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Old 03-26-2013, 11:32 PM   #126
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Default Re: What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

Widow using a handgun in the NYC fight was a joke. Where were her Widow's bites?

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Old 03-27-2013, 09:19 AM   #127
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Default Re: What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

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For me the climactic battle is the weakest part of the film...writing-wise. The military went straight to the nuclear option without deploying troops. Cloverfield is a perfect example of the military in action. Guns and tanks, helicopters and jets, bombing runs then nukes.
What's ironic is that we know Whedon filmed more footage involving the military taking some action against the Chitauri invasion, but for some reason he chose to take it out of the final cut of the film.

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Old 03-27-2013, 02:09 PM   #128
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A two and a half hour movie is long enough without showing the military stealing screen time from our heroes.

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Old 03-28-2013, 02:46 AM   #129
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What's ironic is that we know Whedon filmed more footage involving the military taking some action against the Chitauri invasion, but for some reason he chose to take it out of the final cut of the film.
Maybe it had something to do with the whole "if the government/military is involved, does SHIELD answer to them or the government answer to SHIELD?"..I remember reading something along those lines for why they couldn't use actual military tech or make direct references to the Army. I took their wanting to distance themselves from SHIELD and the hellicarriers and all that as sort of their "denial" that it all exists; which in turns mean that maybe it does mwahahaha.

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The one (okay, the MAIN) thing I would have changed about the Avengers would be to have left the scene between Steve Rogers and the waitress at the outdoor cafe in the movie. I recall wondering what was the big deal was about the blonde seeing Cap without his helmet. Knowing they had interacted before would have given way more meaning to the later scenes IMO.
They definitely should have had that in there because it gave just enough background on who Cap was and showed his out of placedness. That would have been enough for people who didn't watch TFA to get him, IMO. Definitely should have been in the movie, idk why they cut that part out.


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Old 03-28-2013, 08:05 AM   #130
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Default Re: What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

The only thing I didn't like about Avengers was the use of Black Widow instead of Giant man and Wasp. I'm not a huge fan of Scarlet Jo - felt she was out of place in Iron Man 2 and out of place here.

Oh, one more, the use of ACDC and other metal musicians in Iron Man films and here. I always thought these movies deserved a traditional score (even in the credits) rather than s***** mainstream rock.

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Old 03-28-2013, 08:09 AM   #131
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There is very little I didn't like in this film. Most importantly, the lack of tension and human collateral damage in the climactic fight; less importantly, Cap's costume. Seems like a petty complaint but his horrendous costume takes me out of the film everytime I see the film. Especially the scenes in daylight. The night (his battle with Loki in Germany and the threeway with Iron Man and Thor) masks it a little better.
Agreed. The fighting was excellent but no one died? Seriously? It diminishes the threat greatly when the invading Chitauri army causes billions of dollars in damage but no loss of life. I understand that showing civilians being vaporized would be a little dark but at least reference the destruction caused. Even a throwaway line in a news broadcast about thousands dying would have worked.

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Old 03-28-2013, 08:44 AM   #132
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Agreed. The fighting was excellent but no one died? Seriously? It diminishes the threat greatly when the invading Chitauri army causes billions of dollars in damage but no loss of life. I understand that showing civilians being vaporized would be a little dark but at least reference the destruction caused. Even a throwaway line in a news broadcast about thousands dying would have worked.
I thought it was referenced by showing clips of various candlelight vigils/make-shift memorials/memorial walls during the news montage? *shrugs shoulders* doesn't seem events like those would be happening if people hadn't died during the attack.

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Old 03-28-2013, 09:00 AM   #133
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I thought it was referenced by showing clips of various candlelight vigils/make-shift memorials/memorial walls during the news montage? *shrugs shoulders* doesn't seem events like those would be happening if people hadn't died during the attack.
I'll concede a little given that point. I guess they did show it to a degree. I was simply stating that I would have preferred a stronger showing of loss and destruction but there was some reference, if limited...

