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Old 05-03-2013, 08:40 PM   #326
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Something new to my mind came up that I don't like about BR, it's that after Penguin turned on Catwoman...well she didn't bother to go after him at all.
Not necessarily. She was at his "mayoral speech", but Batman exposed Penguin via the recordings me had made from the Batmobile debacle the night before. We've no real clue as to what Selina intended to do to Penguin after that speech, it's just that Batman got to him first.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:41 PM   #327
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Something new to my mind came up that I don't like about BR, it's that after Penguin turned on Catwoman...well she didn't bother to go after him at all.
I always thought she was planning to in the scene where he is giving the speech that Batman eventually sabotages. She's watching him so intently, but then Batman exposes Penguin's true nature to Gotham, and the crowd turns on him, she just quietly leaves. So maybe she felt his villainy being exposed and him being rejected by Gotham was a justified punishment for him.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:47 PM   #328
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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I always thought she was planning to in the scene where he is giving the speech that Batman eventually sabotages. She's watching him so intently, but then Batman exposes Penguin's true nature to Gotham, and the crowd turns on him, she just quietly leaves. So maybe she felt his villainy being exposed and him being rejected by Gotham was a justified punishment for him.
I think that if it was the case that there would have been more of a build up to it. I love the part where Batman punches his monitor in the batmobile after he takes that tampering device off.

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Old 05-04-2013, 01:09 AM   #329
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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I think that if it was the case that there would have been more of a build up to it.
Not really. There's nothing that said she needed to go after him. Penguin was a diversion to Selina's real revenge goal - to get Shreck.

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Old 05-08-2013, 02:44 PM   #330
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:54 PM   #331
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Are people really still discussing the plot of this movie? LOL there is no plot or any sense.

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Old 05-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #332
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Shauner, while your rather shrill and emotive attacks on Burton have an acceptable place in the Burton v Nolan thread, here they could be construed as simple trolling.

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Old 05-08-2013, 04:01 PM   #333
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Are people really still discussing the plot of this movie? LOL there is no plot or any sense.

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I would argue your pathetic statement, but then again...



... And neither are your opinions.

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Old 05-08-2013, 04:03 PM   #334
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Awesome.

I can't remember but was that ever shown in the extras for BR?

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Old 05-08-2013, 04:22 PM   #335
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Screw that, I adore Batman Returns. It subtly challenges your love of the hero. Batman starts off in the beginning of the movie worse than he's ever been, consumed by vengeance. Then we get what is perhaps a similar or even a mirrored metamorphosis of Bruce Wayne into Batman through the character Selina Kyle becoming Catwoman. They meet and fall for each other, but ultimately they cannot be together. Selina gets in too deep and doesn't want to get out, but she is responsible for bringing Bruce out of his state to a more peaceful consciousness. In other words, Selina is what makes Batman return. There's your ****ing plot.

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Old 05-08-2013, 04:23 PM   #336
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Screw that, I adore Batman Returns. It subtly challenges your love of the hero. Batman starts off in the beginning of the movie worse than he's ever been, consumed by vengeance. Then we get what is perhaps a similar or even a mirrored metamorphosis of Bruce Wayne into Batman through the character Selina Kyle becoming Catwoman. They meet and fall for each other, but ultimately they cannot be together. Selina gets in too deep and doesn't want to get out, but she is responsible for bringing Bruce out of his state to a more peaceful consciousness. In other words, Selina is what makes Batman return. There's your ****ing plot.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:54 PM   #337
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Not trolling, just a question.

And that "plot" is incorrect because Bruce is at peace at the end? I don't think so. I never saw that movie. Yeah him and Selina fall for each other. Right, he asks her to move in to his mansion after having a few meets with her in person...after knowing that she's Catwoman and she tried to basically kill him. Yeah, good story.

I don't diss everything about this movie. Loved it when I was a kid. Still think it's cool visually. But I don't see a plot anywhere besides a Batman who plays third fiddle and kills people with a smile. A Catwoman who is just a nutjob, trying to kill every guy she sees, and a Penguin who...nevermind.

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Old 05-08-2013, 07:15 PM   #338
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

OK. To fully examine Bruce's state in Batman Returns, we must look at who he is in Batman. In the beginning of the film, Bruce hosts a large casino night for charity in his mansion. There could be hundreds of people there, including big figures in Gotham City: Harvey Dent, Commissioner Gordon, the mayor. Bruce is very gracious; six more cases of champagne and you know Bruce Wayne doesn't buy the cheap stuff, along with allowing some reporter he just met a grant to have anything in the house. He even has a seat as a guest of honor at a Harvey Dent press conference. Bruce is outgoing, inviting, and generous. Fast forward through his revelation that the murderer of his parents is the man terrorizing Gotham. This sends Batman on his first (to be fair, known) killing spree. He's using machine guns, rockets, throws a man down a bell tower, and sends the Joker down to his death.

