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Old 04-11-2013, 08:50 AM   #476
Midnight Black
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

It was somewhat a cliffhanger and somewhat not...I see both points. Not a cliffhanger as in the crisis of the reach had come to a climax and no one was left with an unresolved ending...well maybe Wally, but that's controversial. However, could be considered a cliffhanger if you think that Vandal and the Light's story/presence was just as important, though arguably secondary this season.

IMO it was a cliffhanger, because the real threat and plan was the Light and Savage's as they obviously had the upper hand the whole time. I mean Darkseid and planet Apokolips vs. the Reach??? No contest...especially now with war world, despero and mongul.

Come on meeting...give us some good news!!!!

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Old 04-11-2013, 11:47 AM   #477
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

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It was a cliffhanger Dread! No two ways about it! And it's tearing me apart! D:<

But in other news, today is the day.
WB's meeting with SMGO or whoever. I don't have high hopes for this being successful, but it's the best chance we've got. Petitions don't and won't do crap.
Very true. I really wish The Spectacular Spider-Man had come around the time all this fan support for shows was available. It probably wouldn't have done much, considering the legal rights, but the extra attention would have been nice.

The most realistic option for the show, as well as GL:TAS, are DTVs, if they're moving away from comic adaptations. Though YJ could get away with it more due it being a JL-related show, which are one of the three types of movies WB is willing to do in animation right now.

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I can say the biggest difference between this show [YOUNG JUSTICE] and "ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN" is showcased in one detail; this show expects their audience to know who H.G. Welles is, while "USM" assumes kids have never done anything but play video games in their room or watch MTV.
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Old 04-11-2013, 12:05 PM   #478
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

I think if they knew they would be ending the show everything about the last episode would have still worked perfectly except the death of Wally. I don't think you end it with such a down note. Even if Wally still died (which I don't think he would have) it would have been portrayed as more uplifting, he saved the world and focussed on that instead of everyone like Nightwing and Artimis saying they had to get away for a while because his death really upset them. They wouldn't have ended it on main characters being sad. Plus in the beginning of the season didn't one of the Light meet with a big Darksied looking shadow? So maybe they had planned this from the beginning, for Darksied to be the next season's story.
Anyway, it was a sad last episode but still worked, the fight goes on, there are still threats out there.
Just wish they hadn't ended it with Nightwing leaving the group, Artimis sad, Wally dead, and barely focusing on Superboy or Miss Martian in the last episode. If you look at the last episode of Justice League that is a more "we knew the end was coming) last episode.

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Old 04-11-2013, 04:25 PM   #479
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

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I think if they knew they would be ending the show everything about the last episode would have still worked perfectly except the death of Wally. I don't think you end it with such a down note. Even if Wally still died (which I don't think he would have) it would have been portrayed as more uplifting, he saved the world and focussed on that instead of everyone like Nightwing and Artimis saying they had to get away for a while because his death really upset them. They wouldn't have ended it on main characters being sad. Plus in the beginning of the season didn't one of the Light meet with a big Darksied looking shadow? So maybe they had planned this from the beginning, for Darksied to be the next season's story.
Anyway, it was a sad last episode but still worked, the fight goes on, there are still threats out there.
Just wish they hadn't ended it with Nightwing leaving the group, Artimis sad, Wally dead, and barely focusing on Superboy or Miss Martian in the last episode. If you look at the last episode of Justice League that is a more "we knew the end was coming) last episode.
Not every ending has to be a happy ending. Even Lord of the Rings ended with all the characters changed, in some way.

I honestly saw it as bittersweet. Sure, Wally is dead and Savage is stepping up his alliance with Darkseid, but the Team and the Justice League stopped the Reach invasion for good, saved the world, and the young heroes finally got the respect they wanted alongside the JL since the beginning of the show.

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I can say the biggest difference between this show [YOUNG JUSTICE] and "ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN" is showcased in one detail; this show expects their audience to know who H.G. Welles is, while "USM" assumes kids have never done anything but play video games in their room or watch MTV.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:27 PM   #480
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

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I think if they knew they would be ending the show everything about the last episode would have still worked perfectly except the death of Wally. I don't think you end it with such a down note. Even if Wally still died (which I don't think he would have) it would have been portrayed as more uplifting, he saved the world and focussed on that instead of everyone like Nightwing and Artimis saying they had to get away for a while because his death really upset them. They wouldn't have ended it on main characters being sad. Plus in the beginning of the season didn't one of the Light meet with a big Darksied looking shadow? So maybe they had planned this from the beginning, for Darksied to be the next season's story.
Anyway, it was a sad last episode but still worked, the fight goes on, there are still threats out there.
Just wish they hadn't ended it with Nightwing leaving the group, Artimis sad, Wally dead, and barely focusing on Superboy or Miss Martian in the last episode. If you look at the last episode of Justice League that is a more "we knew the end was coming) last episode.
Pretty sure it was Black Beetle but you may be right. Darkseid was being teased since the episode with the Forever People and Desaad. Lus, some of Queen Bee's soldiers had Apokoliptic weapons. I think Monsieur Mallah had one as well.

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Old 04-11-2013, 05:27 PM   #481
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

Wait wait wait, what damn meeting?!?! Just seen a facebook post about one. What's going on? Haven't been coming around this thread much because it's just.... Too damn depressing lol

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:15 PM   #482
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Wait wait wait, what damn meeting?!?! Just seen a facebook post about one. What's going on? Haven't been coming around this thread much because it's just.... Too damn depressing lol
http://www.comic book movie.com/fansites/GraphicCity/news/?a=76474

On the SMGO website, they lay out a five step process to how they bring cancelled shows back to production. By the looks of it, we are on the last leg of the second step which is "Vote". YJ got enough votes so they will be making/made a presentation to WB in order to lay out a plan to crowdfund the show. Even if they say yes, I doubt it'll go through. The costs to reassemble the original production crew AND cast AND artists and all that jazz would be monumental. Many fans are of an age where either they are too young to work or they are too young to have a real job and are forced to work under minimum wage employment (me ). And those who can afford it probably don't want to blow that much money on it. It sucks, but it's good to see that the show had enough supporters to bring this endeavor this far.

EDIT: Spaced out "Comic book movie" since it kept turning the url to stars. But even more disappointing is that the link featured in the article for smgo's website no longer exists meaning that they either took it down or moved it. In any case that worries me a bit :/


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Old 04-11-2013, 06:46 PM   #483
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

What I meant about it ending on a sad note is that if they knew their show was ending I don't think they would have killed off Wally and had characters react so sad and leave it that way. It still works as a last episode, but I think if they had known they might have killed off someone like Barry instead and had Wally become the new Flash and Impulse become the new Kid Flash. Still would have been sad, just less sad because Barry wasn't a main character like Wally. It did give them the respect they were wanting, but I think it would have had a more optimistic feel, and less of a downer. Like instead of Nightwing just needed to leave for a while because Wally's death hit him hard it might have had Nightwing leaving for a more optimistic reason like becoming the New Batman or maybe becoming the protector of Bludhaven. They would have given a more optimistic reason I think, than him just leaving to be alone because he is upset. Ending the show with Nightwing being sad about Wally. Like in the Justice League Unlimited show Flash fell into the speed force but was pulled out (they thought that was their last show I think) so I think they would have done something similar. Maybe even hinted that Wally was still alive in the speed force somehow instead of ending with him dead.
Long story short, in my own opinion, they didn't know they were ending when this was made or most of it was done before they got to edit it to be their last episode. But it still works as a last one, just not what I imagine they would actually want to do.
I could be wrong, just my opinion. But I hazard to guess that if they knew the ending would have been more uplifting.
(Actually my dream ending would be that Nightwing becomes the new Batman while Bruce takes a break for whatever reason given, Wally becomes the new Flash when Barry sacrifices himself to stop the Reach bomb, and Bart becomes the new Kid Flash. And a new batch of young heroes become the new Young Justice team, like new recruits joining. Maybe Kid Devil, Rose Wilson, etc.)

Didn't Greg Wiseman make this show, and Spectacular Spider-Man? Both ending on cliffhanger sad notes, mostly Spider-Man, but Young Justice as well sort of.

Who was it that met in that episode? Where the figure was in the shadows and it could have been Black Beetle or Darksied? And what episode was that exactly? Also, was it Savage who met him or Luthor? Maybe I can find a screen grab of that and see, because I don't remember the silhouette looking like Black Beetle (with his scarab things jetting out of his back).


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Old 04-11-2013, 08:39 PM   #484
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What I meant about it ending on a sad note is that if they knew their show was ending I don't think they would have killed off Wally and had characters react so sad and leave it that way. It still works as a last episode, but I think if they had known they might have killed off someone like Barry instead and had Wally become the new Flash and Impulse become the new Kid Flash. Still would have been sad, just less sad because Barry wasn't a main character like Wally. It did give them the respect they were wanting, but I think it would have had a more optimistic feel, and less of a downer. Like instead of Nightwing just needed to leave for a while because Wally's death hit him hard it might have had Nightwing leaving for a more optimistic reason like becoming the New Batman or maybe becoming the protector of Bludhaven. They would have given a more optimistic reason I think, than him just leaving to be alone because he is upset. Ending the show with Nightwing being sad about Wally. Like in the Justice League Unlimited show Flash fell into the speed force but was pulled out (they thought that was their last show I think) so I think they would have done something similar. Maybe even hinted that Wally was still alive in the speed force somehow instead of ending with him dead.
Long story short, in my own opinion, they didn't know they were ending when this was made or most of it was done before they got to edit it to be their last episode. But it still works as a last one, just not what I imagine they would actually want to do.
I could be wrong, just my opinion. But I hazard to guess that if they knew the ending would have been more uplifting.
(Actually my dream ending would be that Nightwing becomes the new Batman while Bruce takes a break for whatever reason given, Wally becomes the new Flash when Barry sacrifices himself to stop the Reach bomb, and Bart becomes the new Kid Flash. And a new batch of young heroes become the new Young Justice team, like new recruits joining. Maybe Kid Devil, Rose Wilson, etc.)