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Old 03-28-2013, 09:46 AM   #134
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Default Re: What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

I prefer the super heroics and beatdown of the villain as opposed to seeing people die. Besides, I'm sure a lot of people ran inside.

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Old 03-30-2013, 12:31 AM   #135
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Yeah, we need body parts flying around and dead bodies in pools of blood because that will make our heroes look more heroic!

C'mon, man. Showing that stuff would distract from the point of the film: The Heroes.

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Old 03-30-2013, 01:55 AM   #136
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Default Re: What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

But it wouldn't hurt to remind folks on what the stakes are for the heroes as well. I'm not saying that we should see gore and stuff. Look at how the LOTR films have managed to find a great balance in showcasing their heroes during the big scale battles, while commenting on the toll that it's taking on the civilians caught within the crossfire.

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Old 03-30-2013, 07:12 AM   #137
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Default Re: What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

Transformers showed the deceptions vaporizing people in the third film, no blood or anything and I feel it did elevate the threat level in that.

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Old 03-30-2013, 01:26 PM   #138
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We saw a space whale go through a building but we're gonna assume no one was in it because we didn't see bodies falling. We saw the Chitauri blast packed city streets but they didn't hurt anyone because we didn't see any charred remains.

The point is, these things do not have to be shown on screen for folks to understand it was still happening. Especially with the scrolling screens at the end of the film showing the memorials and the celebrations, people died, film makers understand they don't have to show it for (most of) the audience to get it.

That said, I'm arguing with your opinion so I'm gonna stop, but showing dead people or people being vaporized, I believe would have changed the feel of the film. I think that showing deaths on film would be seen as a failure of the heroes, leaving the audience less enthusiastic about our heroes. You could ask yourself "Why the hell are they smiling and looking so smug? People died and these guys are going on vacation!" Instead, we are given multiple screens showing people praising the Avengers, except for one douche who won't be re-elected because he's a hater (hey, dumb****, you wouldn't even have a city if it weren't for the Avengers so go **** yourself).

I would love to see a film where some of these suggested changes take place, not because I agree with them but because I want to understand the reason why these ideas weren't included.

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Old 04-13-2013, 07:45 PM   #139
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Default Re: What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

Cap's lack of use

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Old 04-14-2013, 05:26 AM   #140
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Default Re: What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

There was about Equal use of every hero Lee. Tho I do wish they left the Man out of Time scene in the film.

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Old 04-14-2013, 02:16 PM   #141
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Default Re: What people DIDN'T like from The Avenger ........Spoilers - Part 2

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There was about Equal use of every hero Lee. Tho I do wish they left the Man out of Time scene in the film.
That scene was great. I'm still wondering why it was cut.

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Old 04-14-2013, 10:39 PM   #142
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A two and a half hour movie is long enough without showing the military stealing screen time from our heroes.
It's not about stealing time from the heroes. Showing the military being ineffectual against the aliens would have done two things: 1) it would have added to the tension of the climax. Conventional forces are useless, who can we turn to? The Avengers purpose in the world is now clearer. 2) it makes sense. Going straight to the nuclear option is not the proper procedure. While there isn't a standing procedure for alien invasions there is one for invasion from a hostile nation. Imagine if North Korea invaded Seattle...would our first option be nuking the city????

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Old 04-15-2013, 01:46 PM   #143
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Either the militaries bullets wouldn't work (while Hawkeye's arrows and Widow's bullets, do) making them pathetic or the military would take care of the problem because they have a lot of bullets. There is no convenient, easy fit for the military. The police do mention the National Guard taking an hour to show up right before Cap tells them to keep the streets clear.

If North Korea invaded... America? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The United States being invaded by anyone is as fictional as super heroes. You don't nuke Seattle, you nuke North Korea, that's the difference between an invasion by a country and an alien force. I expect the Security Council would have shoved the nuke up the Chitauri's ass if they had thought it were possible. Iron Man made it possible.

