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Old 05-02-2013, 04:34 PM   #276
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

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Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
Stop dude. Have you been reading the last few pages of this thread? Yeah there are some racist fans. But very few people have a problem with the casting "BECAUSE of his skin color." And for you to say that is just perpetuating this conflict on this thread.

We are having a discussion about how certain adapted characters should appear on screen. It has very little to do with racism and as an above poster said, that "race card" is overused and abused.

EDIT: and I dont mean to single you out. I'm actually getting upset at most of the people on this thread who are just calling people out for being "racists" its SO silly.
Right on. This isn't about race. The characters are white! That's how they were made. Too bad! I'm done with people taking liberties on comic characters to try and nurture this incessant necessity to have ethnic representation equalized. I'm Mexican and I couldn't stand Jessica alba being cast as sue. Worst of all they made her look like a freak in the second movie. If the characters are white they stay white! If they are black they stay black. You want more minorities in a movie? Make one with characters that are already existent as members of that race. End of discussion.

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Old 05-02-2013, 04:37 PM   #277
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Yes. All of this. It's like the "Superman could never be Black in real life" theory I came up with a few years ago.

Superman can be a White Clark Kent and nobody ever realizes he's actually Supes because he looks like an average white guy walking around in corporate America. He puts on a bright blue and red suit with big red "S" on it and red cape, fights aliens, punches missiles, saves the world, puts on suit and glasses, goes have a coffee at Starbucks, the end...

Now imagine a muscular, 6' 3", 225lbs Black guy with the same outfit, flying around catching planes, saving babies and *****, deflecting bullets off of his body... White people would ***** a frigging BRICK!!!! AND he's from another planet?! He couldn't hide behind a suit and glasses! But a White guy could. They're the "standard" of American society.

That's why Hancock made so much sense. He couldn't blend in, didn't know his history, so he was listless, dangerous, and a drunkard.

This is an awesome thread, by the way.
Superman couldn't be black in real life but somehow we manage to have a black president. m'kay.

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Old 05-02-2013, 04:41 PM   #278
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Yes we would've made progress, but it won't happen any time soon. Hollywood can't change the race of fictional characters at a great enough rate or quantity to make up for all the crappy stuff that America has done to minorities. #Truth
Then enlighten us please: exactly at what rate and in what quantity would Hollywood need to 'change the race of fictional characters in order to make up for all the crappy stuff that America has done to minorities'?

If we had only known that changing white comic characters to black would make up for it all the injustices against minorities...

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Old 05-02-2013, 04:53 PM   #279
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Superman couldn't be black in real life but somehow we manage to have a black president. m'kay.

Soooo... Barack Obama is the equivalent of an alien with super-strength, speed, and sun-powered beams coming out of his eyes?

Okay. I'm officially done with life in the Hype threads.

LOL! Oh my God.

OH MY GOD!

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Old 05-02-2013, 04:55 PM   #280
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Then enlighten us please: exactly at what rate and in what quantity would Hollywood need to 'change the race of fictional characters in order to make up for all the crappy stuff that America has done to minorities'?

If we had only known that changing white comic characters to black would make up for it all the injustices against minorities...
That's the point I was making. It can't be done; it was sarcasm. I think the irony was lost on you.

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Old 05-02-2013, 04:56 PM   #281
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

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I don't think there is anything wrong with having a preference for seeing a character protrayed whatever ethnicity, nationality, ect they were in the comics.

I think the problem is some folks get a little over worked up and start posting stuff that can be construed as slightly racist even if that wasn't their intention.
I agree with you.

I'm perfectly fine with MBJ being Johnny Storm and it's not because of his race, but because of the quality of the actor. However, I understand why people are opposed to the idea and I don't think they're racist.

They're comic fans and like any group of fans they're hyper sensitive to the details. Change Superman's underwear or the look of the batmobile and they'll flip a ****ing casket. I get that.

I mean, a lot of fans wanted Hawkeye to wear his classic Hawkeye purple gear in the Avengers movie. That would've looked ****ing terrible! But I get why they wanted it. It's all about creating a movie that's 100% accurate to the comic they love.

I know it's not about race for 99% of the people here, it's about accuracy. It's about putting the image that they have in their mind up on the big screen. And that's perfectly normal and reasonable.

However, I would encourage everyone to think about what they're saying before they say it because...wow...I've read some insane stuff in this thread.

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Old 05-02-2013, 04:58 PM   #282
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

What a fascinating thread. A few notes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HUMANIMAL View Post
you misunderstood.....
Did I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Raven View Post
Well if a man does a screen test with Reed and they have good chemistry, and he beats all the other suitable women for the role of Sue because he is much more faithful to the actual comic character, then why the hell not?
Unfortunately, that's not possible. A big part of who the character is being maternal, and sexy, and having children. A man simply can't do that convincingly to the average audience.