Didn't Greg Wiseman make this show, and Spectacular Spider-Man? Both ending on cliffhanger sad notes, mostly Spider-Man, but Young Justice as well sort of.

Who was it that met in that episode? Where the figure was in the shadows and it could have been Black Beetle or Darksied? And what episode was that exactly? Also, was it Savage who met him or Luthor? Maybe I can find a screen grab of that and see, because I don't remember the silhouette looking like Black Beetle (with his scarab things jetting out of his back).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKMj2wQbN7g

1:55 and then 3:25. It was Black Beetle. But Darkseid was working with the Light all along for sure. They've been hinting at it almost since the beginning.

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Very true. I really wish The Spectacular Spider-Man had come around the time all this fan support for shows was available. It probably wouldn't have done much, considering the legal rights, but the extra attention would have been nice.

The most realistic option for the show, as well as GL:TAS, are DTVs, if they're moving away from comic adaptations. Though YJ could get away with it more due it being a JL-related show, which are one of the three types of movies WB is willing to do in animation right now.
I wholeheartedly agree with the DTV thing. The following for this show was enormous as well as the support for it after its cancellation. People WOULD buy the DVD if it meant a continuation of the story. A video game is one thing, but a movie is a whole 'nother ballgame. It would be in their interests from the way I see it but like we've said, it most likely won't happen.

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Old 04-11-2013, 11:01 PM   #485
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With all due respect, the Martian Manhunter to the best of my knowledge has never been attached to a bold tag line or motto such as "the greatest psychic on Mars!" or something of the sort. Thus, it isn't as big a deal if a student of his exceeds him in telepathic power - especially one of a different class of Martians like Megan is.
Your missing the point, if people are willing to overlook that, why can't they overlook that with Flash or anyone else? Oh yeah this BS DC comics lore line in The Flash "has to be the fastest man alive" or people will think he's been immasculated and there's NOTHING to him BEYOND THAT. Oh wait, DC treats the Speed Force in the comics the same way, yet on Earth 16 it means exactly goose egg and the world is still spinning.

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In comparison, Flash's tag line for over half a century was being "the fastest man alive", which has come to define the character and the franchise in a far more overt manner.


Don't take this the wrong way Dread, but your analysis on Flash is wrong on so many levels I scarcely know where to begin. Well okay how about with the start of it. That tag line "the fastest man alive" didn't come about as an absolute until shortly after The Speed Force was introduced during The Wally West era during the 90's. THAT is when DC started becoming paranoid about making sure EVERY Flash was faster and better than the last.

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After all, the Flash's main abilities involve running a lot, and so on.
And yet The Green Lantern's only power comes from a ring, yet there's a whole army of them that do the same things as the others. Why does the Flash have to be the only exception to this rule? Well I know why Barry Allen does these days, because the character is so boring that if others show up with his power it would just expose his faults as a character. Dan Didio can't have that.

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You also have to remember, every Flash in comic book form HAS been "the fastest man alive". Jay Garrick was the first and had no competition.
Again your wrong on this front, except for Jay, but they didn't really care about that back then. Until the speed force came about, a case could be made about whether Superman was faster than The Flash. What, you think those comparisons from comic book geeks about who was faster came out of thin air?

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Barry Allen was clearly faster than Kid-Flash until his death.
No, Wally when he was first introduced as Kid Flash in the comics was on par with Barry's speed until Barry's death (just like Impulse's speed is on par with Barry's in Earth 16 continuity), at least there wasn't anything finite to prove one was faster than the other. His speed wasn't slowed down to the speed of sound UNTIL he got blasted by the anti-monitor. Ironically his SLOWER era is my favorite era of his as The Flash.

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And by the time Impulse arrived in the 90's, Wally had become the Flash and exceeded his own speed limitations (albeit with artificial boosts such as the Speed Force and convenient Anti-Monitor energies), becoming just as fast if not faster than Barry.
But there were still things Bart was able to do that Wally hadn't mastered yet, like vibrating his molecules. Though I don't think Bart viewed that as a blessing at the time.

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there really was no way for Wally to catch up - especially as in this universe, Bart came a lot sooner.
You act as if he needs to, OR that there isn't more than one way to the top.

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Wally was smarter (and probably stronger) than Bart, but a Flash who can't live up to that tagline and is outrun by his sidekick doesn't work.
Says who? Is their some law in the geneva convention or somewhere that SAYS SO? This sort of paranoia reminds me of Timm's comments on JL's Starcrossed commentary, "When Hro Talek broke off the Green Lantern ring, a bunch of DC/Green Lantern fans came up and said, "HUHHHHHHH, YOU CAN'T cut the GL ring in half.", and I'm like, Says who?, "It's in DC Comics lore, the GL ring can't be cut in half.", and I'm like well I don't care."

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I always thought the Speed Force worked as an easy explanation for how the Flash could defy physics with some of his feats and exceed the sorts of things that Marvel's Quicksilver was limited to. Admittedly, as with most story mechanics, it got abused and overused.
Personally I'm in the same camp as GW in that the speed force just opens up a can of worms that's totally unnecessary. Why isn't there a strength force? How come no one in the future could harness/master the speed force? Why bother with the laboratory accidents if the speed force simply makes it possible to be a speedster? Are those kinds of questions worth all the trouble of having a speed force?

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Naturally we could debate the strength of hypothetical plot details that the show didn't take or was steering nowhere near forever. Still, there is a difference between a major starring character LEAVING after a crisis versus dying to stop it. M'Gann was willing to use her psychic powers to influence a lover and as a jackhammer against enemies, but having her mind-trick the entire team is quite a step.
Where did I say all of them?

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Weisman stated several times that not only was there no "Speed Force" in Earth-16, but that he viewed it negatively as a concept in general.
Actually he said that if fans want to believe that it's there but nobody has discovered it that's fine. But I don't think it means he would ever use it.

Quote:
Thus, any speculation that it was going to arrive in the show for another season I consider a bit like wishful thinking more than accurate prediction.
You act as if the speed force is the only option.

Quote:
I don't genuinely believe that Weisman would have had such an event happen if he planned to make it moot later on down the road.
That depends, the aftermath wouldn't be moot, and if Wally ended up like on Apokolips where he would know of what's happening then something positive comes out of it. The only thing lost is the emotional feel "at the time", but lets be honest, the emtional feel doesn't stay the same all the time when you go back and watch things like "Evil Aqualad" in Alienated, or all of Clone Roy in season 1 in context.

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Seeing Artemis without Wally would have been different, as she was attached to him virtually from the get go; the difference is despite that, she always got her own character arc every season distinct from him
The second season you'd be right, HOWEVER the way Greg describes her in her first season arc sort of proves otherwise.

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Unless Weisman made her a nun afterward in grief (which seems unlikely), while she would have mourned Wally, eventually she would have moved on and dated someone else, and I don't think fans would have been very forgiving (ironically, as they ignore characters like Batman or Hawkeye or Spider-Man who date around).
The thing that makes Wally different in this case is that he was the person who lightened up her life the most (In turn she got him to be more serious, they brought out the best in each other IMO). Given all the crap she had to put up with UNTIL he came into her life, I would think him not being around WOULD REALLY mess with her psychologically by season 3. I think we would've seen her not with the team since Wally was a constant there from day 1 and seeing the kid flash costume would make it harder IMO.

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I just feel it is a shame that such a thing defined him
See I never understood how people think that THAT one thing defined him, I certainly don't. By that same token Dick not wanting to be "The Batman" defines him, but nobody EVER makes that claim.

I think Wally was defined by many things beyond his relationship with Artemis. Such as his insecurities with Barry, his friendship with Dick, he was funny, a science prodigy, a smartass, stubborn, impulsively reckless, someone who was constantly learning there were things beyond his understanding, learned what really defines being a hero, and so on.

But I guess people just love being simplistic and love to take the easy way out and don't like to scratch the surface.


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Old 04-11-2013, 11:10 PM   #486
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

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It was a cliffhanger Dread! No two ways about it! And it's tearing me apart! D:<

But in other news, today is the day.
WB's meeting with SMGO or whoever. I don't have high hopes for this being successful, but it's the best chance we've got. Petitions don't and won't do crap.
I don't consider it a cliffhanger; none of the characters are in immediate harm, nor has the plot of the season been unresolved. There are some loose ends, but that isn't the same as a cliffhanger. The Reach were defeated, and the Light (after 2 seasons) were scattered. The team endured and the Justice League were saved by their efforts. It's simply that such a victory didn't come without a heavy price. But, even with those sacrifices came some boons - Blue Beetle and his scarab are truly one, and one can imagine Bart Allen taking being a hero in a more serious manner now. Sure, Vandal Savage is revealing his alliance with Darkseid, wheeling and dealing as the team regroups for new threats - "business as usual".

As for the meeting, I believe little until I see it. Now, if the video game and final DVD sell like gangbusters, maybe WB would budge.

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Not every ending has to be a happy ending. Even Lord of the Rings ended with all the characters changed, in some way.