No, the nuke would not be the first response, the Avengers would . The military would not add to the tension, they would steal it. What added to the climax was one of our heroes "laying down on the wire" and sacrificing himself to intercept and guide the nuke through the wormhole to destroy the mothership and end the Chitauri threat. How does the military make that ending better?

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Old 04-15-2013, 08:15 PM   #144
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Saw this the other day with a friend, who did not like it one bit and I dislike it more and more I see it. My main complaints: 1. The biggest I have is that the story or lack thereof is ass. There is nothing here, now I know they need a simple story for this movie because of all the characters but this simple? eh. 2. The dialogue, its so corny and a lot of it is cringe worthy, this is a movie that isn't going to hold up well when it comes to that. 3. Lack of anything good for Thor and Captain America, its obvious that Whedon likes to write for Tony Stark because its easy and he probably wanted to be up to the challenge of making The Hulk good but he doesn't seem to care too much about Captain America and Thor because they do almost nothing in this movie. They should have some of the best action but yet when you get to the final battle who is it focused on? Iron Man, Hulk, and Black Widow. 4. Lack of tension in the final battle. There is absolutely none. Yeah I understand that they imply that the aliens kill lots of people but yet everytime we see the aliens get close to a human they miss every shot or for convenience of plot take them hostage for absolutely no reason. 5. Loki is a boring villain and does nothing for me. His plot is dumb, his intentions are dumb, and they completely destroy everything his character has worked for in 2 movies for just a stupid joke. 6. Needing Coulson's death to inspire them to work together. Really? The fate of the world isn't inspiration enough. Some heroes they are. 7. The final battle is nice candy but they never are really fighting together, the supposed amazing tracking shot had some awful awful cg and it takes me out immediately, not too mention the aliens are very very meh and decent cg but nothing special. Thus I thought it went on for too long. Plus the whole nuke thing was beyond moronic, I mean really just ugh stupid. I would have preferred a big showdown with a single bad guy or 2 going against the group.

I first gave this movie a 9/10 because I like everyone was head over heels for the last half hour but as I see this more and more ugh its nothing special. 7/10

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Old 04-15-2013, 08:30 PM   #145
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Either the militaries bullets wouldn't work (while Hawkeye's arrows and Widow's bullets, do) making them pathetic or the military would take care of the problem because they have a lot of bullets. There is no convenient, easy fit for the military. The police do mention the National Guard taking an hour to show up right before Cap tells them to keep the streets clear.

If North Korea invaded... America? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The United States being invaded by anyone is as fictional as super heroes. You don't nuke Seattle, you nuke North Korea, that's the difference between an invasion by a country and an alien force. I expect the Security Council would have shoved the nuke up the Chitauri's ass if they had thought it were possible. Iron Man made it possible.

No, the nuke would not be the first response, the Avengers would . The military would not add to the tension, they would steal it. What added to the climax was one of our heroes "laying down on the wire" and sacrificing himself to intercept and guide the nuke through the wormhole to destroy the mothership and end the Chitauri threat. How does the military make that ending better?
it adds to the tension because the military can't do anything against the invasion. It adds to the tension because now only the Avengers can fight the enemy.
Steal tension??? No one can steal tension. Tension is either added to a scene or taken away.
Screenwriting 101: anything that adds to the tension of a scene is a good thing. Let's look at one of the best endings of a movie Star Wars: A new hope. We have the tension of the death star bearing down on the moon of Yavin, We have most of the X-wing pilots getting wiped out by and the last resort in rookie Luke Skywalker. The tension is ramped up when everyone tries to blow up the Death Star and fails...

...now imagine in Avengers the military shows up and is stomped by the Chitauri. Tanks blown up, jets destroyed...a squad of soldiers cornered...Chitauri bear down on them....Cap saves the day and then they go into the whole Avengers assemble scene. Tension is ramped up and now when they council decides to use a nuke it makes sense because they used all their ideas.