Same with Black Panther, a big part of BP is being an African King from a long line of such. A big part of Luke Cage is being a brotha from the hood. Just like Thor or Captain America, they come from an explicitly and necessarily white story.

My question: if Johnny was black haired, would you have this same reaction?

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Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
I would venture to say that a caucasian actor could be found that would fit the character and be best suited for the role. Hey I would even be fine if they found a biracial actor that fit the role....but in order to square with having a black Johnyy, you will have to have a black Sue. Unless we are going to change even further and say they were adopted by their parents, etc...
This is an interesting point of view. It is common, but I don't believe it is true. Adaptation accuracy is not the primary priority when making a film. The only priority is making a great film, and that means someone whom you work well with, will serve that purpose better even if you have to recolor their hair, or have them put on weight, or say that they're step-siblings instead of blood siblings. This is why all these films are going the Ultimates route rather than the more accurate 616.


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Originally Posted by SpideyFan866 View Post
The thing that's the funniest is that the person who made this casting decision, director Josh Trank, is white.

Not only that, he's an FF fan.
Boom. People feel like it *has* to be PCness or reverse racism or whatever. People really should consider the idea that changing the race of characters who were invented in a whites-only time is a valid creative decision, that can only bode well for the story.

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Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
It has nothing to do with who the actor is or how good he is. It has to do with 80 years of comics that tell me that the team looks one way and casting him another way.
Who's read 80 years of comics? You? Joe Moviegoer?

The only people threatened are people who think 616 is the best and ultimate expression of who these characters are. Fox has never thought that and they've come out pretty well, all things considered.

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Originally Posted by Spider - Man View Post
Nope. It's a double-standard. Plain and simple.
You're confused. Treating two things differently doesn't mean double standard. I buy more tampons for my daughter and more bandaids for my son. That doesn't mean I'm not using one principle: Give my kids what they need - and applying it to both of them equally for different results.

The principle many people apply to superheroes is "Representation." They feel that superheroes should reflect us, and that is why they have similar emotions to us, similar problems, similar jobs. They notice, then, that superheroes don't have similar ethnicities to us. While nearly 40% of people in America are not white. Only 10-20% of superheroes are not white, and the disparity gets even larger when you consider white characters are figured much more prominently and often and respectfully than minority characters. So if I apply the principle of Representation to comics, then changing white characters to blacks supports Representation but changing black characters to white does not.

Now, if you don't believe in representation, that's fine, but it's ignorant to call it a double standard.


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Originally Posted by Obsidian Idea View Post
I don't mind changing the characters race WHEN they're secondary and third tier characters OR they have a popular alternate universe version i.e. Nick Fury. I do not believe in changing well-established characters in ANY comic universe.
It sounds like you do believe in it, because once a popular alt universe thing exists, you support it. So if FF gets popular with a black Johnny Storm...


Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin View Post
two lowly fan's opinions... haha.

Plus he's doing NOTHING right now. COME ON TRANK! Pick him up!
This sentence says a lot about the way we cast things vs how good filmmakers do. We see someone who looks just like the comic book character, but can't even get work and we say 'he's ideal.' And then, when someone who gets the job based on talent, even if they don't quite have the right look we decry the madness until we see the movie and then say "I can't imagine anyone else as the part." Hollywood doesn't get much right, but deprioritizing the comic book look is one thing they have done very well in the past. What's really funny is, 616 will change to match the movie anyway... so who's really the authority? Who's following who?

Are these characters bigger than 1950s America? Do they transcend that? Or are they eternally bound to a white male world?

Great thread. Even if it's just a rumor.

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:10 PM   #283
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

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This sentence says a lot about the way we cast things vs how good filmmakers do. We see someone who looks just like the comic book character, but can't even get work and we say 'he's ideal.' And then, when someone who gets the job based on talent, even if they don't quite have the right look we decry the madness until we see the movie and then say "I can't imagine anyone else as the part." Hollywood doesn't get much right, but deprioritizing the comic book look is one thing they have done very well in the past. What's really funny is, 616 will change to match the movie anyway... so who's really the authority? Who's following who?

Are these characters bigger than 1950s America? Do they transcend that? Or are they eternally bound to a white male world?

Great thread. Even if it's just a rumor.
My lord. If you think just because Hunter Parrish just finished a 7 year run on a hit television show and probably isn't actively searching for work, hes any less of an actor than jo-blow MBJ whose been in 3 low budget films and some B-roles in television series... well I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle.

