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Old 05-11-2013, 06:16 AM   #126
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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You don't get it do you? It's not about him shooting a guy, it's about how he shot the guy and made the president piss his pants, as well as showing the people that he was the one in control. The brutal extreme supermen were Mandarin's before they were killian, what would change would be the guy, and if anything his actions would be even more brutal, since like Binladen he would probably have a lot of fanatic followers besides the people he saved, while the best Killua had besides the ambutee extremis soldiers were some hired guns, one even surrendered himself.
....What does that even mean...? The "brutal extreme supermen" ALWAYS belonged to Killian. He's the one who healed them and gave them their superpowers. And, incidentally, he was also The Mandarin. So what were you trying to say....that they worked for Trevor Slattery or something? You're not making much sense.

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Old 05-11-2013, 01:51 PM   #127
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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The Mandarin as a concept just does not work in modern times, it's ****ing stupid.
Don't get me wrong Mr. Dent, I actually liked the twist in IM3, and I'm a fan of the comics since I was a kid. As others have said, they incorporated elements of comic Mandarin into both Kingsley when his character is "acting" and Pierce, which was a interesting and refreshing move.

With that being said, this whole, Comic Mandarin wouldn't work in modern times(which a number of other people have said, not just you) is a load of horse ****.

They fixed the biggest problem, don't cast an asian actor and definitely don't follow the racist caricature with the buck teeth. They cast someone white in the role, that was all they needed to do. Whether he had tech rings or not wasn't all that important. Yeah it would have been cool to see them, but I don't think it's a deal breaker.

Basically it's like when Fox didn't think the yellow and blue X-men costumes would work. Vaughn and his costume designer/s basically slapped them in the face with X-men First Class. I liked the traditional costumes in that movie, he made it work. You know how? He didn't have his head up his ass like whoever at Fox was against Spandex. Hmm, how do we fix that? Oh yeah, just don't use Spandex and maybe tone down the brightness of the colors, or the blue at least.

Basically I really enjoyed IM3, liked it a lot more than part 2, and the twist was damn funny.

My *****ing isn't because of the twist, it's because of the constant talk about how it's impossible to bring a more comic accurate Mandarin to the big screen.

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Old 05-11-2013, 01:58 PM   #128
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

The true villain of the Iron Man 3 seems to be the Waaaaahndarin, creeping up at a message board near you.

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Old 05-11-2013, 02:46 PM   #129
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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The true villain of the Iron Man 3 seems to be the Waaaaahndarin, creeping up at a message board near you.
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Old 05-11-2013, 03:14 PM   #130
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Comic readers are a small fraction of the people buying movie tickets.
I don't buy Ironman comic books but I did enjoy the cartoon from back in the 90's so I'm sure that plenty of other movie goers had and idea of who the Mandarin was. So does that make us fanboys as well?

And why is this "fanboy" term so common these days when writing people off anyway?

Is knowledge and appreciation of a comic book character a curse now?


It just sounds to me like a more classic take on the Mandarin would've cost more. So Marvel went the cheap route.

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Old 05-11-2013, 03:45 PM   #131
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Yes. Yes, it will.
Because Thanos is a cosmic character, and comes from a subgenre of comics where magic and spectacularly advanced alien technology are par for the course.

Iron Man comes from a subgenre of comics where it isn't. Yes, a character like Thanos *and* comic-book Mandarin fits right in with an Avengers movie, since the Avengers historically fight the over-the-top, uber-powered, cosmic villains with outlandish powersets and backstories. The Iron Man comics and movies are more concerned with "down-to-earth" nuts-and-bolts sci-fi, villains who are based on fairly credible modern technology, corporate warfare, and contemporary spy and political thrillers. That's not the milieu where a Fu Manchu with super-powered alien rings he nabbed from a dead dragon in a crashed flying saucer belongs.



No, it turned him from "intimidating threat" to "intimidating threat with incredible superpowers, an army of similarly super-powered mercenaries, a vast amount of wealth and resources, and a genius intellect capable of providing Tony Stark with an enemy who is worthy of him."