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Old 04-15-2013, 08:32 PM   #146
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Saw this the other day with a friend, who did not like it one bit and I dislike it more and more I see it. My main complaints: 1. The biggest I have is that the story or lack thereof is ass. There is nothing here, now I know they need a simple story for this movie because of all the characters but this simple? eh. 2. The dialogue, its so corny and a lot of it is cringe worthy, this is a movie that isn't going to hold up well when it comes to that. 3. Lack of anything good for Thor and Captain America, its obvious that Whedon likes to write for Tony Stark because its easy and he probably wanted to be up to the challenge of making The Hulk good but he doesn't seem to care too much about Captain America and Thor because they do almost nothing in this movie. They should have some of the best action but yet when you get to the final battle who is it focused on? Iron Man, Hulk, and Black Widow. 4. Lack of tension in the final battle. There is absolutely none. Yeah I understand that they imply that the aliens kill lots of people but yet everytime we see the aliens get close to a human they miss every shot or for convenience of plot take them hostage for absolutely no reason. 5. Loki is a boring villain and does nothing for me. His plot is dumb, his intentions are dumb, and they completely destroy everything his character has worked for in 2 movies for just a stupid joke. 6. Needing Coulson's death to inspire them to work together. Really? The fate of the world isn't inspiration enough. Some heroes they are. 7. The final battle is nice candy but they never are really fighting together, the supposed amazing tracking shot had some awful awful cg and it takes me out immediately, not too mention the aliens are very very meh and decent cg but nothing special. Thus I thought it went on for too long. Plus the whole nuke thing was beyond moronic, I mean really just ugh stupid. I would have preferred a big showdown with a single bad guy or 2 going against the group.

I first gave this movie a 9/10 because I like everyone was head over heels for the last half hour but as I see this more and more ugh its nothing special. 7/10
the only character that gets an arc is Tony and its a false arc...it's mentioned that Tony would never sacrifice himself to win....yet that is what he did in Iron Man and Iron Man 2.

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Old 04-16-2013, 11:54 AM   #147
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it adds to the tension because the military can't do anything against the invasion. It adds to the tension because now only the Avengers can fight the enemy.
Steal tension??? No one can steal tension. Tension is either added to a scene or taken away.
Screenwriting 101: anything that adds to the tension of a scene is a good thing. Let's look at one of the best endings of a movie Star Wars: A new hope. We have the tension of the death star bearing down on the moon of Yavin, We have most of the X-wing pilots getting wiped out by and the last resort in rookie Luke Skywalker. The tension is ramped up when everyone tries to blow up the Death Star and fails...

...now imagine in Avengers the military shows up and is stomped by the Chitauri. Tanks blown up, jets destroyed...a squad of soldiers cornered...Chitauri bear down on them....Cap saves the day and then they go into the whole Avengers assemble scene. Tension is ramped up and now when they council decides to use a nuke it makes sense because they used all their ideas.
You mean like that scene showing civilians cornered, Chitauri about to blow them up and Cap jumps through the window and saves the day. Very original idea. Cars are blown up and buildings are demolished. We get it, that the invasion force is strong.

So the army gets to the scene before the Avengers, get stomped, but then six people show up, two of which have no actual powers, and save the world? The army would have looked pathetic and our heroes too unbeatable as they must be stronger than the army. Doing things this way also brings up the question, "Where were the Avengers while the army got to the scene?" The army naturally takes more time to get moving than the Avengers would and it was explained why they hadn't shown up yet with a quick line. Screenwriting 101 with Joss Whedon.

Tell Mr. Whedon he did his movie wrong. Talk to him about screenwriting 101. Why did he cut scenes showing the waitress and police officer during the battle? Why did they throw in the mention of the National Guard taking their sweet time getting to the fight? Because they slow down the movie and take the audience away from the fight people care about. No one cares about the military getting stomped. They are not the point of the film. You're not arguing against just me, but against the Joss Whedon who might know a but more about screenwriting than you.