I honestly saw it as bittersweet. Sure, Wally is dead and Savage is stepping up his alliance with Darkseid, but the Team and the Justice League stopped the Reach invasion for good, saved the world, and the young heroes finally got the respect they wanted alongside the JL since the beginning of the show.
You hit the nail on the head, and the comparison to "LOTR" is a good one. Tolkien had seen the horrors of war and knew the toil it had on people back when it was called "shell shock". Sure, the world is saved from Sauron and the "one ring". But it isn't a victory where everyone slaps hands and goes home. The burden of carrying the ring for so long made Frodo a shell of himself, and Sam had to evolve from being Frodo's sidekick to enduring no end of horrors. Not all of the "fellowship" survived. Even more minor characters like Merry and Pippin realize that now that they've left the shire and had all these adventures, they can never really fit in at home again.

Weisman has stated that his approach to storytelling a lot is a "never the end" mantra which is used in a lot of serial fiction. After all, Dr. Manhattan in "WATCHMEN" says, "Nothing EVER ends" and hell, even THAT story had some loose ends (i.e. the hint that the peace Ozymandius killed millions for won't last forever). But I also saw it as a bit of, "victory at a price". It's a different finale than that of "JLU" (where everyone runs down the stairs even after Metropolis is flattened and only Luthor paid any price) or even "A:EMH" (which is fun but doesn't touch on Surtur, the abandoned plot line). Not saying it is better (as that is in the eye of the beholder), but worthy and a different tract to take.

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Old 04-12-2013, 07:13 AM   #487
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No plots were unresolved? Tru the main running plor of the entire show! Sphere, Intergang, Apokoliptic weapons, Godfrey, Desaad, and the Forever People were all building to this reveal. Apokolips was very present and part of the mystery of the Light revolved around why its presence was here. And now they finally revealed that Darkseid indeed was behind the whole shebang but leave the intention and reasoning behind it wide open without explanation.

Boom. Cliffhanger.

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Old 04-17-2013, 07:37 PM   #488
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

I know hope is bleak for the continuation of this show, but has there been any news on the meeting they were having discussing potentially renewing YJ?

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:55 AM   #489
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

Does anyone know if there has been an announcement about when the second half of the invasion season will be released on DVD?

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Old 04-20-2013, 01:34 AM   #490
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

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I know hope is bleak for the continuation of this show, but has there been any news on the meeting they were having discussing potentially renewing YJ?
The meeting supposedly was to take place on April 11th. On the 12th, SMGO.tv and The Out Housers posted an update, which is essentially...nothing beyond a call to "wait and hope" per a quote from Alexandre Dumas.

http://www.theouthousers.com/index.p...ries-back.html

No good or bad confirmations, but really nothing in general.

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No plots were unresolved? Tru the main running plor of the entire show! Sphere, Intergang, Apokoliptic weapons, Godfrey, Desaad, and the Forever People were all building to this reveal. Apokolips was very present and part of the mystery of the Light revolved around why its presence was here. And now they finally revealed that Darkseid indeed was behind the whole shebang but leave the intention and reasoning behind it wide open without explanation.

Boom. Cliffhanger.
I do feel there's a difference between having unresolved plot threads and a full on cliffhanger. The finale confirmed the subplot that the Light had been in alliance since season one and I thought the "business as usual" line worked for that. The team was moving on past their losses to go on with their mission, as were the Light.

By that logic, "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes" ended on a cliffhanger because it didn't resolve the Surtur subplot. "X-Men Evolution" ended on a cliffhanger because it didn't resolve the Power-8 or Legion subplots.

In comparison, "Wolverine & The X-Men" did end on more of a cliffhanger. The producers were under the impression they were getting renewed and production had begun on Season 2 of that show (character models and about 8 episodes were scripted; some voice recording may have even started). Thus it was more abrupt. "Silver Surfer" and "Spider-Man Unlimited" both ended on cliffhangers. I didn't get that same sense from this finale. No, every loose end wasn't tied up, but I wasn't expecting it to be tied up. I did expect to see Darkseid, although I was worried he'd hog the last few episodes and push out the Reach. When I was convinced that wouldn't happen, I was as satisfied as I was going to be considering who they axed off.

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Does anyone know if there has been an announcement about when the second half of the invasion season will be released on DVD?
No announcement or Amazon pre-order page yet. I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't hear about the second half of the "Invasion" series until after "Legacy" hit video game shops.

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Old 04-20-2013, 12:24 PM   #491
Artistsean
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

I agree that it seems like some major plot ideas were left unresolved, just because they made Godfrey this major character who they reveal in the last seconds of the show to actually be Darkseid's Glorious Godfrey. Or maybe ended things with the world in less danger from the Light and Savage. It still all works as a last episode for the show, but it does seem like if they had planned to end the show completely they would have resolved things differently. Maybe revealed the same things but with different timing to let the audience understand that the story goes on in a much clearer and obvious way. Less ambiguity.
X-Men Evolution was a last episode for sure because they had Xavier see into the future, to let the audience know for sure that the stories go on. The X-Men grow and change. Colossus becomes an X-Man, Jean becomes the Dark Phoenix, Magneto joins the X-Men, life goes on.
Avengers sort of rushed to end things, they set up that in Thor's place Beta Ray Bill and Sif would be handling that problem.
But Wolverine and the X-Men clearly wasn't expecting to be canceled because they were setting up the whole Age of Apocalypse thing. You wouldn't end the show by saying we fixed the Sentinel problem but now the world is being controlled by Apocalypse and Cyclops is evil, not without showing the X-men are handling things and we can end the show knowing things will eventually be resolved.
But again, Young Justice's last episode still works as a last episode. I am just not sure it was planned for that.


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Old 04-20-2013, 12:31 PM   #492
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

If you could give this show a proper ending, a planned one, maybe a last season for them to wrap things up in advance, like 30 Rock did, what would you want to see them do?

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Old 04-21-2013, 12:19 AM   #493
Dread
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

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Originally Posted by Artistsean View Post
I agree that it seems like some major plot ideas were left unresolved, just because they made Godfrey this major character who they reveal in the last seconds of the show to actually be Darkseid's Glorious Godfrey. Or maybe ended things with the world in less danger from the Light and Savage. It still all works as a last episode for the show, but it does seem like if they had planned to end the show completely they would have resolved things differently. Maybe revealed the same things but with different timing to let the audience understand that the story goes on in a much clearer and obvious way. Less ambiguity.
X-Men Evolution was a last episode for sure because they had Xavier see into the future, to let the audience know for sure that the stories go on. The X-Men grow and change. Colossus becomes an X-Man, Jean becomes the Dark Phoenix, Magneto joins the X-Men, life goes on.
Avengers sort of rushed to end things, they set up that in Thor's place Beta Ray Bill and Sif would be handling that problem.
But Wolverine and the X-Men clearly wasn't expecting to be canceled because they were setting up the whole Age of Apocalypse thing. You wouldn't end the show by saying we fixed the Sentinel problem but now the world is being controlled by Apocalypse and Cyclops is evil, not without showing the X-men are handling things and we can end the show knowing things will eventually be resolved.
But again, Young Justice's last episode still works as a last episode. I am just not sure it was planned for that.
It was most assuredly not planned as a series finale, at least originally. That said, Weisman and Vietti were aware at the time of producing "ENDGAME" that no new episodes had been ordered by CN, so it was the last episode that they had been ordered to produce. Naturally they probably had some reasonable expectation of a third season, which naturally got less and less reasonable as time wore on and CN moved onto other projects. Thus, "ENDGAME" sows up the major plot of the second season (the threat of the Reach, which was rather decisively stopped, albeit at quite a cost) while leaving at least one major plot thread for a third season should it come. It didn't, alas.

While I'm here...

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Originally Posted by nygma619 View Post
Your missing the point, if people are willing to overlook that, why can't they overlook that with Flash or anyone else? Oh yeah this BS DC comics lore line in The Flash "has to be the fastest man alive" or people will think he's been immasculated and there's NOTHING to him BEYOND THAT. Oh wait, DC treats the Speed Force in the comics the same way, yet on Earth 16 it means exactly goose egg and the world is still spinning.
My point was that the Flash is different than Martian Manhunter or many heroes in that regard because such a tagline of "the fastest man alive" has been with the character for over half a century in a way that many other taglines weren't with other heroes.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rgTTDtBFF6...howcase4_c.jpg

Barry Allen's first appearance, 1956, the birth of the Silver Age, R.I.P. Carmine Infantino his co-creator. It's hard to simply shrug off a tagline which has been used to define the character for a longer period than the Fantastic Four have existed.

And it makes sense. Speed or being "fast" is really all the Flash has which is unique compared to other superheroes. He should be the fastest there is.

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That tag line "the fastest man alive" didn't come about as an absolute until shortly after The Speed Force was introduced during The Wally West era during the 90's. THAT is when DC started becoming paranoid about making sure EVERY Flash was faster and better than the last.
But you at least need to concede it has been there since 1956 and given the Flash's powers, plays a bigger role in the promotion of his series than some hyperbole used with most other superheroes.

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And yet The Green Lantern's only power comes from a ring, yet there's a whole army of them that do the same things as the others. Why does the Flash have to be the only exception to this rule? Well I know why Barry Allen does these days, because the character is so boring that if others show up with his power it would just expose his faults as a character. Dan Didio can't have that.
That's a poor counter argument to make with me because I have never been fond of the Green Lantern franchise. I usually find them a bit bland to be honest. I am fascinated why aliens who supposedly never had humans in their ranks before Hal chose as their intergalactic symbol an Earth based illumination device from the 19th century. I also find it borderline sexist that out of 5 Earth GL's, not one is a woman. I don't hate GL or anything, but I've never been fond of that franchise.

I do agree that Barry Allen is boring, as are a lot of characters from the Silver Age if not modernized.

