great scene FOR HER. Batman had already defeated Bane and Talia had instantly become the bigger threat. It was a nice moment for Catwoman that did not really cost Bane anything, unless some people really dislike seeing a woman kill the bad guy.

That is just what this line of argument has always seemed to be to me.

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Old 04-28-2013, 02:22 PM   #225
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But when should it be more important for a character like Catwoman who's just riding on the thin line of hero and villain, to kill Bane and top it off with a one-liner? It is in no way a sexist thing and it'll be silly to think it is. It's more as a Catwoman not being a true hero thing.

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