The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by TheHeatKitchen

Real life has plenty of bullies and terrorists. I like to think he was referring more to a "super villain" personification. We don't have those in the real world. We have rivals governments and philosophies that lead to war. Do you really want a super powered hero fighting North Korea, drug lords and bank robbers? We're talking about action, sci-fi comic book movies here. Iron Man vs Kim Jong Un would be a very short and anti-climactic movie.

Isn't that what every Nolan Batman movie was about? Iron Man is more similar to Batman in that he is a real world character dealing with more real world threats. Almost everything great about Iron Man is Cold War and business related.

We don't have super villains but we do have villains. Real world terrorists would make the Joker and Magneto blush. Just go watch some 9/11 videos. That was a murder plot straight out of a comic book.

[Colossal Spoons]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

The movie is good, regardless of how you feel about the villain. It's one aspect of the film. Everything else about the movie was hilarious, thrilling, clever, and amusing.

I disagree entirely but that's not what I want to draw attention to. You're ok with your first adjective to describe IM3 being hilarious? This wasn't Superhero Movie directed by Marlon Wayans. Every other Marvel movie had jokes, which is to be expected but I'd never call Cap, Avengers, etc "hilarious". Hopefully Marvel doesn't look at the box office numbers and think "Oh people must love the jokes!". If so, I hope they plan on releasing Director's Cuts with 70% less jokes.

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by TheHeatKitchen

It's more like comic book villains are straight out of their evil. However, I wouldn't call them villains. They are villains to us, but we are villains to them. The term "villain" requires a "hero" character to be established. In comic books, that "hero" is established for us. Real life is too complex and littered with philosophies and grey areas. Everyone is a hero to someone and a villain to someone else. Suicide bombers in the Middle East are Islamic heroes, said to be praised and honored in the afterlife. But to us, they're just kamikaze ****heads trying to kill innocent people. Just like the old saying "one man's trash is another man's treasure."

Peaceful human beings are the hero. Monsters that blow up marketplaces are the villains whether it's in Pakistan, Iraq, London, Tokyo, or Boston. Terrorism is a villain to humanity.

[DigificWriter]

This twist might've irked some people, but it's very much something that anyone who's intimately familiar with Joss Whedon's work ought to recognize, because it's exactly the kind of thing he would've thought of.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

Peaceful human beings are the hero. Monsters that blow up marketplaces are the villains whether it's in Pakistan, Iraq, London, Tokyo, or Boston. Terrorism is a villain to humanity.

Subjective my friend depending on your point of view.

[DarthSkywalker]

Originally Posted by jmc

Subjective my friend depending on your point of view.

Too be fair, you could apply that to the films as well.

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by Colossal Spoons

I disagree entirely but that's not what I want to draw attention to. You're ok with your first adjective to describe IM3 being hilarious? This wasn't Superhero Movie directed by Marlon Wayans. Every other Marvel movie had jokes, which is to be expected but I'd never call Cap, Avengers, etc "hilarious". Hopefully Marvel doesn't look at the box office numbers and think "Oh people must love the jokes!". If so, I hope they plan on releasing Director's Cuts with 70% less jokes.

What's wrong with a movie being hilarious? Why does every superhero movie have to be dark or melodrama? I like that Iron Man doesn't take itself too seriously and is often tongue in cheek. It's completely unique. That's why the franchise and character has exploded in popularity. People go to the theater to be entertained and comedy is big part of that. It's the reason why Iron Man 3 made $30 million dollars more in three days than First Class did for it's entire run in the U.S.

And yes, Avengers was hilarious. There is as much comedy in that movie as there was in IM3. Thor was hilarious as well.

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by jmc

Subjective my friend depending on your point of view.

I don't think it really is. Do you think the ordinary guy in the Middle East likes living in fear of religious violence and terrorism? Terrorists are the bad guys everywhere.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

I don't think it really is. Do you think the ordinary guy in the Middle East likes living in fear of religious violence and terrorism? Terrorists are the bad guys everywhere.

To us, not to those who support them.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by DarthSkywalker

Too be fair, you could apply that to the films as well.

Depends on the film of course, but more often than not they're fairly black and white.

[The Overlord]

Here is a good question, why is Mandarin Iron Man's arch nemesis? Is there a reason beyond the fact he is the most reoccurring villain from the Silver Age.

It seems like most of the iconic Iron Man stories have nothing to do with Mandarin: Doomsquest, Tony stark vs. Obadiah Stane, Demon in a Bottle, Extremist, Armor Wars, etc.