In Batman Returns, there's no gala, no rubbing elbows with Gotham's rich. No one in his home but he and Alfred. His introduction in Batman Returns portrays Bruce as a man who does nothing but be Batman. He sits and waits and when that signal shines bright through his window, he leaps out of his chair because finally he can do something he finds worthwhile. In his first action scene, he commits (attempted?) murder by arson and doesn't make any real reaction to it. That's really unsettling for a character who is traditionally portrayed as a heroic individual.
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When he meets Shreck at the end, he says, "Shut up, you're going to jail." When has this Batman ever cared about sending criminals to jail? He has beaten and killed so many men freely to this point; simple goons of the Joker and the Penguin. Shreck is a man who opposed Bruce Wayne directly and allied himself with a monster bent on killing children. He's got an opportunity to kill Shreck, but he doesn't. Batman's blood lust has ceased.

Through his interactions with Selina and coming to know who she is at night, he changes. He invites her to his cavernous home, symbolic of him letting down his many walls that he has built up within himself and has reinforced by the time of the events of Batman Returns. He wants her there when it is clear he hasn't wanted anything out of life other than to be Batman for some time now. During their final scene together, Bruce begs Selina to come home with him so that they can fill in the massive holes in each others' hearts. "We're the same." Bruce finally looks forward to a future that doesn't revolve around Batman. She rejects their possible courtship and their final moment together is coupled with an explosion, a scene directly lifted from Bride of Frankenstein.

The final scene of the film, Bruce is sitting in the back of the car with Alfred driving at night. He left Batman back in his cave. He is visually upset over the disappearance and possible death of Selina, but we know that he is better off now than he was at the beginning of the film. Selina reminded Bruce of the humanity in him and showed how that fragile humanity in the two of them can be lost so easily. If he cannot have her, then she will serve as a reminder of what happens when you drown in the waters of vengeance.

I know am not alone when I say that I think Batman Returns has some beautiful things going on in it. I find it insulting to the film and to myself as a fan for someone to discredit and disregard those elements entirely. You say there is no plot? Yes there is. You just don't have the luxury of Michael Caine explaining it all. If you don't like Batman Returns, that's fine, but don't come into this thread made for us fans just to slander it.

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Old 05-08-2013, 07:22 PM   #339
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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You just don't have the luxury of Michael Caine explaining it all.





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Awesome.

I can't remember but was that ever shown in the extras for BR?
Nope... it wasn't.

It was an awesome find for me today.

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Old 05-08-2013, 09:34 PM   #340
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OK. To fully examine Bruce's state in Batman Returns, we must look at who he is in Batman. In the beginning of the film, Bruce hosts a large casino night for charity in his mansion. There could be hundreds of people there, including big figures in Gotham City: Harvey Dent, Commissioner Gordon, the mayor. Bruce is very gracious; six more cases of champagne and you know Bruce Wayne doesn't buy the cheap stuff, along with allowing some reporter he just met a grant to have anything in the house. He even has a seat as a guest of honor at a Harvey Dent press conference. Bruce is outgoing, inviting, and generous. Fast forward through his revelation that the murderer of his parents is the man terrorizing Gotham. This sends Batman on his first (to be fair, known) killing spree. He's using machine guns, rockets, throws a man down a bell tower, and sends the Joker down to his death.

In Batman Returns, there's no gala, no rubbing elbows with Gotham's rich. No one in his home but he and Alfred. His introduction in Batman Returns portrays Bruce as a man who does nothing but be Batman. He sits and waits and when that signal shines bright through his window, he leaps out of his chair because finally he can do something he finds worthwhile. In his first action scene, he commits (attempted?) murder by arson and doesn't make any real reaction to it. That's really unsettling for a character who is traditionally portrayed as a heroic individual.
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


When he meets Shreck at the end, he says, "Shut up, you're going to jail." When has this Batman ever cared about sending criminals to jail? He has beaten and killed so many men freely to this point; simple goons of the Joker and the Penguin. Shreck is a man who opposed Bruce Wayne directly and allied himself with a monster bent on killing children. He's got an opportunity to kill Shreck, but he doesn't. Batman's blood lust has ceased.

Through his interactions with Selina and coming to know who she is at night, he changes. He invites her to his cavernous home, symbolic of him letting down his many walls that he has built up within himself and has reinforced by the time of the events of Batman Returns. He wants her there when it is clear he hasn't wanted anything out of life other than to be Batman for some time now. During their final scene together, Bruce begs Selina to come home with him so that they can fill in the massive holes in each others' hearts. "We're the same." Bruce finally looks forward to a future that doesn't revolve around Batman. She rejects their possible courtship and their final moment together is coupled with an explosion, a scene directly lifted from Bride of Frankenstein.

