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Old 04-23-2013, 01:42 PM   #101
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins View Post
I am a DC fan. (I admit.)

But, it is ridiculous to say that Henry Cavill is Ten times better actor than a senior actor like Robert Downey Jr.

A big credit for making Iron Man franchise and Avengers successful goes to RDJ. Same for WB's Sherlock Homes movies. Not to mention multiple critically acclaimed movies.

I like Superman, but Iron Man 3 is going to be this year's most successful movie.

Now, I think that MOS will be really good movie that has potential to make Superman popular again and it will make about 700 mil worldwide. It certainly looks a lot better than Superman II, Superman III, Superman IV and Superman Returns.

I cannot understand naysayers who don't like MOS simply because of Snyder's other movies or because Nolan is involved with it or because it is following a "grounded" approach.

Edit: For IM 3, i don't mind plot twist whatever that is, as I liked TDKR and the ending did not stop it from becoming a successful movie, regardless of the fact that some fans were not in favor of that.
but when jla is made it would be because of man of steel Henry's movie so it can't be that ridiculous dude .

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Old 04-23-2013, 01:46 PM   #102
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As you sarcastically indicate, the talent behind something is a strong indicator of quality. True, it's not absolutely certain, but MOS has a better story person on story (Nolan) and a better action guy on action (Snyder) and a theme that's deeper and much more far reaching than IM's tech thriller character study. It has notably higher quality actors, with the exceptions of RDJ and Kingsley when compared to the lead hero and villain, and MOS has a higher budget. One of those things would have to be mis-utilized in order for MOS not to be a better film overall, and there's no indication of that happening, but you're right, it is possible and it is subjective. Some people think Superman Returns was superior to Batman Begins. There's nothing to change that, but I'm still going to say Batman Begins was obviously a better film, as though it were a fact, because by any objective standard, assuming such exists, it is.

I won't comment much on the plot twist, because I don't want to know any more about it than I already do. If it works or not, critics will certainly comment on such an important story point, that's their job. And while it may not break the film, if it is anticlimactic/contrived, like the one in TDKR, it will cause the film to be less well received.
Name actors are good for marquee, but they don't guarantee quality. Nor does a high profile producing credit. See IMDB...The ingredients are there, but until we see the film nothing is for certain. What you have is an educated guess at best. The rest is fan-wankery.

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Old 04-23-2013, 02:27 PM   #103
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I'm going to take my own advice to myself from earlier...and ignore him from now on. Talking to brick walls gets you nowhere.

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Old 04-23-2013, 06:20 PM   #104
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Yes, yes, I totally see it now... Cavill IS a better actor than RDJ. No other actor can handle that role.
I have read the books ,he fit's the role of christian grey perfectly and he even he met with the films producers last year to talk about him possibly playing the role and he won't be type cast as superman like his predecessors before he hits 40 he will be bigger then Robert ever was .


and at least Henry did not need nepotism to get work in Hollywood like Jr did and Henry also did not need his girl who produced a few guy Richie movies to get him a role as Sherlock Holmes like Jr needed his wife Susan Downey to do .



"


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Old 04-23-2013, 06:47 PM   #105
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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Originally Posted by SoNicRaDiATioN View Post
Name actors are good for marquee, but they don't guarantee quality. Nor does a high profile producing credit. See IMDB...The ingredients are there, but until we see the film nothing is for certain. What you have is an educated guess at best. The rest is fan-wankery.
I'm not talking about producing credit, I'm talking about a skilled storyteller crafting a story, which is what Nolan did, and may producers do not. I'm not talking about bankability, I'm talking about raw acting talent. There's more oscars and noms and other awards on the MOS side, not bankability. Russel Crowe is the only guy in the MOS squad that's at all bankable, but it's just a powerhouse of acting talent anyway.

Now... trying to act like Nolan is a hands off producer here, or that the movie will be affected more by listing the names that don't fit on the marquee than by the great performances that the entirety of the supporting cast routinely turns in... that's fan wankery.

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Old 04-23-2013, 07:03 PM   #106
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

Iron Man 3 will probably get average to above-average reviews,
and rake in the most money.