I think Mandarin had one good story recently, but overall how how many great Mandarin stories have there been?

This isn't a new problem, writers have been struggling with what to do with Mandarin for a while, David Michelinie, the man who reinvented Iron Man back in the 80s and made Iron Man the character he is today, didn't use Mandarin because he couldn't think of a way to update him. So this was a problem back in the 80s, with the guy who was responsible for making Iron Man such a compelling character.

Also every time Mandarin gets adapted to other media, they try to change him to deal with the fact he is outdated: the 94 cartoon turned him into some white guy named Arnold Brock who was turned green by the rings, the more recent CGI cartoon turned him into a more sympathetic teenage book worm type and the 2007 Iron Man DTV turned him into Sauron from Lord of the Rings.

It seems like Marvel is struggling more with Mandarin then other major Marvel villains, which is why he is not used as constantly. I think its hard for Mandarin to escape his Yellow Peril origins, even the name is kinda problematic, it sounds like something a white guy would look an Asian character to establish he is Asian. Its like naming an American character " Hank Apple Pie Base Ball Player".

Also do Iron Man and Mandarin have a lot of interesting personal chemistry? There doesn't seem to be anything to connect them in their back story, like say Dr. Doom and Reed Richards or Xavier and Magneto, it seems like Mandarin just showed up one day to try and take over the world and Iron Man decided to stop him. Has Mandarin ever done anything to truly hurt Iron Man? Obadiah Stane managed to steal his company and Zeke Stane managed to nearly kill Pepper.

[DarthSkywalker]

Originally Posted by jmc

Depends on the film of course, but more often than not they're fairly black and white.

A film can't tell you how to feel. You can take up any POV you want.

[!Superman!]

I`ve seen the movie today. I liked the movie overall but they turned the Mandarin into a joke... that was sad.

I understand why people are angry about that. He was great at the beginning of the movie, evil and all but then he became a joke.... bad writing right there! they didnt know what to do and made a joke out of him. It was funny though^^ but why mandarin, they could have used these jokes on any other person...

All 3 movies had terrible villians. When i heard the Mandarin is in it, i was like " oh, thats gonna be good, he has all these powers" and then? nothing, joke character... real villians are fire People....WOW

Looks like Robert Downey Jr. is getting bored with Ironman. But i hope he does come back, great actor, he makes every movie great. Without him Marvel is in trouble and they know it that`s why they gonna pay him what he wants.

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Here is a good question, why is Mandarin Iron Man's arch nemesis? Is there a reason beyond the fact he is the most reoccurring villain from the Silver Age.

It seems like most of the iconic Iron Man stories have nothing to do with Mandarin: Doomsquest, Tony stark vs. Obadiah Stane, Demon in a Bottle, Extremist, Armor Wars, etc.

I think Mandarin had one good story recently, but overall how how many great Mandarin stories have there been?

This isn't a new problem, writers have been struggling with what to do with Mandarin for a while, David Michelinie, the man who reinvented Iron Man back in the 80s and made Iron Man the character he is today, didn't use Mandarin because he couldn't think of a way to update him. So this was a problem back in the 80s, with the guy who was responsible for making Iron Man such a compelling character.

Also every time Mandarin gets adapted to other media, they try to change him to deal with the fact he is outdated: the 94 cartoon turned him into some white guy named Arnold Brock who was turned green by the rings, the more recent CGI cartoon turned him into a more sympathetic teenage book worm type and the 2007 Iron Man DTV turned him into Sauron from Lord of the Rings.

It seems like Marvel is struggling more with Mandarin then other major Marvel villains, which is why he is not used as constantly. I think its hard for Mandarin to escape his Yellow Peril origins, even the name is kinda problematic, it sounds like something a white guy would look an Asian character to establish he is Asian. Its like naming an American character " Hank Apple Pie Base Ball Player".

Also do Iron Man and Mandarin have a lot of interesting personal chemistry? There doesn't seem to be anything to connect them in their back story, like say Dr. Doom and Reed Richards or Xavier and Magneto, it seems like Mandarin just showed up one day to try and take over the world and Iron Man decided to stop him. Has Mandarin ever done anything to truly hurt Iron Man? Obadiah Stane managed to steal his company and Zeke Stane managed to nearly kill Pepper.

Well said and I agree.

