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Old 04-18-2013, 09:02 AM   #776
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

See I was always excited for costume changes, even when the X-Men were getting new outfits like once a year in the 90's

That said, I do hate Cap's marvelNow costume with a passion.

So I dunno, maybe it's Cap, and his suit being so important.
Or maybe I'm just getting old and grouchy

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:26 AM   #777
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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That's one of those comic storylines that gets written because everything else has already been done. I hope to never see that garbage on screen.
I really liked the Bucky Cap storyline but I agree, it's something that happens because it's a way to shake things up. It's not something that needs to happen this early, if at all, in the Cinematic Universe.
I'd much prefer to see something like the Truth storyline tackled for the next film.

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:59 AM   #778
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

Marvel should've introduced Bucky Cap in the first movie before Steve Rogers ever took the Super Soldier Serum.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:10 AM   #779
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

A Bucky Cap is what you reach once you've exceeded your Bucky Quota. :-P

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:23 AM   #780
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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I would argue that part of the reason they don't work is that too many comic readers demand that things never change. It's part of the reason comics' popularity only goes so high. Any change is looked at like some kind of affront.
Disagree with that. Readers are all for changes, new stories, new characters, etc,... However, many don't want iconic characters to be changed, and I agree with that. They are iconic for a reason, and.changing them pulls them away from why the were iconic in the first place. A great example was ultimate cap, they completely changed the persona of steve, and it didn't work. Yes, iconic outfits go along with this. This doesnt mean anyone is stubborn or people don't things to change in general.

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Old 04-18-2013, 11:40 AM   #781
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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Disagree with that. Readers are all for changes, new stories, new characters, etc,... However, many don't want iconic characters to be changed, and I agree with that. They are iconic for a reason, and.changing them pulls them away from why the were iconic in the first place. A great example was ultimate cap, they completely changed the persona of steve, and it didn't work. Yes, iconic outfits go along with this. This doesnt mean anyone is stubborn or people don't things to change in general.
You just provided an example of what I'm talking about. When you read the Ultimates, were you comparing the new Cap to the old? I'm sure you did, and I'm sure part of the reason you didn't like the change was because it didn't fit with what you expected of the character. You admitted to such when you said "They changed the persona of Steve." If you really bought into the idea of the Ultimates, you'd see that they didn't change anything; they introduced a new guy and his name was Steve.

Comics are hamstrung by the fans. They can't kill a character or end a character's story--because fans would outrage--so they're left with no choice but to recycle the same stuff over and over again. It's why retcons are even a thing.

Fans need to let go and allow new stories into the mix. Nobody can sustain 60 years of fresh storytelling with the same character in the same costume.

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Old 04-18-2013, 12:04 PM   #782
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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Originally Posted by Crimson King View Post
You just provided an example of what I'm talking about. When you read the Ultimates, were you comparing the new Cap to the old? I'm sure you did, and I'm sure part of the reason you didn't like the change was because it didn't fit with what you expected of the character. You admitted to such when you said "They changed the persona of Steve." If you really bought into the idea of the Ultimates, you'd see that they didn't change anything; they introduced a new guy and his name was Steve.

Comics are hamstrung by the fans. They can't kill a character or end a character's story--because fans would outrage--so they're left with no choice but to recycle the same stuff over and over again. It's why retcons are even a thing.

Fans need to let go and allow new stories into the mix. Nobody can sustain 60 years of fresh storytelling with the same character in the same costume.
That's completely subjective

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Old 04-18-2013, 12:09 PM   #783
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

I see an argument in the near future, but for the record I agree with you Crimson King.

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Old 04-18-2013, 01:33 PM   #784
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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Isn't this set about a year after Avengers?
I have no clue how close Cap 2 is set to TA. I wouldn't think it would be RIGHT after, I'm mean he did take off on a Motorcycle at the end of Avengers. That just tells me he was going to go see what there was to see after so many years.

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Old 04-18-2013, 01:44 PM   #785
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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A Bucky Cap is what you reach once you've exceeded your Bucky Quota. :-P
Hehe, yeah. That kinda seems like "I don't know what story to do with Bucky anymore, I KNOW! Make him Cap!"