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Again your wrong on this front, except for Jay, but they didn't really care about that back then. Until the speed force came about, a case could be made about whether Superman was faster than The Flash. What, you think those comparisons from comic book geeks about who was faster came out of thin air?
Comic book geeks debate any given subject for reasons ranging between pride and boredom. I mean, what are we doing here?

Yes, I know Flash and Superman had their races. I feel Flash should at least be allowed to be the best in something, so I'm with Weisman in that regard. Then again, Superman having a gazillion powers and being too perfect to challenge is among his flaws as a concept which can trip people up. That's another argument, though.

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No, Wally when he was first introduced as Kid Flash in the comics was on par with Barry's speed until Barry's death (just like Impulse's speed is on par with Barry's in Earth 16 continuity), at least there wasn't anything finite to prove one was faster than the other. His speed wasn't slowed down to the speed of sound UNTIL he got blasted by the anti-monitor. Ironically his SLOWER era is my favorite era of his as The Flash.
Over time, however, the comics claimed that because Wally was younger (as in, still growing physically) than Barry when he was empowered by a similar process, it soon had a negative effect on his body. By the mid-80's, Wally's sporadic retirements happened because his powers were slowly killing him when he used them (Darkwing Duck once had an episode akin to that). "Young Justice" didn't get into that at all, even when some theorized about it contrary to any evidence.

In "YJ", there was literally no reason given as to why Wally wasn't as fast or could never become as fast as Barry or Bart besides not being an Allen.

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You act as if he needs to, OR that there isn't more than one way to the top.
Greg Weisman wasn't a fan of major power level boosts and debates, nor did he tend to do such things without them being part of a story about the risks or consequences of them. Superboy groused about not being as powerful as Superman for a while, and jumped at the chance to get closer when offered by Luthor; but it had a downside.

Without the "speed force", which itself became an artificial power boost, there was no way for Wally to get faster, and that probably wasn't in Weisman's mind for him. He appreciated the character more for his humanity, which included being a superhero even if he wasn't as fast as the others.

Even comic history seems to concede that there's never been a Flash who was SLOWER than his kid sidekick.

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Says who? Is their some law in the geneva convention or somewhere that SAYS SO? This sort of paranoia reminds me of Timm's comments on JL's Starcrossed commentary, "When Hro Talek broke off the Green Lantern ring, a bunch of DC/Green Lantern fans came up and said, "HUHHHHHHH, YOU CAN'T cut the GL ring in half.", and I'm like, Says who?, "It's in DC Comics lore, the GL ring can't be cut in half.", and I'm like well I don't care."
That is a borderline hypocritical argument to latch on to. When a creator says such things after doing something one dislikes, it rarely is defended. After all, you yourself saw the finale as a betrayal of Wally's "destiny" of becoming the Flash himself.

Besides, if there is any superhero cartoon which should be used in the same sentence as "Geneva Convention", it's "ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN".

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Personally I'm in the same camp as GW in that the speed force just opens up a can of worms that's totally unnecessary. Why isn't there a strength force? How come no one in the future could harness/master the speed force? Why bother with the laboratory accidents if the speed force simply makes it possible to be a speedster? Are those kinds of questions worth all the trouble of having a speed force?
Again, I saw it as a handy explanation for why the Flash could defy laws of physics or gravity beyond simply suspending belief. Over time as many story mechanics tend to, it got stretched and warped to convenience once too often. But then again I watch a lot of anime where "chi" is used as fuel for almost everything.

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Actually he said that if fans want to believe that it's there but nobody has discovered it that's fine. But I don't think it means he would ever use it.
I doubt he'd ever use the "speed force".

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You act as if the speed force is the only option.
Beyond some other convenient power boost by a zap or chemical, there's really no other way. I suppose the series could have gone with a psychological reason like in the comics when Wally was still at Mach 1 long after Barry's death because he wasn't ready mentally to step out of his shadow. But even that's a somewhat contrived reason to justify a power boost, albeit less contrived than being zapped by convenient alien energy.

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That depends, the aftermath wouldn't be moot, and if Wally ended up like on Apokolips where he would know of what's happening then something positive comes out of it. The only thing lost is the emotional feel "at the time", but lets be honest, the emtional feel doesn't stay the same all the time when you go back and watch things like "Evil Aqualad" in Alienated, or all of Clone Roy in season 1 in context.
Why would Wally have wound up on Apokolips? The bomb which killed him was a Reach weapon, for heaven's sakes. The very notion of people who don't die but just wind up going to other dimensions just reminds me too much of "Spider-Man: The Animated Series" for comfort.

I was very pissed at the "Evil Aqualad" development when "ALIENATED" was new, and was glad that I was wrong and he wound up having his own arc. I am still relieved that despite some fake outs, he wasn't killed off or turned truly evil like too many black characters in superhero comics.

I never liked Roy Harper, clone or otherwise. Yet the show felt I needed two of him, each one angrier than the last.

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The second season you'd be right, HOWEVER the way Greg describes her in her first season arc sort of proves otherwise.
What Weisman intended and how I reacted from his work are not always equal. In Season 1, I usually felt that Wally was often getting the shorter end of the stick a lot, although others felt that Robin and/or Kaldur got considerably less focus. If true, Season 2 certainly made up for them in that regard. Nightwing appeared in nearly every episode in Season 2, as leader. Kaldur's arc was critical for the entire season.

If I am generous, Wally's arc in Season 1 became about priorities. Initially cocky considering his youth and pedigree (the latest in a line of Flashes), experiences with Kent Nelson and ultimately Artemis and Queen Perdita taught Wally about what was really important in life. Once he found that in Artemis, that mattered more to him than being a superhero hence when he retired in Season 2, he ONLY got back in action when something directly effected someone he loved (Barry in "FLASHPOINT" or Artemis in "SUMMIT" and "ENDGAME"). That would naturally beg the question of why he was nowhere in "BEFORE THE DAWN" since he was apparently Bart's mentor (a bit more told than shown, frankly), but that's something to take up with the producers.

If I am bitter, then Wally's entire arc in Season 1 was becoming a worthy boyfriend for Artemis, who had her own distinct arc branching away from her terrible family into who she wanted to be, and was clearly a more important character. Season 2 merely made his existence as a supporting character more transparent, which was probably a little counter-productive to what the producers wanted. In fearing they were overplaying their hand, they shifted Wally from leading figure (sort of) into less of a team member than Mal Duncan had become.

These days in this regard I lean more toward being generous than bitter, but it depends on the mood.

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The thing that makes Wally different in this case is that he was the person who lightened up her life the most (In turn she got him to be more serious, they brought out the best in each other IMO). Given all the crap she had to put up with UNTIL he came into her life, I would think him not being around WOULD REALLY mess with her psychologically by season 3. I think we would've seen her not with the team since Wally was a constant there from day 1 and seeing the kid flash costume would make it harder IMO.
Most certainly, but no matter what, Season 3 at least would have given her an arc to deal with all of that. I never fretted about Artemis getting notable screen time. I think a part of her would have liked Bart trying to honor the legacy and she might have become a mentor for him as well. It was a shame we didn't get to see more of her "partnership" with Wally, because that brief bit in France was fun. But, comics and the cartoons that adapt them apparently loath fun, stable relationships. They're not dramatic enough.

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See I never understood how people think that THAT one thing defined him, I certainly don't. By that same token Dick not wanting to be "The Batman" defines him, but nobody EVER makes that claim.

I think Wally was defined by many things beyond his relationship with Artemis. Such as his insecurities with Barry, his friendship with Dick, he was funny, a science prodigy, a smartass, stubborn, impulsively reckless, someone who was constantly learning there were things beyond his understanding, learned what really defines being a hero, and so on.

But I guess people just love being simplistic and love to take the easy way out and don't like to scratch the surface.
I wouldn't be offended if someone wanted to define Grayson in this show as "not wanting to be the Batman". I think that was often key to him. As Robin, he was initially wanting to become like Batman until "FAILSAFE" when becoming so cold stunned him. However, 5 years later as Nightwing running a very risky undercover op, he wound up becoming arguably even colder than Batman would have been at times. Yet the first chance he could to relinquish such pressure, he did, perhaps aware of what he was becoming. As far as simple definitions go, it is fascinating.

By definition I meant as a lasting legacy on the show as a whole, not in terms of character details. Sure, Wally was a detailed character with his own quirks. But in the grand scheme of the show as a whole, he existed to support Artemis, save a kid, and die to save the earth. He didn't have any singular arc that wasn't related back towards Artemis, whether becoming worthy of her or worrying about her or so on. Maybe had he done more in Season 2 it would have mitigated that, but the producers feared showing their hand. There's nothing wrong with being defined by attachment to another character per say - I just feel it was a shame we got to see the beginning and end of that relationship, when the middle was probably fun as hell.

Considering on Earth-16 there was no way for Wally to "catch up" with the show very bluntly connecting Bart to Barry as his next sidekick, there was nowhere for him to go beyond retirement or a noble death - and at least he got that. Clearly, it overshadowed everything else "ENDGAME" had to offer. Not even the squicky reunion of "Meganboy" distracted from it.

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Old 04-21-2013, 07:19 PM   #494
nygma619
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

Before my response to Dread, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and guess that season 3 would've had the team traveling to other planets. I don't think War World was mearly being used as a house warming gift for Darkseid by Savage. I think they planned to use it to conquer other planets in the name of Apokolips and/or Earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dread View Post
My point was that the Flash is different than Martian Manhunter or many heroes in that regard because such a tagline of "the fastest man alive" has been with the character for over half a century in a way that many other taglines weren't with other heroes.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rgTTDtBFF6...howcase4_c.jpg

Barry Allen's first appearance, 1956, the birth of the Silver Age, R.I.P. Carmine Infantino his co-creator. It's hard to simply shrug off a tagline which has been used to define the character for a longer period than the Fantastic Four have existed.