I have always considered Iron Man's greatest enemy to be Tony Stark. Iron Man shouldn't be judged on it's villains, rather how interesting Tony is. Armor Wars, Demon in a Bottle, and most importantly (at least in my opinion) Civil War.

[Colossal Spoons]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

What's wrong with a movie being hilarious? Why does every superhero movie have to be dark or melodrama? I like that Iron Man doesn't take itself too seriously and is often tongue in cheek. It's completely unique. That's why the franchise and character has exploded in popularity. People go to the theater to be entertained and comedy is big part of that. It's the reason why Iron Man 3 made $30 million dollars more in three days than First Class did for it's entire run in the U.S.

And yes, Avengers was hilarious. There is as much comedy in that movie as there was in IM3. Thor was hilarious as well.

I definitely didn't want dark melodrama, it's why I HATE Nolan's Batman movies. However, at no point other than when Tony's house got wrecked did I feel like anybody was seriously in danger. Even the final fight with Killian, he was just jumping from suit to suit. Just didn't have that sense of "epic boss fight" that I've come to expect from superhero movies. Sorry again to bring up more DC stuff as this isn't the place but I really think MoS is going to do boss fights justice when Supes finally throws down with Zod.

Ok, well then we just have a semantic disagreement regarding what's hilarious. I can dig it

[BillPardy]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

Peaceful human beings are the hero. Monsters that blow up marketplaces are the villains whether it's in Pakistan, Iraq, London, Tokyo, or Boston. Terrorism is a villain to humanity.

You're right, peaceful and compliant, thats the way of straight shooter.

America, built on a foundation of complacency.

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by !Superman!

no wonder Robert Downey Jr. doesnt want to make another ironman movie. But i hope he does, great actor, he makes every movie great. Without him Marvel is in trouble and they know it that`s why they gonna pay him what he wants.

Do you really think he cares about super villains? He is probably tired of wasting the prime of his career playing characters in two franchises. Bale and Tobey did the same thing. Raimi, Nolan, Burton, Favreau, and Donner all moved on too. Joss Whedon will eventually after a couple more Avenger movies.

RDJ doesn't really have much more to do with the role. People love him and he is the best part of every movie. A great actor shouldn't be tied down to two characters. The most important thing is him appearing in a couple more Avengers movies.

Also, I don't think Marvel is in trouble. Everything they touch is gold. Thor 2 and Captain 2 will be successes. Guardians and Ant Man are the wild cards. The whole thing just makes Marvel exciting because they are willing to try different things. This is what seperates them from DC, which is completely top heavy. We are getting Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant Man movies while they struggle to bring Superman,Watchmen, and Green Lantern to the big screen.

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by BillPardy

You're right, peaceful and compliant, thats the way of straight shooter.

America, built on a foundation of complacency.

There is a difference of being compliant and actively supporting murder of non-combatants. That is what terrorism is. It's not a good thing in any country.

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by Colossal Spoons

I definitely didn't want dark melodrama, it's why I HATE Nolan's Batman movies. However, at no point other than when Tony's house got wrecked did I feel like anybody was seriously in danger. Even the final fight with Killian, he was just jumping from suit to suit. Just didn't have that sense of "epic boss fight" that I've come to expect from superhero movies. Sorry again to bring up more DC stuff as this isn't the place but I really think MoS is going to do boss fights justice when Supes finally throws down with Zod.

Ok, well then we just have a semantic disagreement regarding what's hilarious. I can dig it

Why do you have to feel that somebody is in danger? You know they are never to kill off a superhero or let the villain win in any of these movies. You already know the outcomes. That's the problem with this genre, it's predictable. And that's why the rest of the stuff like comedy and characters is so important.

I thought the final fight was a pretty epic boss fight. Truth be told, there haven't been many of them in superhero movies. I can't think of any in any Batman or X-Men movie. Spider-Man is really the only one that comes close. Doc Ock vs. Spider-Man is still the best, in my opinion.

Humor is subjective I guess but I think most people find these movies to be funny and amusing. There really isn't anything like an Iron Man movie in the genre and that's why they are special. Enjoy them while they last is what I'm saying.

[Doc Samson]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Here is a good question, why is Mandarin Iron Man's arch nemesis? Is there a reason beyond the fact he is the most reoccurring villain from the Silver Age.

I believe that most arch enemies in comics (or in general) usually are some sort of evil doppelganger to the hero/protagonist. I don't think it's as much about what they do as it is the contrast they represent ideologically, embodying the yin/yang dynamic.

