The Falcon

[Dark Raven]

Hopefully this is more "Falcon Begins" and when he goes through a personal journey, by the end of the movie he's in a place where he feels he wants a more colourful suit and to be a "real" superhero.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

He could just as easily be another War Machine. Personally I would hope they have more high profile names like Ant-man, Wasp and Black Panther for Avengers 2 than Falcon.

War Machine *should* have gotten his Avengers Card, but there's a difference between WM's comic-book connection to the team and Falcon's. WM was an on-again/off-again member of the Westies, and rarely appeared in an Avengers book proper. Falcon, on the other hand, was a full-fledged member of the Main Branch and a regular fixture at The Mansion. He has more cache with the Avengers than War Machine did.

Plus, Falcon has been played up as an important Avenger --- albeit a "token black" role for the most part, for now --- in recent pseudo-Avenger fare like the new Avengers cartoon and Superhero Squad. Marvel is definitely "grooming" him for a spot on the movie roster.

[The Infernal]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

War Machine *should* have gotten his Avengers Card

I disagree. The world did not collapse in on itself like some fans would have us believe prior to the Avengers coming out. Few people actually seemed to care beforehand and I didn't see many being bothered by it afterwords.

Personally I think Falcon is similar to War Machine because he is not A list and is often seen as more of a sidekick. That and you've still to introduce founding members from the comic and other bigger name Avengers makes me think that Falcon should be bumped down the list for recruitment.

Not every superhero is going to turn up in Avengers because then the team would be too large for one movie to cope with. I think people like WM and Falcon should sit them out until the bigger names get their turn.

[Dark Raven]

When Cap and Falcon were together in Cap's book, the combination of their colours (red, white and blue, and red and white) made them look iconic. I don't see them looking quite the same with Cap in mostly blue and Falcon in generic black. It just looks like Cap is working with any other SHIELD agent.

[The Infernal]

Originally Posted by Dark Raven

When Cap and Falcon were together in Cap's book, the combination of their colours (red, white and blue, and red and white) made them look iconic. I don't see them looking quite the same with Cap in mostly blue and Falcon in generic black. It just looks like Cap is working with any other SHIELD agent.

...any other shield agent with wings and two submachine guns.

[fixxxer]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

I disagree. The world did not collapse in on itself like some fans would have us believe prior to the Avengers coming out. Few people actually seemed to care beforehand and I didn't see many being bothered by it afterwords.

Personally I think Falcon is similar to War Machine because he is not A list and is often seen as more of a sidekick. That and you've still to introduce founding members from the comic and other bigger name Avengers makes me think that Falcon should be bumped down the list for recruitment.

Not every superhero is going to turn up in Avengers because then the team would be too large for one movie to cope with. I think people like WM and Falcon should sit them out until the bigger names get their turn.

Comic book logic aside, War Machine *should* have been part of the Avengers in, um, The Avengers.

In the MCU, the Avengers are not a members-only club, but essentially a group of extremely skilled and/or powerful human/not-so-human beings that came together in order to, in Heimdall's words, cancel the apocalypse.

If War Machine was present and available, instead of being on a mission in Asia, wouldn't logic dictate that he would have suited up during the Battle of NY? It's not like they couldn't have used the firepower of another Iron Man, albeit in a slightly less advanced suit.

[The Infernal]

I think you're over thinking it. It's still just a story at the end of the day. One that can only handle so many characters and a derivative superhero probably isn't the best addition to the team. War Machine could busy somewhere else or whatever they give in a tie in comic or not. Not every hero needs to be present in one location.

Again, I didn't see any major critique of the film not featuring WM and the story didn't collapse in on itself because of it. Clearly WM wasn't needed and it's not as big of a deal to not have explained that as a couple of fans on a message board might have you believe.

Logic would dictate that WM would have done something if he were present. However, he wasn't because he didn't feature in the film. The comic is a nice tie-in for fans and answers some questions some may have, but it's not exactly necessary when it comes down to it.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

I disagree. The world did not collapse in on itself like some fans would have us believe prior to the Avengers coming out. Few people actually seemed to care beforehand and I didn't see many being bothered by it afterwords.