MOS.. i don't know. I was never really a fan of Supes, and
the trailers haven't really won me over. Part of me thinks his
time is over (for motion pictures, that is. He'll live on in comics and cartoons forever)

Today's GA wants heroes they can relate to, and an invincible
man from another planet, who has no flaws, and a boy-scout like personality, won't have people rushing to the theaters.

Reasons why TDK and Iron Man did so well were characters like
the crazy and comical Joker, and the first arrogant and self-absorbed superhero, Tony Stark,
both played by A-list actors.

Superman has a boring boy-scout personality who was played-out a long time ago. Pasting a beard on him to make him look like Bruce Wayne in Begins
and attatching the Nolan name to it won't change my mind. It just reeks of desperation on WB's part.

Also, I can't stand Amy Adams.

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Old 04-23-2013, 09:45 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by CJ View Post
Iron Man 3 will probably get average to above-average reviews,
and rake in the most money.

MOS.. i don't know. I was never really a fan of Supes, and
the trailers haven't really won me over. Part of me thinks his
time is over (for motion pictures, that is. He'll live on in comics and cartoons forever)

Today's GA wants heroes they can relate to, and an invincible
man from another planet, who has no flaws, and a boy-scout like personality, won't have people rushing to the theaters.

Reasons why TDK and Iron Man did so well were characters like
the crazy and comical Joker, and the first arrogant and self-absorbed superhero, Tony Stark,
both played by A-list actors.

Superman has a boring boy-scout personality who was played-out a long time ago. Pasting a beard on him to make him look like Bruce Wayne in Begins
and attatching the Nolan name to it won't change my mind. It just reeks of desperation on WB's part.

Also, I can't stand Amy Adams.

I respect your opinion but david goyer told Chris Nolan how he would approach Superman and Nolan stopped what he was doing , pitched the idea to the head of wb and because of his success with the dark knight they allowed Nolan to co write and produce the movie . .

it must be a really good movie if it impressed Nolan and it also seemed to impress Zack Snyder who years before he was chosen by Chris Nolan to direct man of steel said he had no clue how to relaunch superman in today's world . and wb have come out and said how much they love the movie .


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Old 04-23-2013, 09:45 PM   #108
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
I'm not talking about producing credit, I'm talking about a skilled storyteller crafting a story, which is what Nolan did, and may producers do not. I'm not talking about bankability, I'm talking about raw acting talent. There's more oscars and noms and other awards on the MOS side, not bankability. Russel Crowe is the only guy in the MOS squad that's at all bankable, but it's just a powerhouse of acting talent anyway.
Who cares about past Oscar noms, they have nothing to do with MoS. Again, it's a selling point for the film more then anything at this point. It could potentially mean something big with good writing and direction, or it may mean we're disappointed in the end... It's potential, not a certainty about the film's overall quality. And other then Shannon, Crowe, RDJ and Kingsley, the cast is pretty much a wash imo. Talking about raw acting talent here, not oscar noms.

Look at TDKR last summer, how many people were certain it would be the best film of the summer only to be dissappointed? How many people thought it would be the biggest hit of the year? Many people loved it of course, but many who thought they would, didn't. I was on the flip side of that. So we wait and see, nothing is a certanty. Particularily that it will be better then IM3. And even that will be subjective beyond one of the films being absolutely terrible.

Quote:
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Now... trying to act like Nolan is a hands off producer here, or that the movie will be affected more by listing the names that don't fit on the marquee than by the great performances that the entirety of the supporting cast routinely turns in... that's fan wankery.
I'm not trying to "act" like it means nothing, I don't put as much faith in a Chris Nolan producing and story credit like I do in a directing one. But I am expecting the film to be a huge success and have stated as much in the MoS forums. It's my most anticipated film this summer. I'm just not swept up in all the hype to the degree that you appear to be.

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Old 04-23-2013, 10:01 PM   #109
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

Personally....I'm looking forward to both movies....I don't like to get into which movie will do better at the boxoffice discussions, because that isn't something I care about. I want both to do good.

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Old 04-23-2013, 10:03 PM   #110
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

I'm looking forward to both but I feel Iron Man 3 will likely take the box office and MOS will be more emotionally satisfying to me. But I also feel it'll be a really close call, just barely won by MOS (just going off of what we've seen so far of both films).

Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderrocks View Post
strong contender to play christian grey any way you slice it and dice it Henry is better then Robert then and now .
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderrocks View Post
I have read the books ,he fit's the role of christian grey perfectly and he even he met with the films producers last year to talk about him possibly playing the role and he won't be type cast as superman like his predecessors before he hits 40 he will be bigger then Robert ever was .

Well....


You see.....


*Reads the rest of the thread*

Oh God.


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Old 04-23-2013, 10:05 PM   #111
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I'm going to take my own advice to myself from earlier...and ignore him from now on. Talking to brick walls gets you nowhere.
He's everything you could possibly want,""I saw the movie the other day for the first time, and I just love the original as much as anybody but I can't think of another actor in the business today that could come close to what he did. He was just sensational."

Michael Shannon' on henry cavill

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Old 04-23-2013, 10:24 PM   #112
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He's everything you could possibly want,""I saw the movie the other day for the first time, and I just love the original as much as anybody but I can't think of another actor in the business today that could come close to what he did. He was just sensational."

Michael Shannon' on henry cavill


So it must be true because his co-star affirms it? Honestly, would you expect Shannon to give him anything but praise?

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Old 04-23-2013, 10:59 PM   #113
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[QUOTE=Visualiza;25680501]

early on boardwalk empire star Michael Shannon was asked what he thought of Henry he said he was unsure because they only shot one scene together up until the that point . and he had a soft spot for Chris reeve because he was the original and now after he watched the movie he just pretty much called him the best actor in Hollywood .

and your implying he just said it because he was his co star ? when have you ever heard him praise any actor like that just because he was a co star ? oh you haven't didn't think so .


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Old 04-23-2013, 11:09 PM   #114
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That's not the point; point is that you made a fairly outlandish declaration, and despite several reasonable rebuttals from several different people, you outright refuse to entertain anything remotely contrary to your stance on the matter. You seem completely incapable of impartiality. If this is how you plan on debating with folks, then don't expect many people to show much, if any, patience with you at all. Ciao.

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Old 04-23-2013, 11:15 PM   #115
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ View Post
Iron Man 3 will probably get average to above-average reviews,
and rake in the most money.

MOS.. i don't know. I was never really a fan of Supes, and
the trailers haven't really won me over. Part of me thinks his
time is over (for motion pictures, that is. He'll live on in comics and cartoons forever)

Today's GA wants heroes they can relate to, and an invincible
man from another planet, who has no flaws, and a boy-scout like personality, won't have people rushing to the theaters.

Reasons why TDK and Iron Man did so well were characters like
the crazy and comical Joker, and the first arrogant and self-absorbed superhero, Tony Stark,
both played by A-list actors.

Superman has a boring boy-scout personality who was played-out a long time ago. Pasting a beard on him to make him look like Bruce Wayne in Begins
and attatching the Nolan name to it won't change my mind. It just reeks of desperation on WB's part.

Also, I can't stand Amy Adams.
YOU MISCREANT!


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Old 04-23-2013, 11:44 PM   #116
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

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Who cares about past Oscar noms, they have nothing to do with MoS. Again, it's a selling point for the film more then anything at this point. It could potentially mean something big with good writing and direction, or it may mean we're disappointed in the end... It's potential, not a certainty about the film's overall quality. And other then Shannon, Crowe, RDJ and Kingsley, the cast is pretty much a wash imo. Talking about raw acting talent here, not oscar noms.

Look at TDKR last summer, how many people were certain it would be the best film of the summer only to be dissappointed? How many people thought it would be the biggest hit of the year? Many people loved it of course, but many who thought they would, didn't. I was on the flip side of that. So we wait and see, nothing is a certanty. Particularily that it will be better then IM3. And even that will be subjective beyond one of the films being absolutely terrible.