In the same way Luthor represents business & big industry as the antithesis to Superman's good ol' boy American values, or how the Joker's crazed anarchy is a stark contrast to Batman's rigid code of justice, The Mandarin's use of magic in tandem with technology shows a different spin on Stark and how he uses technology & science. Not to mention his appearance (at least originally) of ancient, mystical, Oriental regalia stood in contrast to Stark's modern, American sophistication.

On top of that though, making The Mandarin actually Killian doesn't really make him all that different from Obadiah Stane or Justin Hammer in this movie universe. Just another disgruntled genius trying to get revenge on Tony for some type of perceived slight. I think a more faithful adaptation of The Mandarin would have been more interesting.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by Doc Samson

I believe that most arch enemies in comics (or in general) usually are some sort of evil doppelganger to the hero/protagonist. I don't think it's as much about what they do as it is the contrast they represent ideologically, embodying the yin/yang dynamic.

In the same way Luthor represents business & big industry as the antithesis to Superman's good ol' boy American values, or how the Joker's crazed anarchy is a stark contrast to Batman's rigid code of justice, The Mandarin's use of magic in tandem with technology shows a different spin on Stark and how he uses technology & science. Not to mention his appearance (at least originally) of ancient, mystical, Oriental regalia stood in contrast to Stark's modern, American sophistication.

Okay, but it does seem like Lex Luthor and Joker have a larger array of good stories behind them then Mandarin does, that's the big point here. Joker and Lex Luthor seem to have better motives and better connections to the heroes then Iron Man and Mandarin, Batman created Joker, Lex Luthor has Metropolis' favorite son before Superman showed up. Mandarin wanted to take over the world for some reason one day and Iron Man decided to stop him, that is not nearly as personal or interesting then any of the other characters mentioned.

Plus ancient, mystical, Oriental regalia vs. modern, American sophistication doesn't work anymore, it might worked in the 30s, but now it seems like an old, out dated and possibly racist. That's the problem, if you went for that contrast you might as well kiss the Asian market good bye and deal with a ton of complaints at home. That is not good business and it would be fool hardy to think Marvel or Disney should do that. It seems you are giving reasons not use Mandarin with that description, it fits the "Yellow Peril" villain almost completely. Its far easier to use Joker and Lex Luthor in a modern context then it is Mandarin, otherwise the writers wouldn't be struggling to use the character as much as they have in the past.

Also magic vs. technology is an okay contrast, but it is doesn't seem as meaty as the other contrasts you mentioned. Its pretty thin on its own and Mandarin just hasn't got the same level of writing as those other villains you mentioned to make it work. Plus misuse of technology is a constant theme in the Iron Man comics and movies, if Mandarin is just a magical character, he doesn't really fit in with that theme, does he? The fact that Mandarin has not really fit in with a lot of the themes that were developed in the 80s has kinda locked him out of many of the more iconic Iron man stories. If there were not problems with the Mandarin character, wouldn't David Michelinie have used him back in the 80s?

Originally Posted by Doc Samson

On top of that though, making The Mandarin actually Killian doesn't really make him all that different from Obadiah Stane or Justin Hammer in this movie universe. Just another disgruntled genius trying to get revenge on Tony for some type of perceived slight. I think a more faithful adaptation of The Mandarin would have been more interesting.

But how would you adapt Mandarin without making him stepped in ancient, mystical, Oriental regalia, because that is what holds him back and that is what would the thing that wouldn't work for a modern audience. Its not the 1930s, you can't have Mandarin be a Fu Manchu character and expect modern audiences to like it.

Besides if Shane Black didn't like the Mandarin, would the studio forcing him to use the Mandarin have been a good idea? It would have been Venom in Spider-Man 3 all over again.

[Olan]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

Governments almost always create villains though. We played a big role in the creation of Osama bin Laden & modern terrorism by supporting the mujahideen against the Soviets in Afghanistan. We have supported and propped up various dictators and bad guys around the globe. So has every other major power---Russia, China, UK, France, etc.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is a long way from 'creating' the villain. When the US propped up OBL against the Soviets the Soviets were in The Evil Empire. But like Frankenstein the monster we created turned on the creator. But all of that is a far cry from creating a bad guy with smoke and mirrors for some clandestine purpose.