The final scene of the film, Bruce is sitting in the back of the car with Alfred driving at night. He left Batman back in his cave. He is visually upset over the disappearance and possible death of Selina, but we know that he is better off now than he was at the beginning of the film. Selina reminded Bruce of the humanity in him and showed how that fragile humanity in the two of them can be lost so easily. If he cannot have her, then she will serve as a reminder of what happens when you drown in the waters of vengeance.

I know am not alone when I say that I think Batman Returns has some beautiful things going on in it. I find it insulting to the film and to myself as a fan for someone to discredit and disregard those elements entirely. You say there is no plot? Yes there is. You just don't have the luxury of Michael Caine explaining it all. If you don't like Batman Returns, that's fine, but don't come into this thread made for us fans just to slander it.




Returns certainly doesn't feature my ideal form of Batman, but there is definitely a lot going on with the character. In particular, the first time we see him, waiting for his call, is one of my favorite moments in the character's entire history. Though it has plenty of plot problems, ultimately Returns is a beautiful, haunting tragedy that engrosses me almost every time I watch it. And for that reason above all it's my favorite of the old Batman films

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Old 05-09-2013, 01:33 AM   #341
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Screw that, I adore Batman Returns. It subtly challenges your love of the hero. Batman starts off in the beginning of the movie worse than he's ever been, consumed by vengeance. Then we get what is perhaps a similar or even a mirrored metamorphosis of Bruce Wayne into Batman through the character Selina Kyle becoming Catwoman. They meet and fall for each other, but ultimately they cannot be together. Selina gets in too deep and doesn't want to get out, but she is responsible for bringing Bruce out of his state to a more peaceful consciousness. In other words, Selina is what makes Batman return. There's your ****ing plot.
Yes, Selina did make Batman Return, cause Keaton Batman didn't start off as a crime fighting killer in his career. I get this feeling that if Keaton Batman wasn't really into Selina that he wouldn't have been bothered by the fact that she wants to kill Max Shreck. I don't know how Returns challenges one fondness of Keaton Batman, before the events of Batman Returns he was already a killer, we clearly saw him finally go into deliberate killing mode in Batman after it dawned upon him that Joker killed his parents. I think it was dumb for Batman to apologize to Catwoman cause he beat her up, she struck him and wouldn't stop.


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Old 05-09-2013, 01:50 AM   #342
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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Are people really still discussing the plot of this movie? LOL there is no plot or any sense.

Visual eye candy for kids who like dark & weird stuff.
1. Do you think the movie makes no sense at all?

2. What is your definition of plot?

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Old 05-09-2013, 03:19 AM   #343
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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I don't diss everything about this movie. Loved it when I was a kid. Still think it's cool visually. But I don't see a plot anywhere besides a Batman who plays third fiddle and kills people with a smile. A Catwoman who is just a nutjob, trying to kill every guy she sees, and a Penguin who...nevermind.
You just described the plot, albeit your own very glib version. What you're doing is being willfully obtuse.

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Old 05-09-2013, 10:49 AM   #344
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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I don't know how Returns challenges one fondness of Keaton Batman, before the events of Batman Returns he was already a killer, we clearly saw him finally go into deliberate killing mode in Batman after it dawned upon him that Joker killed his parents.
Well, objectively, should a man with high powered assault weapons be allowed to murder whomever he sees fit? Batman is sort of a "loose cannon" this go around; he's extremely dangerous to others and himself. It's clear that the Batman persona has consumed him. When he goes to talk to Shreck at their meeting, he's essentially doing more Batman work just in a Bruce Wayne suit. To quote American Psycho, "My nightly blood lust has overflowed into my days."

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Old 05-09-2013, 06:26 PM   #345
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You just described the plot, albeit your own very glib version. What you're doing is being willfully obtuse.
Dude, I was thinking the same thing, also a movie can't be made without a plot.

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Old 05-09-2013, 08:09 PM   #346
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

Every movie has a plot whether we like it, agree with it, or not.

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Old 05-10-2013, 04:55 AM   #347
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

I don't think 'Ultraviolet' had a plot, actually.

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Old 05-10-2013, 09:11 PM   #348
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Well, objectively, should a man with high powered assault weapons be allowed to murder whomever he sees fit? Batman is sort of a "loose cannon" this go around; he's extremely dangerous to others and himself. It's clear that the Batman persona has consumed him. When he goes to talk to Shreck at their meeting, he's essentially doing more Batman work just in a Bruce Wayne suit. To quote American Psycho, "My nightly blood lust has overflowed into my days."
How is Batman hurting himself? The police don't care about the fact that he kills scum if need be, and second of all, it's Joker's fault that turned him into a killer. The Joker made him dislike criminals more than ever.


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Old 05-10-2013, 09:16 PM   #349
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

If you can't see that Bruce Wayne is worse off than he was before, then there's nothing I can do.

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Old 05-10-2013, 09:51 PM   #350
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Default Re: The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

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You just don't have the luxury of Michael Caine explaining it all.

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