The two actors have very similar experience. Very similar personalities, wit, charm. They are both attractive, both funny, both good actors (imo) and the only difference is one looks more like the part.

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:10 PM   #284
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Yes @DrCosmic, when and if it happens then I'm cool. I just don't like when they change stuff for the hell of it.

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:18 PM   #285
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

I agree with most that Johnny doesn't need a race change, but all the "let's cast MLK as a white guy" **** I have been hearing from various message boards online....you're starting to make me change my stance just out of spite.

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:20 PM   #286
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic View Post
What a fascinating thread. A few notes:



Did I?



Unfortunately, that's not possible. A big part of who the character is being maternal, and sexy, and having children. A man simply can't do that convincingly to the average audience.

Same with Black Panther, a big part of BP is being an African King from a long line of such. A big part of Luke Cage is being a brotha from the hood. Just like Thor or Captain America, they come from an explicitly and necessarily white story.

My question: if Johnny was black haired, would you have this same reaction?



This is an interesting point of view. It is common, but I don't believe it is true. Adaptation accuracy is not the primary priority when making a film. The only priority is making a great film, and that means someone whom you work well with, will serve that purpose better even if you have to recolor their hair, or have them put on weight, or say that they're step-siblings instead of blood siblings. This is why all these films are going the Ultimates route rather than the more accurate 616.




Boom. People feel like it *has* to be PCness or reverse racism or whatever. People really should consider the idea that changing the race of characters who were invented in a whites-only time is a valid creative decision, that can only bode well for the story.



Who's read 80 years of comics? You? Joe Moviegoer?

The only people threatened are people who think 616 is the best and ultimate expression of who these characters are. Fox has never thought that and they've come out pretty well, all things considered.



You're confused. Treating two things differently doesn't mean double standard. I buy more tampons for my daughter and more bandaids for my son. That doesn't mean I'm not using one principle: Give my kids what they need - and applying it to both of them equally for different results.

The principle many people apply to superheroes is "Representation." They feel that superheroes should reflect us, and that is why they have similar emotions to us, similar problems, similar jobs. They notice, then, that superheroes don't have similar ethnicities to us. While nearly 40% of people in America are not white. Only 10-20% of superheroes are not white, and the disparity gets even larger when you consider white characters are figured much more prominently and often and respectfully than minority characters. So if I apply the principle of Representation to comics, then changing white characters to blacks supports Representation but changing black characters to white does not.

Now, if you don't believe in representation, that's fine, but it's ignorant to call it a double standard.




It sounds like you do believe in it, because once a popular alt universe thing exists, you support it. So if FF gets popular with a black Johnny Storm...




This sentence says a lot about the way we cast things vs how good filmmakers do. We see someone who looks just like the comic book character, but can't even get work and we say 'he's ideal.' And then, when someone who gets the job based on talent, even if they don't quite have the right look we decry the madness until we see the movie and then say "I can't imagine anyone else as the part." Hollywood doesn't get much right, but deprioritizing the comic book look is one thing they have done very well in the past. What's really funny is, 616 will change to match the movie anyway... so who's really the authority? Who's following who?

Are these characters bigger than 1950s America? Do they transcend that? Or are they eternally bound to a white male world?

Great thread. Even if it's just a rumor.

I am a fan of you.

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:21 PM   #287
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

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I agree with most that Johnny doesn't need a race change, but all the "let's cast MLK as a white guy" **** I have been hearing from various message boards online....you're starting to make me change my stance just out of spite.
And I agree that the movie won't suffer by changing Johnny's race. But all these cries of "Because of your opinion you sir, ARE A RACIST BIGOT," are making me want to change my stance out of spite.

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:21 PM   #288
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I agree with most that Johnny doesn't need a race change, but all the "let's cast MLK as a white guy" **** I have been hearing from various message boards online....you're starting to make me change my stance just out of spite.

Right? Because Johnny Storm is a real life person who impacted American history. LOL

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:28 PM   #289
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

Actually, in all honesty, I'm enjoying the passion on this thread. I can't quite understand why people on either side are jumping to the racist conclusion.

But hey, I for one just hope it's a good movie and a respectful adaptation.

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:28 PM   #290
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

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I agree with most that Johnny doesn't need a race change, but all the "let's cast MLK as a white guy" **** I have been hearing from various message boards online....you're starting to make me change my stance just out of spite.
How about Shaft?