I'm not trying to "act" like it means nothing, I don't put as much faith in a Chris Nolan producing and story credit like I do in a directing one. But I am expecting the film to be a huge success and have stated as much in the MoS forums. It's my most anticipated film this summer. I'm just not swept up in all the hype to the degree that you appear to be.
The reason Oscar Noms are a selling point is because they almost always come with a great deal of acting skill, and this holds true in the cases for this film. The fact that they haven't been used to sell the film shows us that they aren't selling points for the film, they are only a shorthand to communicate the excessive acting talent involved, and the consistency with which they deliver. Russel Crowe is probably going to do a great job, it's not just possible it's likely. So it's not potential, it's likely. This holds true for Shannon, Fishburne, Costner, Lane and Adams as well. Us being disappointed is the minority report, not an equally likely outcome.

I'm sure many people are and were certain of many things, but I don't take votes as logic. If you call that logic hype because where I see 'hmm, Nolan always makes great stories, this will probably be the same' you see 'faith in Nolan' - I'm okay with that. Perhaps it's best you keep your expectations down.

EDIT:

Also... I'm not quite sure TDKR wasn't the best film of the summer. Certainly it didn't win the box office, and it wasn't *even remotely* as much fun as Avengers. But as a film... it had a few foibles like Bruce's magical recovery, and it slowed down way too much at one point... but it mostly just failed to be as good as TDK. Avengers, while I certainly liked it more, and looked forward to it more, has some pretty sizeable plot holes and inconsistencies, and without a love for the characters, everyone's story thread but Iron Man and Hulk's fell a little flat. I think when people say "X was best because I liked it more" I don't think that's actually dealing with the quality of a film. I think there are objective standards of storytelling and visualization that can be applied... and this is what good critics do... that go beyond that subjectivity. In fact, a really good critic can say 'you know what, this was a horrible movie, but if you like this sort of thing, it's a lot of fun, so go see it.' That's how you know they understand the difference between a subjective and an objective film review.

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Old 04-23-2013, 11:44 PM   #117
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i agree with everything you said but one thing tdkr was great and the cast are the selling point and not the Oscars the awesome cast are and it's a 3d superman movie being made by Snyder / Nolan and goyer its going to be remarkable a Nolan story with Snyder Acton and visuals .


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Old 04-23-2013, 11:45 PM   #118
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That's not the point; point is that you made a fairly outlandish declaration, and despite several reasonable rebuttals from several different people, you outright refuse to entertain anything remotely contrary to your stance on the matter. You seem completely incapable of impartiality. If this is how you plan on debating with folks, then don't expect many people to show much, if any, patience with you at all. Ciao.
your calling me incapable of being impartial ? when i quoted Michael Shannon who actually watched the movie you flat out dismissed it because he was his co star so it sure seemed like your point to me .

fairly outlandish declaration ? no that was the guy who called me retarded when he never viewed my medical records .

you rated the iron man franchise at the very top in the thread What are your top 5 "first in the series" superhero movies? you left out Nolan's batman begins and your calling me impartial in a man of steel vs iron man 3 thread ? man of steel is influenced by batman begins .


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Old 04-24-2013, 12:51 AM   #119
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i agree the cast are the selling point and not the Oscars the awesome cast are and it's a 3d superman movie being made by Snyder / nolan and goyer its going to be remarkable a Nolan story with Snyder Acton and visuals .
Snyder would argue with that term.

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Talk then turned to the arguably controversial decision to convert the movie to 3D. However, the director said that seeing some test footage was enough to convince him that there was no need to shoot in the format. "It is just my humble opinion, but it is better than native now. By the way, we like to think that the 3D is just another way of seeing the movie. It is not Superman 3D, it is Man of Steel, available in 3D."

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Old 04-24-2013, 01:06 AM   #120
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Snyder would argue with that term.
it appears he already has lol .


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Old 04-24-2013, 04:47 AM   #121
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i just read on cosmicbooknews.com justice league is being planned for 2016 and both man of steel 2 and the batman reboot are being planned for 2017 so that is another reason to prefer Zack Snyder's man of steel over iron man 3 .


Henry Cavill going back and forth every 3 to 4 year's between playing superman will benefit him getting other roles maybe 007 and would also benefit the quality of his solo man of steel sequels movies better then say rushing out a sequel like marvel studios did with iron man 2 .