Personally I think Falcon is similar to War Machine because he is not A list and is often seen as more of a sidekick. That and you've still to introduce founding members from the comic and other bigger name Avengers makes me think that Falcon should be bumped down the list for recruitment.

Not every superhero is going to turn up in Avengers because then the team would be too large for one movie to cope with. I think people like WM and Falcon should sit them out until the bigger names get their turn.

They're not going to introduce Avengers into the MCU based on the order of the Founders; that much is clear by now. And they're not going to introduce Avengers into the MCU based on how important or iconic they are to the Avengers comics. As a *very* dedicated Avengers comic fan since 1974, I'd like to see them go either (or both) routes as well; but realistically, that's not gonna happen.

Instead, I think Marvel/Disney is going to look at the opportunity for diversity here, and expanding to new markets -- er, audiences. The world is still waiting for a really good black superhero --- box office success of Hancock and the Blade trilogy prove that --- and Avengers is the perfect opportunity for Marvel to capitalize on that. Neither War Machine nor Falcon gained a huge fanbase in comicdom (let's be honest here --- comic book fandom's demographic has always been overwhelmingly young, white and male), but the movies are an entirely different story. In just five short years, Marvel Studios has opened doors for black actors and audiences with Sam Jackson, Terrence Howard/Don Cheadle, Idris Elba, Derek Luke, Damion Poitier, Triple A, Aldis Hodge, and Zoe Saldana (still unconfirmed, but widely reported); and there's still a good chance that we might soon see more black heroes in Marvel films with Luke Cage, Black Panther, Misty Knight, and the return of Blade.

I want to see other key comic-book Avengers make the roster, too, but in terms of box office appeal, it makes more financial sense to expand your core audience to minorities and females, so you don't get stuck in the YWM stereotype demographic that comics has been guilty of for half a century.

[DrCosmic]

The more they up the stakes, the sillier it's going to look like if One Guy is always busy and just never there. It'll become a running gag, fodder for a RobotChicken sketch or something.

[The Infernal]

Black Panther is already a better candidate and it's not because we need a black Avenger. He's a character that is a well known Avenger and is strong enough to carry his own ongoing titles and cartoon as well as being one of more featured Avengers on Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Fans are already clamouring for a Black Panther film and appearance in the Avengers sequel. I just don't see that with Falcon so much.

I'm not for the argument of putting WM or Falcon in A2 because they're black actors who are already cast in parts. I'm not a big fan of positive discrimination. Marvel could end up adding Falcon to A2, but it won't be because they need another black face to make up the numbers.

Also, while Avengers may not have went with all of the founding members, there is an Ant-man film set for the phase two (which was probably why they didn't go with him). I'd be very surprised to not see him in a second Avengers film. I don't know about Wasp since I'm not aware if she's even in that film or not (though I doubt it would be a big problem to introduce her in A2).

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

Also, while Avengers may not have went with all of the founding members, there is an Ant-man film set for the phase two (which was probably why they didn't go with him). I'd be very surprised to not see him in a second Avengers film. I don't know about Wasp since I'm not aware if she's even in that film or not (though I doubt it would be a big problem to introduce her in A2).

Black Widow and Hawkeye definitely weren't founders, and yet they were included.

Marvel Studios never had any intention of remaining faithful to the actual order Avengers entered the roster. Or even of their actual status as Avenger (i.e., Hulk, the "Avenger" who was never anything more than a 2-issue honorary Avenger in the comics).

[Hawkingbird]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

He could just as easily be another War Machine. Personally I would hope they have more high profile names like Ant-man, Wasp and Black Panther for Avengers 2 than Falcon.

I think the fact that he's on the Avengers team in the upcoming cartoon kind of hints that he will be in it.

[Quasimod0]

Black panther, wasp, and hank pym are musts over falcon for me

[The Infernal]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Black Widow and Hawkeye definitely weren't founders, and yet they were included.

I don't recall saying only founders should be present. I pointed out Ant-man and Wasp as founding Avengers to sum up part of their importance as Avengers and I did say "and other big name Avengers" which refers to both them and other more high profile Avengers. I don't know why you're singling out one part of a sentence and ignoring the rest.

