Storm VS Mystique

[psylockolussus]

Originally Posted by NanaT

I think you're absolutely right. You're probably the only one on here who actually agrees with me.

We think alike! So I always agree with you!

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by JP

With a movie like this, a "female lead" would just simply be nothing more than a term, as the leads are Xavier and Magneto. It's not a romantic comedy where you have a male and female lead, who are the main two characters.

And in this case, Mystique is (and should be) the "female" lead, even though she's still a supporting player, because she was the female lead AND an integral part of the film this movie is taking off from.

And being that Magneto and Xavier are the two leads, and Mystique has the closest connection to both of them.. well, it's not hard to figure out WHY she'd be the "female" lead.

Well, it's obvious that they are trying to make Mystique the lead. I wouldn't be surprised if Mystique's part in First Class was expanded into what we saw because they secured Jennifer Lawrence.

But there are several flaws and issues with making Mystique the female lead in DoFP. There's no future version of the character in the cast, and the original trilogy version's story arc was concluded in The Last Stand (she was cured - which may not work, obviously - and then betrayed Magneto to the government). And then there are the questions of whether Jennifer Lawrence will want to continue in the role if they bring us another story with the First Class characters, and whether Rebecca Romijn would ever return to the role if the franchise focuses on the original actors and a fixed timeline in the present day.

The bottom line is: Where is Mystique's character going? If she is the female lead in DoFP, then what comes next? We're not likely to see more of Magneto and his brotherhood, they'll probably bring in new villains like Sinister. So where will that leave Mystique after DoFP? The only function of her being a female lead is to see her become a badass, cold-blooded ***** like in the original trilogy - so we already know where her story ends up.

I can't see the logic behind focusing on Mystique because the fixed timeline will bring a new team of X-Men and probably dispense with Magneto (and perhaps even Xavier). So the characters with whom Mystique has greatest connection will be gone and she will have no purpose in future films at all if they move on to Apocalypse, Sinister, etc, etc.

[psylockolussus]

I would be okay with Mystique being the female lead if this is her last movie. I feel like Days of Future Past is the perfect time to say goodbye to the beloved villains like Magneto and Mystique and the leader of the X-Men, Professor X. And with the 8th X-Men film, a new era begins with X-Men facing new villains and without Professor X leading them. Its gonna be real exciting if it happens.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by psylockolussus

I would be okay with Mystique being the female lead if this is her last movie. I feel like Days of Future Past is the perfect time to say goodbye to the beloved villains like Magneto and Mystique and the leader of the X-Men, Professor X. And with the 8th X-Men film, a new era begins with X-Men facing new villains and without Professor X leading them. Its gonna be real exciting if it happens.

This film needs to create momentum for future films and be something the franchise can build from.

Shining a spotlight on Mystique when she most likely won't be around any more after DoFP might not be such a good idea. It could make it seem a dead end like The Last Stand if this film wraps up stories for key characters (Magneto, Xavier, Mystique) rather than opens doors for the films to continue.

[marvelrobbins]

Mystique Is more or less the female lead because It's jennifer Lawrence playing her.

The main goal of Bryan SInger with DOFP Is to create a big ambitous exciting film while also fixing the mess that others have done when he's not Involved.

I really expect this will be last film with prequel elements and last film with Brotherhood.But,I wouldn't be quite so sure to dismiss Xavier remaining In films.

[psylockolussus]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

This film needs to create momentum for future films and be something the franchise can build from.

Shining a spotlight on Mystique when she most likely won't be around any more after DoFP might not be such a good idea. It could make it seem a dead end like The Last Stand if this film wraps up stories for key characters (Magneto, Xavier, Mystique) rather than opens doors for the films to continue.

Thats why they could tease something at the end of the movie, like Jean/Cyke coming back or Apocalypse watching over them.

[SterlingDee]

Originally Posted by JP

With a movie like this, a "female lead" would just simply be nothing more than a term, as the leads are Xavier and Magneto. It's not a romantic comedy where you have a male and female lead, who are the main two characters.

And in this case, Mystique is (and should be) the "female" lead, even though she's still a supporting player, because she was the female lead AND an integral part of the film this movie is taking off from.

And being that Magneto and Xavier are the two leads, and Mystique has the closest connection to both of them.. well, it's not hard to figure out WHY she'd be the "female" lead.

no, I disagree. An action movie will still typically have a female lead even in more than just a "term". Yes, the female lead is not typically the protagonist, but she usually has a more important role than the other female characters in the story.

