The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Batman > Batman World

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-20-2013, 12:20 PM   #51
Travesty
TEOL
 
Travesty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Bane's lair, of cursssshh!
Posts: 15,509
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

I dunno, my head is spinning on both sides of the argument here. It's kinda hard to take any "side" seriously, when I keep seeing people bring up TDKReturns, and trying to play that book off as something "faithful" to the source, when that book is clearly an Elseworld tale.

Just because there are comic books with Batman in it, doesn't mean it is "faithful".

__________________
*Of curssssshhhh Kane would do my avy.

Last edited by Travesty; 04-20-2013 at 12:27 PM.
Travesty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 12:54 PM   #52
LuisTX85
Z
 
LuisTX85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
Year One, Long Halloween, No Man's Land, The Dark Knight Returns... the trilogy in some cases lifted directly from these comics. I don't see how they fail to do the source material justice.
Yeah Nolan and/or Goyer got inspired by those for many elements throughout the trilogy But characters(appearances and portrayals)and Gotham City(Begins came very close though)for the most part just didn't get handled well.

The dark tone/Gotham in Begins/Some story elements/Alfred in BB&TDK and Joker(for the most part)are the only things truly faithful to the Bat mythology in the comics!

The dark tones(especially B'89)/Batman in Burton's films(yes even the killing since Bob Kane had Batman kill in the first couple of issues)and Gotham in B'89 were done justice!

Even Schumacher got Bruce Wayne AND Batman in Forever better than Bale's in Nolan's films!

__________________
Z..The Mark of Zorro

Last edited by LuisTX85; 04-20-2013 at 01:00 PM.
LuisTX85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 12:58 PM   #53
ThePhantasm
The Shadow Knows
 
ThePhantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 10,551
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Travesty, is it possible to be "faithful" in some sort of strict sense? Even the canonical comics have a multiplicity of interpretations of the character. By "faithful" I simply meant that the films drew from the comics directly, canonical comics or no... they drew from well beloved interpretations of the character.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesConceptz View Post
Im done. Im leaving this website. I promise i will not be spiderman or attempt to be. I have a ral careerr to fulfill. Please don NOT tell anyone about this. I would appreciate if you all kept this a secret.
ThePhantasm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 01:02 PM   #54
LuisTX85
Z
 
LuisTX85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Stories..yes,Character..not so much

__________________
Z..The Mark of Zorro
LuisTX85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 01:08 PM   #55
ThePhantasm
The Shadow Knows
 
ThePhantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 10,551
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

No movie is going to directly adapt a story though. I don't see what more we can demand or require in terms of "faithfulness" when a movie is directly lifting certain scenes while also crafting something new.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesConceptz View Post
Im done. Im leaving this website. I promise i will not be spiderman or attempt to be. I have a ral careerr to fulfill. Please don NOT tell anyone about this. I would appreciate if you all kept this a secret.
ThePhantasm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 01:15 PM   #56
LuisTX85
Z
 
LuisTX85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

I agree But your talking about story and other elements,My biggest problem with the trilogy is Bruce/Batman..Bale did great But the character is just not truly how he is suppose to be and how easily Nolan could have gotten that right and the character is the most important thing to me.

__________________
Z..The Mark of Zorro
LuisTX85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 01:17 PM   #57
ThePhantasm
The Shadow Knows
 
ThePhantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 10,551
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

LuisTX85, in what ways did they get the character wrong? Didn't you just agree with me above that there are multiple interpretations of the character in the comics themselves?

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesConceptz View Post
Im done. Im leaving this website. I promise i will not be spiderman or attempt to be. I have a ral careerr to fulfill. Please don NOT tell anyone about this. I would appreciate if you all kept this a secret.
ThePhantasm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 01:22 PM   #58
Travesty
TEOL
 
Travesty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Bane's lair, of cursssshh!
Posts: 15,509
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
Travesty, is it possible to be "faithful" in some sort of strict sense? Even the canonical comics have a multiplicity of interpretations of the character. By "faithful" I simply meant that the films drew from the comics directly, canonical comics or no... they drew from well beloved interpretations of the character.
I wasn't talking to you directly, but when I keep seeing people bring up points of Batman's retirement, and laying claims that since it was in TDKReturns, that it is somehow "faithful" to the cannon, when clearly, that shouldn't be the case at all.

And I thought that's what this thread was about: being "faithful"? Elseworld tales are a lot of fun to read, but I wouldn't consider the majority of them to be "faithful". That's the point to those stories.....