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Old 04-18-2013, 02:03 PM   #786
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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I have no clue how close Cap 2 is set to TA. I wouldn't think it would be RIGHT after, I'm mean he did take off on a Motorcycle at the end of Avengers. That just tells me he was going to go see what there was to see after so many years.
I thought I remember seeing that Cap2 picks up right after the events of Avengers. Can't recall where tho.

I was guessing that the chronological timeline for Phase 2 was going to be Cap almost right after, Ironman 3-6 months after, Thor 6 months after, Guardians a year after and maybe 6 months before. Unless they're actually spacing the movie years out with the actual years then I dunno

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Old 04-18-2013, 02:12 PM   #787
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

well they made it sound as tho both IM3 and Thor2 are a year out from Avengers
So it's entirely possible Cap2 will be 2 years out, tho that would be a large time gap

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Old 04-18-2013, 02:41 PM   #788
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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You just provided an example of what I'm talking about. When you read the Ultimates, were you comparing the new Cap to the old? I'm sure you did, and I'm sure part of the reason you didn't like the change was because it didn't fit with what you expected of the character. You admitted to such when you said "They changed the persona of Steve." If you really bought into the idea of the Ultimates, you'd see that they didn't change anything; they introduced a new guy and his name was Steve.

Comics are hamstrung by the fans. They can't kill a character or end a character's story--because fans would outrage--so they're left with no choice but to recycle the same stuff over and over again. It's why retcons are even a thing.

Fans need to let go and allow new stories into the mix. Nobody can sustain 60 years of fresh storytelling with the same character in the same costume.
You completely missed my point i think.

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Old 04-18-2013, 02:58 PM   #789
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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You completely missed my point i think.
How so? Seemed like your point was that change is okay as long as it's not to an iconic character or their outfit. That's the part I referenced.

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Old 04-18-2013, 05:29 PM   #790
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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You just provided an example of what I'm talking about. When you read the Ultimates, were you comparing the new Cap to the old? I'm sure you did, and I'm sure part of the reason you didn't like the change was because it didn't fit with what you expected of the character. You admitted to such when you said "They changed the persona of Steve." If you really bought into the idea of the Ultimates, you'd see that they didn't change anything; they introduced a new guy and his name was Steve.

Comics are hamstrung by the fans. They can't kill a character or end a character's story--because fans would outrage--so they're left with no choice but to recycle the same stuff over and over again. It's why retcons are even a thing.

Fans need to let go and allow new stories into the mix. Nobody can sustain 60 years of fresh storytelling with the same character in the same costume.
I can agree with that, to some extent, regarding comic books (although the case can be made that new generations have put a new spin on those same old stories every 15,20 years or so --- "everything old is new again"); but the cinematic universe is brand new. You need to be *establishing* these characters, who they are, what they look like --- not having them go through a new costume and/or personality change every sequel. At some point, the question has to be asked, "Who *is* Captain America?" in the MCU, and you have to be able to have a solid answer about who Steve is, what he looks like, what he does, what he stands for. If he's taking on a new role with each movie, and a new look with each movie, then nobody can definitively say who the hell this character is, or what he's even here for.

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Old 04-18-2013, 05:41 PM   #791
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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I can agree with that, to some extent, regarding comic books (although the case can be made that new generations have put a new spin on those same old stories every 15,20 years or so --- "everything old is new again"); but the cinematic universe is brand new. You need to be *establishing* these characters, who they are, what they look like --- not having them go through a new costume and/or personality change every sequel. At some point, the question has to be asked, "Who *is* Captain America?" in the MCU, and you have to be able to have a solid answer about who Steve is, what he looks like, what he does, what he stands for. If he's taking on a new role with each movie, and a new look with each movie, then nobody can definitively say who the hell this character is, or what he's even here for.
I think it's the same with why certain movie themes of certain franchises have become iconic (and the same for TV series). They have the same theme music each movie (or each week) and so people become familiar with it and associate it with that thing. Superman, Jaws, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Back To The Future - movies like that have an unmistakeable theme that doesn't change for each movie. That's the problem with most of the Marvel movies - they don't have a distinct theme because they keep changing composer, and so the character doesn't have an identity.