And it makes sense. Speed or being "fast" is really all the Flash has which is unique compared to other superheroes. He should be the fastest there is.

But you at least need to concede it has been there since 1956 and given the Flash's powers, plays a bigger role in the promotion of his series than some hyperbole used with most other superheroes.
Except that's EXACTLY what that tagline was until the 90's, hyperbole. Asking me to literally treat The Flash as "the fastest man alive" when his 1st side kick's speed was on par with his, as was Zoom's, AND a case could be made for whether Superman was faster or not (which in turn meant at the beginning of Wally's run you could deduce that Superman was faster than him) is absolutely silly.

If those three rival his speed he's not "the fastest man alive", but merely "one of the fastest men alive". Heck that argument holds weight even on Earth 16 when Barry's speed is on par with his grandson's.

The tagline "the fastest man alive" for most of it's existence has held as much weight as the tagline of Superman being "The Last Son of Krypton, just as long as you ignore his cousin, his clones, his dog, General Zod and other krypton criminals in the phantom zone, and that stupid frog."

The tagline has been around since then, sure. But your asking me to treat that tagline as a sacred cow, when DC couldn't be bothered to do that till AFTER the speed force was introduced.

This show survived ONE SACRED COW not being used, why can't they survive the OTHER ONE?

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That's a poor counter argument to make with me because I have never been fond of the Green Lantern franchise.
Correction, it's not so much a poor counter argument from me as it's more of a personal problem for you. Most Green Lantern fans don't really seem to care.

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I also find it borderline sexist that out of 5 Earth GL's, not one is a woman. I don't hate GL or anything, but I've never been fond of that franchise.
Apparently so did Giancarlo Volpe, as he mentioned planning on making Jade one of the Green Lanterns from Earth in season 2.

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Comic book geeks debate any given subject for reasons ranging between pride and boredom. I mean, what are we doing here?
The incentive to do that, has to be there first. Most people didn't give a crap about Artemis UNTIL the show GAVE US incentive to.

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Over time, however, the comics claimed that because Wally was younger (as in, still growing physically) than Barry when he was empowered by a similar process, it soon had a negative effect on his body. By the mid-80's, Wally's sporadic retirements happened because his powers were slowly killing him when he used them (Darkwing Duck once had an episode akin to that). "Young Justice" didn't get into that at all, even when some theorized about it contrary to any evidence.
That's nice and all, but just because his powers were killing him every time he used them, meant his top speed was slower than Barry's how?

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In "YJ", there was literally no reason given as to why Wally wasn't as fast or could never become as fast as Barry or Bart besides not being an Allen.
Sure there was, it was explained in the tie in comic: Jay's speed came from an accident that gave him his powers.

Barry's came from him recreating that accident under lab conditions, because it was controlled "the accident" turned out with better results.

Wally's came about through him TRYING to recreate that experiment in his parents garage. But he botched it, and ended up in the hospital over it. Eventually his speed ended up on par with Jay's but since it was botched, it came with the added effect of him having to eat a vast quantity of foods to maintain his metabolism.

Bart's was genetically inherited from Barry. Four different methods of gaining super speed.

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Without the "speed force", which itself became an artificial power boost, there was no way for Wally to get faster, and that probably wasn't in Weisman's mind for him. He appreciated the character more for his humanity, which included being a superhero even if he wasn't as fast as the others.
I'm gonna keep this argument right here in mind, and bring it up again a little further down.

Other than the fact that unless the show comes back we'll probably NEVER know if "The Flash" was ever considered in Greg and Brandon's vision.

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Even comic history seems to concede that there's never been a Flash who was SLOWER than his kid sidekick.
Impulse's first appearance would disagree with you. Besides, it's okay for the kid sidekick to be on par with him (thus invalidating that oh so holy, "fastest man alive moniker" but NOT faster? (As if THAT ALONE makes him more effective as a hero)

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That is a borderline hypocritical argument to latch on to. When a creator says such things after doing something one dislikes, it rarely is defended. After all, you yourself saw the finale as a betrayal of Wally's "destiny" of becoming the Flash himself.
Except the ring being cut wasn't somehow a betrayal to the core truth of who John Stewart is as a character. If the plan was to keep Wally dead and NOT become "The Flash" on a DC LEGACY SHOW. Then yes, I do think it's a betrayal of Wally West's history in DC comics.

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Again, I saw it as a handy explanation for why the Flash could defy laws of physics or gravity beyond simply suspending belief.
Greg and Brandon came up with a better and simpler one, their ability to do that came as a package deal from the lab experiments. Considering how many revamps DC has had, I'm shocked they didn't just do away with the speed force in one of them, and do what they did.

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Beyond some other convenient power boost by a zap or chemical, there's really no other way.
Like say, adding whatever elements were missing in Wally's botched experiment later on and him accidently stumbling upon them?

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Why would Wally have wound up on Apokolips? The bomb which killed him was a Reach weapon, for heaven's sakes.
Maybe not at first, but I seem to remember The Reach using something in the comics and it just teleported stuff to their planet instead of simply destroying it, when it looked like it was destroyed. Or maybe his body ends up on the astral plane. Or this is Greg and Brandon's take on him "outrunning death" by simply coming back. Heck maybe Dr. Fate's aura did something for him, or because he saved the helmet from Klarion that one time it would bail him out of a situation like this without us knowing. There's more than one non-speed force possibility. But without a pickup we'll never know.

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The very notion of people who don't die but just wind up going to other dimensions just reminds me too much of "Spider-Man: The Animated Series" for comfort.
Pffft, reminds me more of the speed force and how a speedster winds up there every tuesday that they get trapped in it.

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I was very pissed at the "Evil Aqualad" development when "ALIENATED" was new, and was glad that I was wrong and he wound up having his own arc. I am still relieved that despite some fake outs, he wasn't killed off or turned truly evil like too many black characters in superhero comics.
Evil black characters are bad (pun unavoidable)? Personally his arc still didn't do anything to make me find him interesting beneath the surface. Anytime I ask someone to tell me WHY they think Kaldur is cool. They tell me it's because he's a great fighter, he's zen like, his water tricks are cool, etc. None of it was because of what his character was like beneath that. They all found him cool for the same reasons as the jedi's in the star wars prequels. But I personally found them boring, lifeless, and soulless characters; and felt they came across like prepackaged products on what's cool instead of transcending that and defining cool. Kaldur's value as a character in my eyes is slightly above that but not by much.

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What Weisman intended and how I reacted from his work are not always equal. In Season 1, I usually felt that Wally was often getting the shorter end of the stick a lot, although others felt that Robin and/or Kaldur got considerably less focus. If true, Season 2 certainly made up for them in that regard. Nightwing appeared in nearly every episode in Season 2, as leader.
Really? There are some who feel Nightwing was reduced to simply planning and barking orders; because APPARENTLY that's not characterization in any form I guess. I'm not among them, just saying there ARE detractors out there.

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That would naturally beg the question of why he was nowhere in "BEFORE THE DAWN" since he was apparently Bart's mentor (a bit more told than shown, frankly), but that's something to take up with the producers.
That line about Wally being Bart's mentor can be taken as hearsay, due to Jamie prompting sour grapes, and throwing things out there WITHOUT knowing whether it's actually FACT. Same thing with Demona in Gargoyles, where fans took her words about how, "There are no gargoyles species left." in Hunter's Moon, Part 1." as a literal fact. It never occurred to them that MAYBE she was full of crap in what she was saying. Same as Tim's words about how, "Martian's love televison.", when Greg later stepped in and told people not to take that line seriously.

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Most certainly, but no matter what, Season 3 at least would have given her an arc to deal with all of that.
You know that as a sure bet, HOW?

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It was a shame we didn't get to see more of her "partnership" with Wally, because that brief bit in France was fun. But, comics and the cartoons that adapt them apparently loath fun, stable relationships. They're not dramatic enough.
More like they don't know how to write them. Even though with this show they have the perfect excuse in that they don't have to focus on it all the time, when there are other characters too.

The irony is that Spitfire ended up far more interesting than Supermartian (not to mention, had more fanfare), yet they didn't receive anywhere near the amount of screen time Supermartian did.

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By definition I meant as a lasting legacy on the show as a whole, not in terms of character details.
You make "lasting legacy" sound more like something you'd put on a resume, or a wikipedia page, more than anything else. There's LOTS of superheroes that sound interesting from a wikipedia entry in that sense, but then you read their comics and ask yourself "what is so appealing about this character?"

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He didn't have any singular arc that wasn't related back towards Artemis, whether becoming worthy of her or worrying about her or so on.
And Dick Grayson didn't have an arc that didn't relate back to Batman in some way. Why do people say Wally was somehow treated unfairly in this sense, and yet they seem to ignore Dick got similar treatment?

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Maybe had he done more in Season 2 it would have mitigated that, but the producers feared showing their hand.
I feel they dropped the ball with that 9-episode absence. If he appeared in something like Runaways it might've felt like they remembered he was there, and not just bringing him back when it's convenient. He could've had a subplot where he expresses frustration at not being able to do anything to help out, BECAUSE Dick wants him to play "mourning boyfriend" to everyone around him. The Red Volcano incident would give him the opportunity to be beneficial to helping others beyond that when Dick calls him because zeta tubes were down, Flash and Impulse had their hands full in Taipei, he knew Red Volcano, he was only 2 states over, and keeping the Amazo parts out of Red Volcano's hands was a big enough emergency to stop faking it because Dick had few options.