Edit: Here's a thought. War Machine was not included in the Avengers film. My thoughts about that are that he would have too powerful for the Chitauri to do anything against. He would have just stood in the street blasting away at anything that got close. He would have been the most boring character because he is so perfectly suited to dealing with waves of lightly armored cannon fodder. That is exactly what the military would have been. The would have rolled down the street blasting anything that got close. Or you make the military so pathetic and dysfunctional they trip over themselves, becoming a joke and diverting attention to something dumb and pointless.

You don't need the military to get beat up, our heroes are supposed to take that role. Heroes are meant to get beat up and then overcome the odds. That is where tension comes from.


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Old 04-16-2013, 12:19 PM   #148
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the only character that gets an arc is Tony and its a false arc...it's mentioned that Tony would never sacrifice himself to win....yet that is what he did in Iron Man and Iron Man 2.
No, Cap claimed he wouldn't sacrifice himself for the good of others. He wouldn't lay down on the wire and let his friend crawl over him; all his fights in the first two films were personal ones where people were coming directly after him. He had never directly fought for the public good before.
But that's what he did at the end, and he showed he was willing to sacrifice himself to do it. So yeah, that's an arc.

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Old 04-16-2013, 01:52 PM   #149
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You mean like that scene showing civilians cornered, Chitauri about to blow them up and Cap jumps through the window and saves the day. Very original idea. Cars are blown up and buildings are demolished. We get it, that the invasion force is strong.

So the army gets to the scene before the Avengers, get stomped, but then six people show up, two of which have no actual powers, and save the world? The army would have looked pathetic and our heroes too unbeatable as they must be stronger than the army. Doing things this way also brings up the question, "Where were the Avengers while the army got to the scene?" The army naturally takes more time to get moving than the Avengers would and it was explained why they hadn't shown up yet with a quick line. Screenwriting 101 with Joss Whedon.

Tell Mr. Whedon he did his movie wrong. Talk to him about screenwriting 101. Why did he cut scenes showing the waitress and police officer during the battle? Why did they throw in the mention of the National Guard taking their sweet time getting to the fight? Because they slow down the movie and take the audience away from the fight people care about. No one cares about the military getting stomped. They are not the point of the film. You're not arguing against just me, but against the Joss Whedon who might know a but more about screenwriting than you.

Edit: Here's a thought. War Machine was not included in the Avengers film. My thoughts about that are that he would have too powerful for the Chitauri to do anything against. He would have just stood in the street blasting away at anything that got close. He would have been the most boring character because he is so perfectly suited to dealing with waves of lightly armored cannon fodder. That is exactly what the military would have been. The would have rolled down the street blasting anything that got close. Or you make the military so pathetic and dysfunctional they trip over themselves, becoming a joke and diverting attention to something dumb and pointless.

You don't need the military to get beat up, our heroes are supposed to take that role. Heroes are meant to get beat up and then overcome the odds. That is where tension comes from.
Yes IMO he did it wrong...and plenty of people in this thread have mentioned the same thing. Thats why a lot of people have said there was no tension in the climax. However I am going to end this conversation because from the few posts you have made I realize that you don't really know what you are talking about.

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Old 04-17-2013, 04:46 PM   #150
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Yes IMO he did it wrong...and plenty of people in this thread have mentioned the same thing. Thats why a lot of people have said there was no tension in the climax. However I am going to end this conversation because from the few posts you have made I realize that you don't really know what you are talking about.

Did that little jab at me make you feel better? It's ok. You can think whatever you want, just remember other people have opinions of you too

Just because a handful of people on an internet forum complain about the same thing does not make it the right decision. I would love to ask Mr. Whedon his thoughts on including the military.

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