__________________
*Of curssssshhhh Kane would do my avy.
Travesty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 01:29 PM   #59
ThePhantasm
The Shadow Knows
 
ThePhantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 10,551
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

I get what you are saying. I think Batman's retirement in TDKR (the movie) was unfaithful to the character as well. Even in TDKReturns though he doesn't really retire, not like he did in the movie. He comes back. He can't escape being Batman, even in old age. And in Batman Beyond he only retires because he physically can't do it anymore. And then he gets back in the game by helping Terry. So the sort of total abandonment that we see in the film has no basis in the comics... Bruce never outgrows Batman as a character. He never gets over that or "moves on." I can't think of a single instance in the comics where that occurs.

So yeah, I agree with you, I just don't use the argument that TDKReturns doesn't count because it is Elseworlds... I'd instead say it doesn't count because we don't see Bruce retire in that way.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesConceptz View Post
Im done. Im leaving this website. I promise i will not be spiderman or attempt to be. I have a ral careerr to fulfill. Please don NOT tell anyone about this. I would appreciate if you all kept this a secret.
ThePhantasm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 01:36 PM   #60
LuisTX85
Z
 
LuisTX85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
LuisTX85, in what ways did they get the character wrong? Didn't you just agree with me above that there are multiple interpretations of the character in the comics themselves?
-Bruce studied criminals in the underworld crime and trained But didn't find other very useful skills

-Bruce is not the world's best detective

-Bruce/Batman relies too much on Fox

-Young Batman retired within a year of his career where as a young new Batman would never give up even after what happened with Dent

-Bruce/Batman is never as smart&confident as he should be

He just overall seems very off to me,I agreed about a movie not directly adapting stuff from the comics without crafting new things,Yes there are different interpretations of Bruce/Batman..But he's always had what I explained intact!!

__________________
Z..The Mark of Zorro

Last edited by LuisTX85; 04-20-2013 at 01:39 PM.
LuisTX85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:11 PM   #61
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 36,898
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuisTX85 View Post
-Bruce studied criminals in the underworld crime and trained But didn't find other very useful skills
What other useful skills did you want him to get? He learned martial arts, theatricality, deception, and purged his fear of Bats.

Quote:
-Bruce is not the world's best detective
He did more detective work than any other movie version of Batman. He showed technical and forensic smarts in his detective work.

Quote:
-Bruce/Batman relies too much on Fox
That I agree with.

Quote:
-Young Batman retired within a year of his career where as a young new Batman would never give up even after what happened with Dent
His retirement had nothing to do with what happened to Dent. It was that Gotham didn't need Batman any more because crime was virtually abolished in Gotham thanks to Dent's legacy and the Dent Act.

Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"

Batman didn't become Batman to take on jay walkers and purse snatchers.

Quote:
-Bruce/Batman is never as smart&confident as he should be
Smart and confident in what way? He's the only adapted version of the character, aside from Conroy, to play Bruce Wayne as a two sided coin. The playboy exterior and the real humanitarian Bruce Wayne.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker

Last edited by The Joker; 04-20-2013 at 02:14 PM.
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:21 PM   #62
LuisTX85
Z
 
LuisTX85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Seems I can't post my opinions without keep being questioned and made a big deal about it,I simply think the films could have been much better and adapted even more faithfully and it's just my opinions!!

I already said I at least think the trilogy are the best Bat films as a whole in each film.

__________________
Z..The Mark of Zorro
LuisTX85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:24 PM   #63
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 36,898
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuisTX85 View Post
Seems I can't post my opinions without keep being questioned and made a big deal about it,I simply think the films could have been much better and adapted even more faithfully and it's just my opinions!!

I already said I at least think the trilogy are the best Bat films as a whole in each film.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you or anything. I was just addressing points you posted on a public forum.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:29 PM   #64
LuisTX85
Z
 
LuisTX85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Your right But I just feel something about the character is off,Keaton is my favorite Batman and Kilmer is my favorite Bruce&#2 Batman But maybe I have to rematch the trilogy more carefully

__________________
Z..The Mark of Zorro
LuisTX85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:36 PM   #65
Skrilla31
Side-Kick
 
Skrilla31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 793
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

I actually agree with LuisTX85. Nolan's Batman was not the Batman of the comics but that's what made him vulnerable and that's why these movies were so gripping.