Wally could at least save the people at Star Labs, or stop a fire there. And gain some satisfaction at being able to help in ANY WAY he can. While Blue still defeats RV. We could see how Wally was coping with not being able to help and how it was affecting him. The theme of the show is "Secrets and Lies", so why not explore THAT ONE? Because Blue Beetle, and the Runaways were NOT interesting enough to carry that episode all on their own. Blue was interesting enough to carry a subplot on his own (Beneath), but he wasn't well defined enough for this, while Wally was.

I mean Greg wants us to assume that the same Wally that ran off to the north pole to help in any way he can in the finale, would simply be content to sit on the sidelines "playing a role", that doesn't guarantee Artemis gets home any sooner? I don't see that.

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Considering on Earth-16 there was no way for Wally to "catch up"
Your absolutely positive on this HOW?

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Old 04-21-2013, 11:45 PM   #495
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

Opened the floodgates here. What can I say, I like to type.

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Originally Posted by nygma619 View Post
Except that's EXACTLY what that tagline was until the 90's, hyperbole. Asking me to literally treat The Flash as "the fastest man alive" when his 1st side kick's speed was on par with his, as was Zoom's, AND a case could be made for whether Superman was faster or not (which in turn meant at the beginning of Wally's run you could deduce that Superman was faster than him) is absolutely silly.

If those three rival his speed he's not "the fastest man alive", but merely "one of the fastest men alive". Heck that argument holds weight even on Earth 16 when Barry's speed is on par with his grandson's.

The tagline "the fastest man alive" for most of it's existence has held as much weight as the tagline of Superman being "The Last Son of Krypton, just as long as you ignore his cousin, his clones, his dog, General Zod and other krypton criminals in the phantom zone, and that stupid frog."

The tagline has been around since then, sure. But your asking me to treat that tagline as a sacred cow, when DC couldn't be bothered to do that till AFTER the speed force was introduced.

This show survived ONE SACRED COW not being used, why can't they survive the OTHER ONE?
There were periods of time when DC wanted to adhere to Superman being the only Kryptonian - especially after 1986's "Crisis". That botched up Supergirl's origins for a while and a cheat was used that "alternate reality/time line" Kryptonians didn't count (nor did clones, especially as they usually were inferior to the original like Bizarro or Conner). Same as I am sure there were periods of time when DC wanted to hold the tagline literally to Flash.

One would expect Professor Zoom to rival Flash in speed; he's one of his arch enemies and that makes it dramatic. As for sidekicks, that's something I wasn't aware of, but there is a difference between a sidekick matching a mentor and beating them. Otherwise, why in the world are they a sidekick? Age? That may have flown before 1960's Marvel, but after that teenagers were then able to be their own superheroes either on a team or by themselves without needing a mentor. As for Superman, well, he's super at everything apparently.

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That's nice and all, but just because his powers were killing him every time he used them, meant his top speed was slower than Barry's how?
Having super powers that steadily kill you is a good reason to either not use them very often or not use them at their full potency. That was a weakness Barry Allen never had.

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Sure there was, it was explained in the tie in comic: Jay's speed came from an accident that gave him his powers.

Barry's came from him recreating that accident under lab conditions, because it was controlled "the accident" turned out with better results.

Wally's came about through him TRYING to recreate that experiment in his parents garage. But he botched it, and ended up in the hospital over it. Eventually his speed ended up on par with Jay's but since it was botched, it came with the added effect of him having to eat a vast quantity of foods to maintain his metabolism.

Bart's was genetically inherited from Barry. Four different methods of gaining super speed.
Now, that there is a perfectly fascinating and detailed chunk of the Flash legacy that by all rights SHOULD have been addressed and even, dare I say, detailed in an episode scene somewhere. Not tucked into the spare comic that only the diehards read. I have often felt the existence of the comic made it too easy to edit out material from the show because there was a failsafe. Often times, by sheer coincidence, this included quite a few interesting details about Kid-Flash. Having them turn up in the show would have helped him feel like his own character, not a character that in the end existed to support others (whether Artemis or Grayson, or Bart, etc.).

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Impulse's first appearance would disagree with you. Besides, it's okay for the kid sidekick to be on par with him (thus invalidating that oh so holy, "fastest man alive moniker" but NOT faster? (As if THAT ALONE makes him more effective as a hero)
I wasn't aware of the power levels of Impulse's first appearance (although I imagine it was done for dramatic effect). Admittedly, diving into this debate with you is a bit foolish since my knowledge of DC lore isn't anywhere near my Marvel lore. I've above a novice (I feel), but I'm not a 12th level intellect.

The problem with a sidekick being more powerful than the titular adult hero is that it begs the question as to why he's even a sidekick at all. Lack of experience is a short term reason; eventually the sidekick would learn enough that they wouldn't need the training wheels anymore and need to branch out. Admittedly, you could argue in the comics Wally himself did that once he started appearing less in THE FLASH and more in TEEN TITANS/NEW TEEN TITANS etc.

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Except the ring being cut wasn't somehow a betrayal to the core truth of who John Stewart is as a character. If the plan was to keep Wally dead and NOT become "The Flash" on a DC LEGACY SHOW. Then yes, I do think it's a betrayal of Wally West's history in DC comics.
I considered it hypocritical to latch onto a TV producer going, essentially, "It goes against what the comic says? I don't care, I'm doing it anyway". That's an argument which is fine when it's a move you agree with, and is scorned when it's a move one disagrees with. After all, I don't think Greg Weisman and/or Brandon Vietti consider it part of Wally's "core truth" to become the Flash. There are other aspects to his character they maintained and embellished, but that path to Flashdom I don't think they believed was absolute. Obviously, you'd disagree.

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Greg and Brandon came up with a better and simpler one, their ability to do that came as a package deal from the lab experiments. Considering how many revamps DC has had, I'm shocked they didn't just do away with the speed force in one of them, and do what they did.
Again, I wish some episode in Season 1 had the room to state this. Beyond some random lines in "DENIAL", Wally's origin as well as the origin of the Flashes was a mystery if you just watched the TV show alone.

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Like say, adding whatever elements were missing in Wally's botched experiment later on and him accidently stumbling upon them?
That's horribly risky. He could turn out looking like Swamp-Thing.

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Maybe not at first, but I seem to remember The Reach using something in the comics and it just teleported stuff to their planet instead of simply destroying it, when it looked like it was destroyed. Or maybe his body ends up on the astral plane. Or this is Greg and Brandon's take on him "outrunning death" by simply coming back. Heck maybe Dr. Fate's aura did something for him, or because he saved the helmet from Klarion that one time it would bail him out of a situation like this without us knowing. There's more than one non-speed force possibility. But without a pickup we'll never know.
Those are all varying degrees of far fetched, even in terms of the show. My gut says that death was supposed to stick. It is rather hard to come back from electro-magnetic energy vaporizing you. I don't think "ENDGAME" would have ended that way if the producers didn't want it to be real and stick.

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Pffft, reminds me more of the speed force and how a speedster winds up there every tuesday that they get trapped in it.
I never said I agreed with what the "speed force" became. I liked it as an explanation for the Flash's frequent physics defying feats. But once writers started using it to turn death into a stunt or attach no end of other superpowers onto characters, that's when it went from being a clever plot detail to being a cop out engine.

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Evil black characters are bad (pun unavoidable)? Personally his arc still didn't do anything to make me find him interesting beneath the surface. Anytime I ask someone to tell me WHY they think Kaldur is cool. They tell me it's because he's a great fighter, he's zen like, his water tricks are cool, etc. None of it was because of what his character was like beneath that. They all found him cool for the same reasons as the jedi's in the star wars prequels. But I personally found them boring, lifeless, and soulless characters; and felt they came across like prepackaged products on what's cool instead of transcending that and defining cool. Kaldur's value as a character in my eyes is slightly above that but not by much.
Aqualad's stoic, which is often a trait common in leaders. Leonardo, Cyclops, even Optimus Prime have all been written as such at varying intervals. Naturally, execution is everything; the Leonardo of the 1987 era cartoon is dull, whereas the one from the 2003 show was captivating. The Cyclops of the 90's X-Men cartoon was a bit stiff, but the younger version from "X-Men Evolution" was far more fleshed out (and frankly, far less perfect; he messed up a lot and frequently needed to be bailed out in missions, usually by Rogue). His arc in season 2 involved going not just the mission, but getting close to his biological father. As ruthless as Black Manta was, he was loyal to Kaldur until the end because he loved him - even when it was revealed that Kaldur'd betrayed the Light, Manta would have defended him from them (albeit even if to later "beat lessons" into him). Kaldur, who is all about honor and doing what is right, was forced to not merely just pretend to be evil - he had to legitimately betray a father who loved him (who happened to be genuinely corrupt). The fact that he kicked butt and actually got to defeat named opponents when it counted was just icing on the cake for him.

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Really? There are some who feel Nightwing was reduced to simply planning and barking orders; because APPARENTLY that's not characterization in any form I guess. I'm not among them, just saying there ARE detractors out there.
I would disagree with those detractors. I thought Nightwing got a lot of characterization in Season 2 even if we didn't see him in action as often. When he was in action, it counted.

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That line about Wally being Bart's mentor can be taken as hearsay, due to Jamie prompting sour grapes, and throwing things out there WITHOUT knowing whether it's actually FACT. Same thing with Demona in Gargoyles, where fans took her words about how, "There are no gargoyles species left." in Hunter's Moon, Part 1." as a literal fact. It never occurred to them that MAYBE she was full of crap in what she was saying. Same as Tim's words about how, "Martian's love televison.", when Greg later stepped in and told people not to take that line seriously.
It being hearsay would be even worse. "SUMMIT" seems to rely on the idea that Wally and Bart have hung out between then and "BLOODLINES" since Wally makes a huge deal about passing on his costume to Bart considering he was retired from it himself. I felt that bit came off as awkward as there seemed to want to be a mentor/student dynamic between Wally and Bart, but we didn't get to see it and only had that one line.