[SterlingDee]

Originally Posted by NanaT

This movie is also taking of from X-Men the last stand (as Bryan has said repeatedly, that's what 'inbetwequel' means) and Storm was an integral part and a lead in that film.

Totally disagree with you here. Storm was in no way integral to the 2 main storylines in the Last Stand and was by definition a supporting character. That film could easily be rewritten to eliminate Storm (as could X1 and X2) without changing the structure or major plot points of the film. Anyone with a decent understanding of film and film structure can see that. I know you are a big Storm/Halle fan and want to see her get her due on the big screen, but I think exaggerating her importance in any of the films is not going to help that.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by SterlingDee

Totally disagree with you here. Storm was in no way integral to the 2 main storylines in the Last Stand and was by definition a supporting character. That film could easily be rewritten to eliminate Storm (as could X1 and X2) without changing the structure or major plot points of the film. Anyone with a decent understanding of film and film structure can see that. I know you are a big Storm/Halle fan and want to see her get her due on the big screen, but I think exaggerating her importance in any of the films is not going to help that.

Well, that may be true from a narrative/structural viewpoint, but the films would have been weaker and poorer without the presence of Storm.

She provided a dramatic visual action scene at the end of X1 (her tempest against Toad) and without Storm in X2, we would not have had the exciting tornado sequence or the excellent conversation with Nightcrawler (the symmetry of his outer ugliness and inner beauty vs her outer beauty and inner ugliness). She also brought visual excitement to X3 and, despite some mischaracterisation in that story, they at least tried to give her a strong viewpoint and a sense of purpose.

It can't be that difficult to give her some dimension, to show us why she is there, what she is fighting for, what she would think and say about the situation she is in. That's what the writer and director should be doing with all the characters. A good read of the comics would be a starting point, or at least a long conversation with Chris Claremont.

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

Well, it's obvious that they are trying to make Mystique the lead. I wouldn't be surprised if Mystique's part in First Class was expanded into what we saw because they secured Jennifer Lawrence.

I very much doubt it. At the time Lawrence's biggest claim to fame was her turn in a little-seen film and the Oscar nomination that followed. She was a promising young talent but absolutely nothing like where she is these days.

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

The bottom line is: Where is Mystique's character going? If she is the female lead in DoFP, then what comes next? We're not likely to see more of Magneto and his brotherhood, they'll probably bring in new villains like Sinister. So where will that leave Mystique after DoFP? The only function of her being a female lead is to see her become a badass, cold-blooded ***** like in the original trilogy - so we already know where her story ends up.

I find it hard to predict where the franchise will go after DoFP. But at the very least, because the story in DoFP involves time travel and past characters learning about the future, it means that the past in DoFP will not be simply about filling in the blanks between the FC era and the OT era. Changing the past would make significant changes for the future characters, but it might also completely change the course for the past characters as well. So Mystique's story might not be quite as set. For instance, if she happens to learn how easily Magneto drops her some years later, would that change how she feels about their partnership? I'd think so.

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

I can't see the logic behind focusing on Mystique because the fixed timeline will bring a new team of X-Men and probably dispense with Magneto (and perhaps even Xavier). So the characters with whom Mystique has greatest connection will be gone and she will have no purpose in future films at all if they move on to Apocalypse, Sinister, etc, etc.

Well you might as well question the need for DoFP to really explore the relationship between Erik and Charles, according to Singer, if they're going to be gone in the next movie. If this movie is a setup for future movies without Professor X and Magneto, why bother much with them at all?

Maybe this film's purpose is simply to be the biggest X-Men film to date, with a combined cast and a cool cross-generation time travel story. And yeah perhaps a farewell to the Magneto/Professor X dynamic, in a grand style. No matter what happens next, we can at least safely assume that this kind of crossover is not going to happen again, so at least in one sense DoFP will be a one-off.

Plus, while it's possible that by the end of DoFP there will be a new timeline in the future which the future films will pick up, it will not really be a continuation of DoFP because the future in DoFP is essentially a dead end. So it can't really build up to the future films in the same way that X1 build up to X2, say. It's more like setting up a re-run of the same characters in a way.

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

and without Storm in X2, we would not have had the exciting tornado sequence or the excellent conversation with Nightcrawler (the symmetry of his outer ugliness and inner beauty vs her outer beauty and inner ugliness).

Erm while I'm not the biggest fan of Halle Berry's Storm... inner ugliness? Exemplified in X2 by what?