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:44 PM   #291
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

I don't think it's racist at all to not want one of your favorite characters who is always a white guy to be changed to a black dude. No matter how well he can play the role, the human torch is a big important character. I want him to be a white dude like he always is in the comics. Lol

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:48 PM   #292
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How about Shaft?
Well, no. Shaft is a lot like Luke Cage in that sense. Makes more sense as a black dude. Not necessarily that he cannot be adapted as a white man, but it just makes less sense.

The best example is still Blade. Or Falcon or War Machine. These are characters that could easily be changed to white men. But, really, why?

I mean. There are so many good actors out there. Thus they should be cast with the aesthetics factor in mind.

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:53 PM   #293
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Should we have more black superheroes? Obviously. However, instead of lazily altering our current heroes perhaps comic writers/artists should create NEW heroes to fit the bill. At what point did we hit a cap on creating new characters?
Just quoting myself from here..."Donald Glover wants to be Spiderman"

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Old 05-02-2013, 06:07 PM   #294
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

I really like Micheal B. Jordan as an actor and in a lot of ways he would fit Johnny Storm. I'd prefer a caucasian actor purely out of accuracy to the source material, but I would not be up in arms about it if MBJ were cast. I understand why some would be upset.

If Johnny ends up black and Sue staying white and it turns out Johnny is adopted, would it change their relational dynamic?

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Old 05-02-2013, 06:11 PM   #295
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If Johnny ends up black and Sue staying white and it turns out Johnny is adopted, would it change their relational dynamic?
Family is family. Why would it change it? That said, it would add elements to it. He could joke, "well you're not really my sister" or "oh, I was talking about my other family" or etc. Is one way I'd see Johnny cracking jokes at. And Johnny's biological parents might or might not be brought up in some way, shape, or form. But, other than that? From what I've witnessed, I wouldn't say my relationship with my sister (both adopted, different families) is any different from other family's.

I can see why people would have difficulty with it. He's black, Sue's white. They're going more for a mixed family I think, having it reflect the times and not be "nuclear." This means Johnny's adopted. It has nothing to do with racism, or I just haven't read that many people's posts rather they are but aren't related.

As a fan, I'm against it - it brings up too many things that I don't think should be in this property. Johnny and Sue should be biological brother and sister. As an adoptee, I'm intrigued by it but that's just due to being biased.

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Old 05-02-2013, 06:12 PM   #296
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Well if a man does a screen test with Reed and they have good chemistry, and he beats all the other suitable women for the role of Sue because he is much more faithful to the actual comic character, then why the hell not?

DrCosmic
"Unfortunately, that's not possible. A big part of who the character is being maternal, and sexy, and having children. A man simply can't do that convincingly to the average audience.
Not possible DrCosmic?

A homosexual incarnation of Sue portrayed by a male actor could easily exhibit qualities of being maternal and protective, attractive and instead of having children they could potentially adopt. Super powered beings could adopt super powered children, that's an interesting idea.

Plus - you have already stated you have no issues with tweaking the story to include adoption.


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Old 05-02-2013, 06:16 PM   #297
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

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Family is family. Why would it change it? That said, it would add elements to it.

I can see why people would have difficulty with it. He's black, Sue's white. This means Johnny's adopted. It has nothing to do with racism, or I just haven't read that many people's posts.

As a fan, I'm against it. Johnny and Sue should be biological brother and sister. As an adoptee, I'm intrigued by it but that's just due to being biased.
I agree. I have a cousin who is adopted and I consider her as much my family/ blood as any other family member.

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Old 05-02-2013, 06:22 PM   #298
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Not possible DrCosmic?

A homosexual incarnation of Sue portrayed by a male actor could easily exhibit qualities of being maternal and protective, attractive and instead of having children they could potentially adopt. Super powered beings could adopt super powered children, that's an interesting idea.

Plus - you have already stated you have no issues with tweaking the story to include adoption.
It's possible. And saying a guy can not display those traits is sexist beliefs. Hell, some gay guys I know are more maternal. Gender is really just a cover and means nothing in the long run other than berries or banana.

HOWEVER, with that said no studio - at this point in time - is going to have a core relationship at the heart of its film be a homosexual one. That would be a huge financial risk. And this is coming from a bi dude. The closest we'll get for a while is going to be 'Young Avengers: the movie.'

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Old 05-02-2013, 06:25 PM   #299
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

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What a fascinating thread. A few notes:



Did I?



well it wasnt about bringing some other characters to this movie but ...just saying they could stop exchanging existing characters and use new ones or existing ones but in their own movies and /or contuinity of marvel universe...

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Old 05-02-2013, 06:37 PM   #300
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Default Re: "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

I understand the aforementioned hyper-sensitivity that Wolfwood outlined. On the matter at hand, I really do not care (my feeling towards Fox and their handling of the Marvel properties are complex.)

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