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You know that as a sure bet, HOW?
While a merger between Arrowette and Artemis Crock, the "YJ" version of Artemis is very close to a unique DC heroine and to that end close to the heart of the producers. She may have shown up 8 times in Season 2, but all were talking, meaningful appearances. No, maybe Tigress wouldn't have been a team regular anymore, but the show has never wasted her airtime.

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More like they don't know how to write them. Even though with this show they have the perfect excuse in that they don't have to focus on it all the time, when there are other characters too.

The irony is that Spitfire ended up far more interesting than Supermartian (not to mention, had more fanfare), yet they didn't receive anywhere near the amount of screen time Supermartian did.
They likely had no way of knowing how hard fans would attach to "Spitfire" as opposed to "Meganboy" when producing the seasons. Even if so, I doubt they'd have given fans all that they wanted. Bruce Timm was the guy who seemed to try too hard to give fans what they wanted, whether it was the best or not. Speed force, sure. The third showdown with Darkseid, why not. Luthor, Luthor, and more Luthor, next to Joker, Joker, and more Joker? Hey, why not. Weisman (and Vietti) were more willing to take risks and avoid playing things safe, or playing to the crowd. That, naturally, comes with its own banes and boons.

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You make "lasting legacy" sound more like something you'd put on a resume, or a wikipedia page, more than anything else. There's LOTS of superheroes that sound interesting from a wikipedia entry in that sense, but then you read their comics and ask yourself "what is so appealing about this character?"
I can easily think of things Artemis did apart from Wally which had meaning and impact on the seasonal arc - for both seasons. You can't, at least anywhere near as easily, make the same case for Wally. Don't let all the carrying fool you - he was her partner, not the other way around. That's the difference. I think a lot of fans were hoping for more in Season 2 out of him and didn't get it, and felt let down.

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And Dick Grayson didn't have an arc that didn't relate back to Batman in some way. Why do people say Wally was somehow treated unfairly in this sense, and yet they seem to ignore Dick got similar treatment?
Batman in "YJ" is a supporting character. More of a presence than, say, Alfred Pennyworth or even Red Tornado perhaps, but still merely a supporting character in the show. Thus, while Grayson's arc in Season 1 and 2 related to him, we saw it exclusively through his perspective. Batman has one scene, ONE, where he relates not wanting Robin to become like him. That's in comparison to all the scenes Robin/Nightwing had which could be tied to that.

Wally, meanwhile, was attached to one of the leads. For a while they shared perspective but by Season 2, clearly Artemis was the dominant perspective. By the end of the season, Kid-Flash was no more a member of "the team" on a regular basis than Red Tornado was. He'd gone from regular to reoccurring guest star, while Tigress did manage to dabble back into being a lead or at least a major supporting character.

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I feel they dropped the ball with that 9-episode absence. If he appeared in something like Runaways it might've felt like they remembered he was there, and not just bringing him back when it's convenient. He could've had a subplot where he expresses frustration at not being able to do anything to help out, BECAUSE Dick wants him to play "mourning boyfriend" to everyone around him. The Red Volcano incident would give him the opportunity to be beneficial to helping others beyond that when Dick calls him because zeta tubes were down, Flash and Impulse had their hands full in Taipei, he knew Red Volcano, he was only 2 states over, and keeping the Amazo parts out of Red Volcano's hands was a big enough emergency to stop faking it because Dick had few options.

Wally could at least save the people at Star Labs, or stop a fire there. And gain some satisfaction at being able to help in ANY WAY he can. While Blue still defeats RV. We could see how Wally was coping with not being able to help and how it was affecting him. The theme of the show is "Secrets and Lies", so why not explore THAT ONE? Because Blue Beetle, and the Runaways were NOT interesting enough to carry that episode all on their own. Blue was interesting enough to carry a subplot on his own (Beneath), but he wasn't well defined enough for this, while Wally was.

I mean Greg wants us to assume that the same Wally that ran off to the north pole to help in any way he can in the finale, would simply be content to sit on the sidelines "playing a role", that doesn't guarantee Artemis gets home any sooner? I don't see that.
I don't disagree with the heart of your example. While I understand why the "runaways" were needed in a story context - if the Reach were going to create experimental metahumans, some of them would rise to the fore - I don't necessarily feel they were worth being the A-plot focus of 2 episodes over other, more neglected characters. Where we disagree is probably where to have had Wally pop up more. Weisman stated in the blog that Nightwing (all but deliberately) kept Wally out of the loop in terms of "the plan" and only informed him on a need to know basis. The only reason he knew about Artemis' death being fake was because she's insisted upon on (according to Weisman). The irony is if Wally genuinely believed Artemis were dead, he may have popped up more if only to avenge her, which would have been dramatic. But more to the point, once "DARKEST" happened, Wally was in the loop and I can't think of a good reason why he wasn't helping in some capacity in "BEFORE THE DAWN".

Frankly, if I could pick one episode which could have been heavily rewritten, I'd have chosen "CORNERED". The fact that it's antagonist is a near mute purple brute has a lot to do with it. Impulse was getting checked out by doctors after his abduction, good place to have Wally turn up. Virtually any other threat could have served in Despero's place so long as it required the Reach ambassador's aid in the end. Hell, they could have dusted Parasite off from "PERFORMANCE" if a purple villain who could slap the team around was a must.

If it were up to me, Wally could have remained retired but served a role sort of between Black Canary and Mal Duncun - providing science geek skills with building or managing tech as well as some consulting as a former teenage superhero. But, the show preferred Canary and Mal in those roles. I do feel Weisman and Vietti, by their admissions, felt they were in a catch-22 there. Have more Wally time and risk their audience guessing their finale, or limit it to surprise them. The surprise worked but I feel it lost some organic feeling in the bargain. Execution can sometimes make the lack of surprise moot (i.e. "The Avengers" film), so I probably wouldn't have second guessed their ability to sell it as much as they seemed to.

I do feel the finale lost something with that long absence from its sacrificial lamb. It obviously had the desired effect, but I think some added airtime for the season would have only aided in that regard, and in that sense I would disagree with Weisman's choice (while understanding why he and Vietti made it).

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Your absolutely positive on this HOW?
Weisman was not a fan of potent power levels or focusing too much on them. I imagine fretting about whenever Wally was going to match up to Barry was the last thing on his mind. If anything, he found Wally more interesting because he put on the tights not only without being Barry's match, but not expecting to be.

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Last edited by Dread; 04-21-2013 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:32 AM   #496
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

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Originally Posted by Dread View Post
Having super powers that steadily kill you is a good reason to either not use them very often or not use them at their full potency. That was a weakness Barry Allen never had.
That changes Wally's top speed how?

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After all, I don't think Greg Weisman and/or Brandon Vietti consider it part of Wally's "core truth" to become the Flash. There are other aspects to his character they maintained and embellished, but that path to Flashdom I don't think they believed was absolute. Obviously, you'd disagree.
Considering that majority of Wally's existence is covered by his time as the flash, and given one of the major premises of this show is the sidekicks coming into their own (Wally in the comics underlines this), duh I would disagree.
That's assuming that Greg and Brandon would think Wally is actually dead and/or won't come back/be revived. And given how they second guessed themselves at the beginning of season 2 production with whether to make it Barry. And Greg feeling the need to go out of his way to disprove myth #1 in this ramble (a myth he never stated mind you), I don't think this death or "death" was intended to be permanent.

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Again, I wish some episode in Season 1 had the room to state this. Beyond some random lines in "DENIAL", Wally's origin as well as the origin of the Flashes was a mystery if you just watched the TV show alone.
It was never stated in the tie-in comic. It's just common sense. Also your complaint that he didn't get his own arc. How did the comic change that status? Also Wally was his own character, in the sense that you understood how he thinks and what would drive him. If anything I feel Kaldur came across as a character defined by what the show needed, NOT what the show needed from him as an individual; like the rest of the characters did. Just because Wally didn't get as meaty a part as some other characters DOESN'T somehow mean he wasn't his own individual character.

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Kaldur, who is all about honor and doing what is right, was forced to not merely just pretend to be evil - he had to legitimately betray a father who loved him (who happened to be genuinely corrupt).
That love becomes questionable when you ask, where the hell Black Manta was for the rest of Kaldur's life? I think it was more conditional love than season 2 let on. So while I think he was conflicted I don't think it was hard for him.

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No, maybe Tigress wouldn't have been a team regular anymore, but the show has never wasted her airtime.
Secrets might argue with you on that one.

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Don't let all the carrying fool you - he was her partner, not the other way around. That's the difference.
Don't take this the wrong way Dread but your insistence in trying to prove she was "the dominant one" in the relationship comes across as borderline sexist. As if screen time determines whether a couple is actually on equal footing or not.

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Batman in "YJ" is a supporting character. More of a presence than, say, Alfred Pennyworth or even Red Tornado perhaps, but still merely a supporting character in the show. Thus, while Grayson's arc in Season 1 and 2 related to him, we saw it exclusively through his perspective. Batman has one scene, ONE, where he relates not wanting Robin to become like him. That's in comparison to all the scenes Robin/Nightwing had which could be tied to that.
That doesn't somehow CHANGE the fact that his arc RELIED on another characters existence.

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once "DARKEST" happened, Wally was in the loop and I can't think of a good reason why he wasn't helping in some capacity in "BEFORE THE DAWN".
How so? He knew a mountain was destroyed that doesn't mean he knew WHEN they planned their rescue.