What a wonderful challenge to follow up Daniel Craig,’. ‘He has set the bar so high.’ Henry Cavill


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Old 04-24-2013, 07:36 AM   #122
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I prefer this new direction WB is taking their DC characters, targeting a mature audience with deeper themes and depth in characters. Marvel still caters to the 13 and 14 year old kids. Nothing wrong with that, but that approach gets old after a while. I will personally lose interest in Avengers movies gradually, especially after RDJ hangs it up. I can't see Disney/Marvel continually outdoing themselves with teams ups and cross overs for long. I wonder if Disney will take the same approach with Star Wars now. While I like what J.J Abrams did with Star Trek, its sequel doesn't feel like Star Trek. Almost tempted not to watch it in theatres because it's not what Star Trek is supposed to be built on. I can only hope they change their approach with Star Wars and try to make it more like Star Trek of the past, ironically enough. It's difficult finding that balance.

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Old 04-24-2013, 08:42 AM   #123
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I prefer this new direction WB is taking their DC characters, targeting a mature audience with deeper themes and depth in characters. Marvel still caters to the 13 and 14 year old kids. Nothing wrong with that, but that approach gets old after a while. I will personally lose interest in Avengers movies gradually, especially after RDJ hangs it up. I can't see Disney/Marvel continually outdoing themselves with teams ups and cross overs for long. I wonder if Disney will take the same approach with Star Wars now. While I like what J.J Abrams did with Star Trek, its sequel doesn't feel like Star Trek. Almost tempted not to watch it in theatres because it's not what Star Trek is supposed to be built on. I can only hope they change their approach with Star Wars and try to make it more like Star Trek of the past, ironically enough. It's difficult finding that balance.
I hardly call the fine work of Joss Whedon something 13 and 14 year old children would enjoy. Joss Whedon makes work everyone can enjoy. Only time will tell if Joss Whedon can strike gold again with Avengers 2.

Star Wars needs to go back to it's own roots and J.J. Abrams is perfectly capable of that.

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Old 04-24-2013, 11:43 AM   #124
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Also... I'm not quite sure TDKR wasn't the best film of the summer. Certainly it didn't win the box office, and it wasn't *even remotely* as much fun as Avengers. But as a film... it had a few foibles like Bruce's magical recovery, and it slowed down way too much at one point... but it mostly just failed to be as good as TDK. Avengers, while I certainly liked it more, and looked forward to it more, has some pretty sizeable plot holes and inconsistencies, and without a love for the characters, everyone's story thread but Iron Man and Hulk's fell a little flat. I think when people say "X was best because I liked it more" I don't think that's actually dealing with the quality of a film. I think there are objective standards of storytelling and visualization that can be applied... and this is what good critics do... that go beyond that subjectivity. In fact, a really good critic can say 'you know what, this was a horrible movie, but if you like this sort of thing, it's a lot of fun, so go see it.' That's how you know they understand the difference between a subjective and an objective film review.
Rather simplistic, but if you believe that, then hey, more power to you. It's never that black and white imo. A well written review is enough to allow the reader to make up his or her own mind. Having to tell someone to go see a film is just pandering. Let the studios and actors do that in the ads and press junkets. But a lot of critics are shills for the studios anyway.

I'm not sure one can really detatch themselves from their own personal bias, whether it be race, gender, politics, class, education, religon (or lack thereof) etc. I don't think that is the job of the critic (unless he wants to be liked or not hated). I would actually prefer more subjective reviews to the carbon copy, robotic, cut-out reviews that are becoming more prevalent. It's fast-food, all about the ABC's and film mechanics. A good reviewer should have a personal stake in the film. Essentially it's a dialogue. I'm not even sure there's really a point to being a critic of the arts if said person isn't going to engage his own personal experience and beliefs when reviewing a film. He may as well be into mathematics.

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But as a film... it had a few foibles like Bruce's magical recovery, and it slowed down way too much at one point...
And "slowing down way too much.." is completely subjective, so I appreciate that.... What would the objective analysis for that be?

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Old 04-24-2013, 11:46 AM   #125
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Default Re: Iron Man 3 vs Man Of Steel

The question is really this...can Cavill be a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude?

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