Batman in the comics is almost always a step ahead of his enemies. It's kind of impossible to outsmart Batman, so for Bruce to fall for Talia's ruse... that's very out of character for him. The comic book Batman would have smelled it coming from a mile away and planned accordingly. I also don't think he could have been so easily manipulated by the Joker into saving Dent instead of Rachel. Again I am NOT criticizing Nolan I am just pointing out that he did in fact strip Batman of some of his traits in order to tell a stronger story. The comic book Batman wouldn't have been pushed to the limit like he was in Nolan's world. By making Batman more "imperfect", it allowed for him to explore other themes and I'm fine with it.

Ultimately Nolan told a story about will. That's what defines his Batman. Not his smarts, not his wits... but his will. His Batman could be outsmarted. His Batman could be outmatched. But what no one else has is Batman's will, and because of that his Batman could achieve anything.

Skrilla31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:42 PM   #66
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 36,898
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Batman's been taken for a ride in the comics by deceptive villainous women. A recent example that springs to mind is Jezebel Jet and the whole Black Glove story. Joker didn't manipulate Batman into saving Dent. He just lied to him about their locations because he knew Batman had personal affection for Rachel. How many times has Joker tricked Batman in the comics? Countless.

Batman has been pushed to the limit several times in the comics. How do you think Bane managed to break him for example?

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:44 PM   #67
LuisTX85
Z
 
LuisTX85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

I think that's exactly it,I'm too used to that ingredient of the character in the comics and in other mediums,Plus I love the comic book fantastical elements and that's why I'm so fond of Keaton&Kilmer's portrayal

__________________
Z..The Mark of Zorro
LuisTX85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:46 PM   #68
Skrilla31
Side-Kick
 
Skrilla31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 793
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Fine, Batman's been bested on more than one occasion. I'll give you that. That's not the point Luis was trying to make. What he was trying to say - I think - was that Nolan's Batman wasn't as brilliant, wasn't as inventive, and wasn't as impermeable as he's normally depicted in the comics. He's not wrong about that.

Skrilla31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:50 PM   #69
LuisTX85
Z
 
LuisTX85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
Fine, Batman's been bested on more than one occasion. I'll give you that. That's not the point Luis was trying to make. What he was trying to say - I think - was that Nolan's Batman wasn't as brilliant, wasn't as inventive, and wasn't as impermeable as he's normally depicted in the comics. He's not wrong about that.
Yup,I get too caught up with excitement when reading a Bat comic or watching a TAS episode or playing the Arkham games and I'm like.."I want this exact same Bruce/Batman on film!"

__________________
Z..The Mark of Zorro
LuisTX85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:53 PM   #70
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 36,898
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
Fine, Batman's been bested on more than one occasion. I'll give you that. That's not the point Luis was trying to make. What he was trying to say - I think - was that Nolan's Batman wasn't as brilliant, wasn't as inventive, and wasn't as impermeable as he's normally depicted in the comics. He's not wrong about that.
The comics are not finite universe and have spanned decades. The movies are confined to tell a story within 2-3 hours. How could you tell the story of Batman vs Bane and not include the infamous breaking of Batman? Or Batman vs Joker and not show Joker killing someone Batman cares about, or being the ultimate trickster and getting one over on Batman at least once in the movie?

These kinds of things are infamous hallmark traits of Batman's relationship with these villains. If you want a practically untouchable Batman that's fine. Your preference.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 02:56 PM   #71
Skrilla31
Side-Kick
 
Skrilla31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 793
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

No I'm actually pretty happy with the Batman Nolan gave us. Don't get me wrong there were little plot points I might have avoided but jesus you gotta applaud the guy for his ambition and taking the character to those heights, and on the big screen no less. The scene where Bruce climbs out of the pit was just... I mean the s*** made me cry. Such a powerful and moving moment and something you wouldn't normally expect from a movie based on a superhero.

Skrilla31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 08:34 PM   #72
Shikamaru
Side-Kick
 
Shikamaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,624
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuisTX85 View Post
-Bruce studied criminals in the underworld crime and trained But didn't find other very useful skills
He got all the skills needed to be Batman. They just focused more on his martial arts, theatricality, and deception more than his wits and stuff.

Quote:
-Bruce is not the world's best detective
Quote:
-Bruce/Batman relies too much on Fox
Agreed. These things bother me too. In my opinion, Batman's intelligence being so downplayed is the only thing that keeps Batman Begins and The Dark Knight from being 100% perfect (TDKR on the other hand has tons of other problems). It is really sad that Nolan did such a piss poor job with Batman's wits and intelligence since he nailed pretty much every other important aspect of Batman in BB and TDK (once again, TDKR is the big exception).