[Double B]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

Erm while I'm not the biggest fan of Halle Berry's Storm... inner ugliness? Exemplified in X2 by what?

The entire point of Storm and Nightcrawler's scene in X2 in the jet?

Kurt is demonic in appearance, but is truly benevolent: full of faith and hope, pitying those that hate and fear mutants because they judge him solely on his appearance.

Storm is stunningly beautiful, but "gave up on pity". She's angry, as he points out. For someone so pretty, she's full of bitterness towards those that fear and hate mutants.

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by Double B

Storm is stunningly beautiful, but "gave up on pity". She's angry, as he points out. For someone so pretty, she's full of bitterness towards those that fear and hate mutants.

But is that necessarily "ugliness"?

Anyway that could well have been an interesting juxtaposition, but I can't think of examples in X2 where Storm's bitterness and anger towards those who hate mutants is actually shown. To have her say it once in a conversation is pretty thin writing IMO.

Plus, she displayed pity towards Kelly in X1 where she stuck around him in his last few minutes. She admitted that she sometimes hated "normal people", but when he asked her why she said that it was because she was afraid of them (if I remember right). Again, I didn't really get any sense of anger or bitterness there.

[X-Maniac]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

I very much doubt it. At the time Lawrence's biggest claim to fame was her turn in a little-seen film and the Oscar nomination that followed. She was a promising young talent but absolutely nothing like where she is these days.

You must be delusional if you don't think Lawrence's Winter's Bone acclaim and Oscar had nothing to do with Mystique's surprising and much elevated role in First Class.

Erm while I'm not the biggest fan of Halle Berry's Storm... inner ugliness? Exemplified in X2 by what?

It's pretty clear what that scene meant and what I meant. While Kurt looks like a demon on the outside, it's Storm who has inner demons (anger, etc). That's the 'ugliness' - emotions that are not attractive or healthy.

Also, regarding your later post, I don't think she showed pity towards Senator Kelly but more a sort of caring compassion in a characterisation that was sort of Earth Mother-ish (an aspect from the comics). Admittedly, it doesn't exactly sit nicely with that X2 scene (which was written later). However, Storm has chosen to become a member of the X-Men, whose role is essentially to preserve Xavier's dream by protecting humanity from the bad mutants. So there are complexities for the screenwriters to resolve.

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

You must be delusional if you don't think Lawrence's Winter's Bone acclaim and Oscar had nothing to do with Mystique's surprising and much elevated role in First Class.

Why would it though? She was hardly on the mainstream radar back then. The movie she was in grossed about $14 million worldwide (according to wikipedia) - IMO hardly a reason for anyone to go out of their way to expand her role. Oscar race that year was all about Natalie Portman and Oscar nomination by itself doesn't necessarily mean a lot. Besides, nominations for Academy Awards 2011 were announced in late January 2011 whereas First Class entered production in August 2010 with principal photography concluding in December (wikipedia again).

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

It's pretty clear what that scene meant and what I meant. While Kurt looks like a demon on the outside, it's Storm who has inner demons (anger, etc). That's the 'ugliness' - emotions that are not attractive or healthy.

I actually completely forgot about the "gave up on pity" line in that conversation. My bad I guess, but then I just never got an impression of Storm being angry or bitter at all. So the "ugliness" comment kinda threw me off.

Originally Posted by X-Maniac

Also, regarding your later post, I don't think she showed pity towards Senator Kelly but more a sort of caring compassion in a characterisation that was sort of Earth Mother-ish (an aspect from the comics).

That Earth Mother-ish aspect was actually one thing that I found totally convincing about Berry's Storm (unlike any attempt to make her more badass or bitter). In the Kelly scene and also in the X2 scene where she shows concern for the trapped kids at the base.

[NanaT]

A good way to contrast the two characters (which would be even more magnified if Rebecca Romijn's Mystique was in this film) is if we see Mystique still friends with Prof X in the 70's and the relationship that she has as his protege x-girl and then cut to the future and have Storm his successor as his protege. Would explain why Mystique was so bitter towards storm in the X-trilogy and like I said it would work better if Rebecca's mystique was in this. But maybe if the entire X-Men of the future travel back to the past or if just the Professor does we can see his more distant relationship towards Mystique whom he knows will turn against him. Maybe even have her meet Storm and have slightly bitter and jealous. A fight between the two would be fun to watch. That's if Mystique has grown to become way more skilled in battle then she was in FC otherwise she'd be obliterated by Storm. Wouldn't be a fun fight.