That's why I would like Alan Silvestri back for Cap 2, just so he can reuse the Cap theme again.

Cap needs an iconic movie costume and not these apologies for one. Let it sit with the public for a while before changing it up too much.

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Old 04-18-2013, 06:13 PM   #792
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The dude's name is Captain America. It's pretty clear what he stands for.

I think a dude running around in an American Flag can look very silly at times but that doesn't mean I forget who he is or what he stands for.

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Old 04-18-2013, 06:31 PM   #793
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Well obvously he stands for Truth, Justice and the American Waaait a second... nm

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Old 04-18-2013, 06:41 PM   #794
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 3

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I can agree with that, to some extent, regarding comic books (although the case can be made that new generations have put a new spin on those same old stories every 15,20 years or so --- "everything old is new again"); but the cinematic universe is brand new. You need to be *establishing* these characters, who they are, what they look like --- not having them go through a new costume and/or personality change every sequel. At some point, the question has to be asked, "Who *is* Captain America?" in the MCU, and you have to be able to have a solid answer about who Steve is, what he looks like, what he does, what he stands for. If he's taking on a new role with each movie, and a new look with each movie, then nobody can definitively say who the hell this character is, or what he's even here for.
I agree that it's different in the MCU because it's the first time translating these characters to screen. This is Cap's third movie appearance, though, so some knowledge of who he is and what he stands for has to be assumed. You're also dealing with the third director(s) to tell his story, and they're naturally going to want to make it their own, including the costume design.

I have my own theories about why they chose this suit, but we should probably wait until we know more about the story before we start calling this his new Cap outfit going forward.

(I still love the ---- out of the new look, though)

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Old 04-18-2013, 07:09 PM   #795
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Disagree with that. Readers are all for changes, new stories, new characters, etc,... However, many don't want iconic characters to be changed, and I agree with that. They are iconic for a reason, and.changing them pulls them away from why the were iconic in the first place. A great example was ultimate cap, they completely changed the persona of steve, and it didn't work. Yes, iconic outfits go along with this. This doesnt mean anyone is stubborn or people don't things to change in general.
Didn't work for who? Every reader is different. I had no problem with Ult. Cap. He had a different personality than mainstream Cap...no big deal.

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Old 04-18-2013, 07:25 PM   #796
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Didn't work for who? Every reader is different. I had no problem with Ult. Cap. He had a different personality than mainstream Cap...no big deal.

Queue nerd rage in ...5...4...3...2..

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Old 04-18-2013, 07:29 PM   #797
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You think the letters "SHH" stand for France?!

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Old 04-18-2013, 07:34 PM   #798
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lol

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Old 04-18-2013, 07:39 PM   #799
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How so? Seemed like your point was that change is okay as long as it's not to an iconic character or their outfit. That's the part I referenced.
I guess a way to think about it is... if a character has been completely changed, and only has a name in common ... is it still the same character? I would say no, it isn't... and I would also say "why did they even name that character "so and so" if the character is completely different"? ... I guess a good example is the latest movie of Clash of the Titans... why was it called Clash of the Titans? It had nothing to do with the original story and was a good story on it's own... why not call it something different? Again, this doesn't mean we are against change, but if something is just different, call it something different...

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Old 04-18-2013, 08:32 PM   #800
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I guess a way to think about it is... if a character has been completely changed, and only has a name in common ... is it still the same character? I would say no, it isn't... and I would also say "why did they even name that character "so and so" if the character is completely different"? ... I guess a good example is the latest movie of Clash of the Titans... why was it called Clash of the Titans? It had nothing to do with the original story and was a good story on it's own... why not call it something different? Again, this doesn't mean we are against change, but if something is just different, call it something different...
Ask yourself what you didn't like about Ultimate Cap. If the answer in any way references the original Cap, you've just proved my point.

I'm telling you, comic fanboys are their own worst enemy. They're literally killing what they love out of devotion (and I'm only talking about the comics medium here, not the movies).

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