Originally Posted by Hawkingbird

I think the fact that he's on the Avengers team in the upcoming cartoon kind of hints that he will be in it.

Fair enough if that's what you believe. More power to you, but I personally am not about to take a cartoon show as an indicator of the casting decisions for their films.

Originally Posted by Quasimod0

Black panther, wasp, and hank pym are musts over falcon for me

This is part of what I'm getting at. For the run up to and post Avengers I have seen a lot of people clamouring for the characters they feel are essential to the team. I don't see many people saying Falcon should be put before them.

[VulcanVader]

Falcon is not a must for TA2. They can "hide" him, exactly like they did with War Machine in The Avengers, and with Hawkeye in Cap 2.
But introducing Black Panther or any other fits well for me.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

I don't recall saying only founders should be present. I pointed out Ant-man and Wasp as founding Avengers to sum up part of their importance as Avengers and I did say "and other big name Avengers" which refers to both them and other more high profile Avengers. I don't know why you're singling out one part of a sentence and ignoring the rest.




Fair enough if that's what you believe. More power to you, but I personally am not about to take a cartoon show as an indicator of the casting decisions for their films.




This is part of what I'm getting at. For the run up to and post Avengers I have seen a lot of people clamouring for the characters they feel are essential to the team. I don't see many people saying Falcon should be put before them.

I didn't see a lot of people clamoring for Black Widow and Hawkeye to be put ahead of characters many consider to be more essential to the team, either; but again, Marvel Studios has a completely different idea of who's important to the Avengers and how the roster should evolve.

[fixxxer]

Who wouldn't want Pym (in whatever frickin' incarnation), Wasp or BP on the Avengers over Falcon? I don't think anyone (in this thread or otherwise) was arguing that.

The point is Falcon *can* be introduced in A2, which I would not be opposed to. Both from the perspective of adding diversity and expanding a roster to include Falcon's pretty cool powerset.

Ant-Man and Wasp will be introduced in Phase 3, and hopefully, BP will get a Phase 3 movie too. Introducing characters of the magnitude of Pym/BP into an Avengers film without a 'proper' solo introduction would be weak, IMO.

The order in which the characters added to the Avengers roster is irrelevant to me.

[BoredGuy]

Hell, I'd be down for all the side characters showing up during some climactic battle in Avengers 2

Throw in Falcon, War Machine, Winter Soldier, The Warriors Three and Sif all coming to the Avengers and the Guardians aid when they're in some deep doodoo

no explaining, not many lines, just show up and kick some ass

just imagine that mass of superheroes together on screen

[The Infernal]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

I didn't see a lot of people clamoring for Black Widow and Hawkeye to be put ahead of characters many consider to be more essential to the team, either; but again, Marvel Studios has a completely different idea of who's important to the Avengers and how the roster should evolve.

Well I'm not claiming to know what that is. I'm just saying there's a better case for other characters.

[BullMcGiveny]

It looks like movie Sam will be a member of the Air National Guard, rather than SHIELD.

[Ant-manic]

looks like it. but i could see SHIELD recruiting from the military, as well.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny

It looks like movie Sam will be a member of the Air National Guard, rather than SHIELD.

Yeah, that's why I always said Falcon --- Ultimate Falcon, anyway --- is military, not SHIELD.

Wonder why they chose the ANG instead of outright Air Force (or Army, Navy, or Marines, for that matter)....to make sure Sam and Rhodey aren't *too* much alike...?

[Webfoot Hero]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Yeah, that's why I always said Falcon --- Ultimate Falcon, anyway --- is military, not SHIELD.

Wonder why they chose the ANG instead of outright Air Force (or Army, Navy, or Marines, for that matter)....to make sure Sam and Rhodey aren't *too* much alike...?

I'd say so. Also, it would allow him to be a scientist when not on active duty in the ANG, which could explain his wings and flight capabilities.

[BullMcGiveny]

What if Sam was among the National Guardsmen who showed up to fight the Chitauri, and that's how he met Steve?

[VulcanVader]

It's gonna be cool finding out how Steve, who works for S.H.I.E.L.D, ends up fighting alongside Sam, who works for the National Guard...