There is this line in Batman Begins that I just can't stand. I almost have to fast forward the film just so that I could skip it because it annoys me every time I see it. Basically, in the scene where Bruce wakes up and Fox tells him he developed an antidote and then gives him some complex science explanation to how he created the antidote, Bruce replies saying "Am I supposed to understand any of that?" And right there I just want to walk up to Nolan's Batman and say "Yes! Yes, you're supposed to understand every word of that because you're The Goddamn Batman and you trained your body and mind to perfection so that you could understand **** like that in such crisis! What the **** were you doing for 7 years?"

I will say this though. Nolan's Batman does more detective work than any other Batman in live-action so far. This isn't a defense towards Nolan but a criticism to all live-action versions of Batman for doing such a piss poor job at showing his detective skills. However, Batman's detective skills in the Nolanverse is still an improvement nonetheless. Hopefully we'll see the world's greatest detective in the reboot.

Quote:
-Young Batman retired within a year of his career where as a young new Batman would never give up even after what happened with Dent
See, this is what bothers me about TDKR. If you look at the way BB and TDK are set up, they really seem like they're telling the story of the "young Batman", or the Year One Batman. You really get the feeling in those movies that this is the story of how Batman became the Batman that we all know and love. You can see how much Bruce grows from the beginning of BB till the end of TDK. Heck, by the end of TDK, he feels that he has finally become THE Batman at least from a mindset point of view (thing like becoming the world's greatest detective and such are assumed to come through experience). I believe that this is what Nolan and Goyer intended to do originally. I always viewed TDK's ending as the moment Bruce realizes that he needs to be Batman forever and that there is no true replacement for the Batman, and I remember most people saying the same thing too. That was basically Bruce's character arc in TDK - He wanted to quit and be happy only to learn that that wasn't an option.

The fact that I see people complaining about TDK's ending now because he went home and quit is a bit saddening to me because I don't believe that was the message of TDK and it was just Nolan deviating from whatever he originally intended to do with Batman 3 due to Ledger's death and other personal reasons. It basically confirms my biggest fear that TDKR has now bled into BB and TDK. Instead of people remembering TDK's ending as doing justice to the character for showing what separates Batman from any other vigilante/district attorney and for showing that Batman is willing to keep going no matter what (even if hunted down), most people will now always remember TDK's ending as the night Batman went home and quit for 8 years due to depression over his crush's death and also due to a stupid deus ex machina act that doesn't make much sense to begin with.

Quote:
-Bruce/Batman is never as smart&confident as he should be
I already gave my two cents on Batman not being smart enough. I agree with you on that. However, I kinda liked how Batman wasn't fully there yet in confidence in BB and TDK. It goes back to what I said earlier about this being the Year One Batman. I personally loved how he was growing and becoming the Batman we knew as the story in those 2 movies progressed.[/QUOTE]

Shikamaru is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2013, 08:40 PM   #73
ThePhantasm
The Shadow Knows
 
ThePhantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 10,551
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Batman's been taken for a ride in the comics by deceptive villainous women.
hot chicks are Batman's kryptonite

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesConceptz View Post
Im done. Im leaving this website. I promise i will not be spiderman or attempt to be. I have a ral careerr to fulfill. Please don NOT tell anyone about this. I would appreciate if you all kept this a secret.
ThePhantasm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 02:56 AM   #74
LuisTX85
Z
 
LuisTX85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 15,216
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

@Shikamaru,I completely agree and although I love the trilogy as a whole..Those are some of the reasons why BB&TDK are not only my favorites in the trilogy But my two favorite live-action Bat films in general!

__________________
Z..The Mark of Zorro
LuisTX85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 06:08 AM   #75
theMan-Bat
Nocturnal
 
theMan-Bat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gotham
Posts: 3,315
Default Re: Nolan wasnt any more "faithful" then Tim Burton

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyCage View Post
Batman, faking his death. Courtesy of another user:

That's one of my scans. You're welcome.

__________________
Half-man, half-bat.

THE DEATH OF "SUPERMAN LIVES": WHAT HAPPENED?
Release date unknown. Needs finishing funds for new filming of scenes from the Superman script, etc.


FRANK MILLER'S SIN CITY A DAME TO KILL FOR
In theaters August 22nd.
theMan-Bat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.