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Frankly, if I could pick one episode which could have been heavily rewritten, I'd have chosen "CORNERED".
But then that forces Wally to drop the facade by suiting up. Besides how do you know Despero wouldn't have meant something in season 3? With my Runaways suggestion, he only suits up because it's an emergency with no one else around but Blue Beetle near, the potential number of people knowing would be smaller.


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Old 04-22-2013, 02:26 AM   #497
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Exclamation Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

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Originally Posted by Artistsean View Post
If you could give this show a proper ending, a planned one, maybe a last season for them to wrap things up in advance, like 30 Rock did, what would you want to see them do?
Naturally of course whether "ENDGAME" was a "proper ending" is variable on how one enjoyed it, but it's the last produced episode. I have my own wish list but instead I could try to speculate on the future.

Had "YOUNG JUSTICE" seen a third season, there'd have been another time jump; Weisman stated so in blog posts. How long it'd have been is unknown but there would have been a progression of time after "ENDGAME". I imagine once the heroes got over the mourning phase they may think that things are easier with "The Light" dismantled but I imagine it could get rougher as now there was a vacuum. The risk would be to avoid imitating "Invasion" too much with Apokolips, but I think their "take over" or attempted conquest of earth may be more subtle. After all, Apokolips agents and/or technology had been established as being utilized by the mafia (Intergang in particular, which is based in Metropolis) as well as having infiltrated the media with Godfrey. The War World may have been used to establish some conquests in space but any attempted moves on earth would be more subtle, and heroes might be stunned by how many long term "sleeper" agents may have been set up in strategic social and government points. The very idea of Darkseid and Vandal Savage working in unison while also likely trying to one up the other is instant drama.

Aqualad would naturally still lead the team, although I would have dreaded another batch of newbies. I imagine Static would have been on the team. If the show was ballsy, Batman might have retired or stepped down from the Justice League, and/or Grayson would have become a member as Nightwing. I imagine Bart would have become more serious, trying to honor Wally's sacrifice and Tigress may have become colder without him, risking getting too close to her sister's demeanor for comfort (since ironically, Cheshire has a husband and a child). Blue Beetle likely would have stepped back from focus, and if Superboy had any dignity he'd move on from Megan.

Arsenal and the Runaways (god, they sound like a band) would still be on the fringes, sharing angst and blowing things up. It's possible Jason Todd may have been resurrected by Ra's at some point, like in "Under the Red Hood", which would have made for a fascinating arc. I imagine Luthor and Queen Bee would still advance the goals of the Light, only they'd be far more underground and scattered now - and probably more dangerous to root.

But, a third season would have never happened. I imagine they'd have wanted to introduce Stephanie Brown as Batgirl, and at that point Dan DiDio would have assumed giant size and chased the production team out of town.

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Originally Posted by nygma619 View Post
That changes Wally's top speed how?
No, but it made him less likely to use it very often. At least until it was fixed so he could take over the mantle.

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Considering that majority of Wally's existence is covered by his time as the flash, and given one of the major premises of this show is the sidekicks coming into their own (Wally in the comics underlines this), duh I would disagree.
That's assuming that Greg and Brandon would think Wally is actually dead and/or won't come back/be revived. And given how they second guessed themselves at the beginning of season 2 production with whether to make it Barry. And Greg feeling the need to go out of his way to disprove myth #1 in this ramble (a myth he never stated mind you), I don't think this death or "death" was intended to be permanent.
C'mon, Weisman brought it up on his blog because it's become a major source of debate and focus in regards to discussing "ENDGAME". I mean, look at just the two of us right here. He was debunking rumors which had arisen from reports from a convention panel, and naturally Kid-Flash stuff was among them.

I don't disagree that Wally West has been the Flash of a generation. He's the Barry Allen to fans who happen to be under 40 years old - of whom there seem to be few in DC upper management, but probably make up a large chunk of their audience. Even as a fair weather DC fan I am used to West being Flash and Kyle Rayner being Green Lantern, etc (and Cassie Cain being Batgirl and Barbara Gordon being Oracle, and so on).

I'm of the sort where I feel death in comics as well as comic related adapted fiction has become cheapened from simultaneous overuse and undoing. We just assume any and all deaths are temporary. While experience makes this a reality, I do feel something is lost. While we can all grouse or debate about whether Kid-Flash had enough screen time, I don't look forward to the ridiculous narrative gymnastics needed to resurrect Wally and I don't think they'd have deliberately broken the hearts of half the Internet just to make it moot in another dozen episodes or so. After so many fake outs I imagine they wanted a death that stuck, and I think Wally as per their design fit the perfect mold of a character people cared about enough to miss, and a character who had nowhere to go once Impulse had supplanted him. Someone had to prove that victories aren't always easy when one wants to save the world. Altering that with a "well, just kidding" sort of resurrection cheapens it.

That said, I wouldn't put it past CADMUS and/or the Light to have been total jerks and cloned him.


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It was never stated in the tie-in comic. It's just common sense.
I wouldn't know, since I didn't read the comic. I know some details of the origin were specified there from some previous posts.

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That love becomes questionable when you ask, where the hell Black Manta was for the rest of Kaldur's life? I think it was more conditional love than season 2 let on. So while I think he was conflicted I don't think it was hard for him.
I was under the impression that Kaldur did not know that Black Manta was his father until not long before Season 2 started. Aquaman omitted that knowledge from him. It was enough of a shock that Wally fretted that Kaldur had legitimately gone bad because it happened not long before or after Tula's death. So it could have been a case of Manta having no access.

Black Manta wasn't a prince, and any father who vows to "beat" something into a son isn't good. He's also a sea faring tyrant and international criminal. That said, I'd wager he loved Kaldur more than Sportsmaster loved his girls. At least in scales of terrible super villain fathers.

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Secrets might argue with you on that one.
I enjoyed "SECRETS".

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Don't take this the wrong way Dread but your insistence in trying to prove she was "the dominant one" in the relationship comes across as borderline sexist. As if screen time determines whether a couple is actually on equal footing or not.
There's nothing innately sexist about establishing which party is dominant in a relationship or in the expression of one. When a male hero is dominant over a heroine who seems to exist alongside him for a season or so, we don't tend to bat an eye because of its commonality. I have said many times that I thought it was a bit of equal time in that regard. Julia Carpenter is a perfectly capable and engaging heroine (who history has forgotten had the "black spider costume design" before either Peter or Venom); yet in the 90's "Iron Man" cartoon she is nothing more than Tony Stark's romantic interest and we don't bat an eye. Even Wonder Woman becomes secondary to Batman once they have some romantic tension when "JLU" got swinging. He's the one who saves her from Circe, after all, and it's often from his perspective.

The reverse dynamic is common in many girls' manga/anime series ("Sailor Moon" maybe being the biggest example; Tuxedo Mask is nothing without Usagi/Sailor Moon to define him), but less so in Western animation. Part of the cult appeal of "X-MEN EVOLUTION" was due to its well handled female cast; to this day a great chunk of its fans online are women. So I don't intend to imply that Wally being Artemis' partner as she goes on to have more defined arcs apart from him is itself sexist. I am simply calling a spade a spade as I see it. If it were the reverse, you bet we'd have discussed it by now.

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That doesn't somehow CHANGE the fact that his arc RELIED on another characters existence.
Frankly, Batman's existence in the show didn't matter as much as Artemis'. Again, he is a supporting character. Grayson also has a different dynamic with him than Artemis had with Wally.

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How so? He knew a mountain was destroyed that doesn't mean he knew WHEN they planned their rescue.
Considering how undermanned the team was for that mission, Nightwing should have asked for Wally's help in some regard. Wally also could have insisted on tagging along no matter what, at least in some capacity. I let it go at the time but with hindsight I do think there was a place there. Tell me all of fandom wouldn't have gasped if he was across a hallway from Tigress for a split second, they share a glance but then have to continue onward.

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But then that forces Wally to drop the facade by suiting up. Besides how do you know Despero wouldn't have meant something in season 3? With my Runaways suggestion, he only suits up because it's an emergency with no one else around but Blue Beetle near, the potential number of people knowing would be smaller.
I had a hard time accepting Wally's retirement once Artemis was out of the picture. Yes, he tended to her mother, but that only lasts so long. And by "tended" I mean, "shared a scene at a fake grave site in one episode". To touch upon the above point, how often in a superhero or related series do we see the female in a relationship tend to the family of the hero as he's off on some dangerous quest? This was a role reversal, even if we only got it in one scene.

"CORNERED" features many characters Wally knows and has a connection to be involved with - Impulse, Superboy, Miss Martian, Zatanna, hell, even Captain Marvel. At best "RUNAWAYS" had Neutron and even that's a stretch. It wouldn't have felt as organic. In "BLOODLINES", "SUMMIT", and "ENDGAME", Wally wasn't willing to suit up again unless whatever crisis directly involved someone within his immediate family, whether his lover or uncle. If he suited up in "RUNAWAYS", there'd have been no excuse why he'd remained retired without Artemis if he's willing to suit up for a random robot crisis but not any other threat of the week. I don't think it works as well, as far as fan inspired re-write theories go, but naturally we'll differ on this detail.

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Last edited by Dread; 04-22-2013 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:56 AM   #498
Midnight Black
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

Are you two still going on about this show? Lol...it's over...for now. Let it go. Anything not covered in the show is speculation...and even still some things are subjective. Agree to disagree.

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Old 04-22-2013, 11:16 AM   #499
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

Agreed. The thesis long arguments are getting annoying.

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Old 04-22-2013, 01:24 PM   #500
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Default Re: Young Justice Cartoon - Part 9

Then don't read them fellas, stop being so uptight.

It ain't over till it's over. FIGHT!

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