[Doc Samson]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Okay, but it does seem like Lex Luthor and Joker have a larger array of good stories behind them then Mandarin does, that's the big point here. Joker and Lex Luthor seem to have better motives and better connections to the heroes then Iron Man and Mandarin, Batman created Joker, Lex Luthor has Metropolis' favorite son before Superman showed up. Mandarin wanted to take over the world for some reason one day and Iron Man decided to stop him, that is not nearly as personal or interesting then any of the other characters mentioned.

Plus ancient, mystical, Oriental regalia vs. modern, American sophistication doesn't work anymore, it might worked in the 30s, but now it seems like an old, out dated and possibly racist. That's the problem, if you went for that contrast you might as well kiss the Asian market good bye and deal with a ton of complaints at home. That is not good business and it would be fool hardy to think Marvel or Disney should do that. It seems you are giving reasons not use Mandarin with that description, it fits the "Yellow Peril" villain almost completely. Its far easier to use Joker and Lex Luthor in a modern context then it is Mandarin, otherwise the writers wouldn't be struggling to use the character as much as they have in the past.

Also magic vs. technology is an okay contrast, but it is doesn't seem as meaty as the other contrasts you mentioned. Its pretty thin on its own and Mandarin just hasn't got the same level of writing as those other villains you mentioned to make it work. Plus misuse of technology is a constant theme in the Iron Man comics and movies, if Mandarin is just a magical character, he doesn't really fit in with that theme, does he? The fact that Mandarin has not really fit in with a lot of the themes that were developed in the 80s has kinda locked him out of many of the more iconic Iron man stories. If there were not problems with the Mandarin character, wouldn't David Michelinie have used him back in the 80s?

Well no one is confusing Mandarin as having the same stature that Lex Luthor or the Joker enjoy, that's for sure. But in terms of IM, I think Mandarin does share enough of that doppelganger quality to make him an interesting foil. As far as racism goes though, almost every character created during the 60-70s is somewhat racist. Black Panther, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, you name it, there's probably some sort of racial undertone present. If Red Skull is still acceptable, period piece or not, then why not Mandarin? But speaking of the undertones, why then, would Killian create & then adopt a name of such Orient descent in this new contemporary vision of the character? They could've just called him something else entirely and all problems are solved.

Also Killian's motivations for issues with Stark are no more solid or meaty. He was slighted at a party? That's it? And what's the deal with Air Force One and attacking the President? Because the VP wants him to or he wants to use the VP as a puppet? Isn't his beef supposed to be with Stark entirely? He becomes a super powered entity from Extremis, what threat would the military or the government be to him? His whole thing is for Tony to help with Extremis, but say Pepper accepted his offer early in the film, then are we to believe the Ten Rings organization and everything he's been planning, presumably since IM1, was for naught?

Originally Posted by The Overlord

But how would you adapt Mandarin without making him stepped in ancient, mystical, Oriental regalia, because that is what holds him back and that is what would the thing that wouldn't work for a modern audience. Its not the 1930s, you can't have Mandarin be a Fu Manchu character and expect modern audiences to like it.

That's the thing, they were well on their way to reinventing him for present times. Re-imagining him as a terrorist of indiscriminate origin, while still being reminiscent of his comic appearance somewhat, was genius. And the crux of his dichotomy with Stark would still be intact.

[BillPardy]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

There is a difference of being compliant and actively supporting murder of non-combatants. That is what terrorism is. It's not a good thing in any country.

*nodds* Like Hiroshima...

The point is, its purely subjective what terrorism is. Plenty of innocent non-combatants have been killed in Iraqi and Afghanistan, which probably makes the coalition seem an awful lot like terrorist. And thus villains and heroes have become blurred, yadda, yadda.

[TheHeatKitchen]

Originally Posted by ElMariachi

Isn't that what every Nolan Batman movie was about? Iron Man is more similar to Batman in that he is a real world character dealing with more real world threats. Almost everything great about Iron Man is Cold War and business related.

We don't have super villains but we do have villains. Real world terrorists would make the Joker and Magneto blush. Just go watch some 9/11 videos. That was a murder plot straight out of a comic book.

Batman isn't a super powered hero. He's just a billionaire with detective skills and a ton of gadgets. Same could be said for Iron Man, except his arc reactor is a sustainable source of energy that powers a suit which gives him super human traits, like flights, strength and energy blasts.

No one is arguing terrorists aren't horrible people. They are villains to us democratic, non Islamic folk that don't support their beliefs on killing "infidels." However, that is a VERY different subject than comic book villains. bin Laden doesn't equal MODOK.