The Mandarin is Killian. Period. Everybody who watched the movie (and plenty who haven't) knows that by now, including you. So any discussion of "zomg they raped the Mandarin" HAS to be predicated on discussion of KILLIAN as The Mandarin, NOT TREVOR SLATTERY as The Mandarin. Any argument that tries to make Trevor Slattery out to be The Mandarin is null and void and flat wrong.

And again: you know that. Don't play coy.
So you either like Killian as the Mandarin or you don't. I personally don't so bringing that up to shut up fans who didn't like this twist in the movie still wont change their minds about it.

Some of you are forgetting that they make an effort to show the rings in the trailer thus misleading people who knew at least part of the characters origin. It was a blatant slap in the face.

So to people who ask me how was the film I say this film is a rental at best. And when I asked my son how he felt about it he said, "It cool, I just didn't like the villain."

I hope that GOTG, Thor and Cap are handled much better otherwise I'm done.

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Old 05-11-2013, 03:46 PM   #132
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Not fickle, just fed up. Many fans suffered through all the crap from 1998 when Marvel's films really started all the way till now. Marvel Studios in-house films were a lifeline to me at a point when I was ready to just give up on the genre entirely in film. And I liked/loved everything they did up until IM3 to varying degrees. But now they have shown themselves to be as misguided as Sony/Fox ever were. I'm not 100% giving up after this one stinker but my enthusiasm is now on the decline. More films like this and it could evaporate entirely as it was close to doing in 2007.
This is the definition of fickle. If you liked/loved most of their pre-IM3 stuff, one story decision shouldn't destroy your confidence in the studio. Fox and Sony had a string of misfires (Sony with Ghost Rider and Spider-Man 3 and Fox with Fantastic Four, X3, Wolverine, and for the most part Daredevil with only X2 as a hit in that span of 2003-2009).

It's pretty sad all that goodwill Marvel Studios built up from Phase 1 can go away so easy with one decision. This backlash reminds me of the backlash with Sam Raimi after Spider-Man 3 and (to a much lesser degree) Nolan for TDKR.

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A poorly executed one. Do you honestly think if it was a well executed twist then people would be blowing up about it?
I think people are more angry that they didn't get their Mandarin from the comics than the execution of the twist. The execution of the actual twist wasn't bad, but Killian's character definitely could have used more work.

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Old 05-11-2013, 03:50 PM   #133
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Don't get me wrong Mr. Dent, I actually liked the twist in IM3, and I'm a fan of the comics since I was a kid. As others have said, they incorporated elements of comic Mandarin into both Kingsley when his character is "acting" and Pierce, which was a interesting and refreshing move.

With that being said, this whole, Comic Mandarin wouldn't work in modern times(which a number of other people have said, not just you) is a load of horse ****.

They fixed the biggest problem, don't cast an asian actor and definitely don't follow the racist caricature with the buck teeth. They cast someone white in the role, that was all they needed to do. Whether he had tech rings or not wasn't all that important. Yeah it would have been cool to see them, but I don't think it's a deal breaker.

Basically it's like when Fox didn't think the yellow and blue X-men costumes would work. Vaughn and his costume designer/s basically slapped them in the face with X-men First Class. I liked the traditional costumes in that movie, he made it work. You know how? He didn't have his head up his ass like whoever at Fox was against Spandex. Hmm, how do we fix that? Oh yeah, just don't use Spandex and maybe tone down the brightness of the colors, or the blue at least.

Basically I really enjoyed IM3, liked it a lot more than part 2, and the twist was damn funny.

My *****ing isn't because of the twist, it's because of the constant talk about how it's impossible to bring a more comic accurate Mandarin to the big screen.
Yeah what the hell is that? Or even worse is, "It can't ever be done in any way so they shouldn't even try..."

C'mon, we as comic book fans should be better than that.

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Old 05-11-2013, 04:31 PM   #134
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In the clip you posted, Mandarin was menacing but all he did was shoot a man in the head.* Killian and his Extremis soldiers committed far more carnage than that, some of it with their bare hands. Their powers and ruthlessness were far more scary and appalling than the Kingsley character because the damage they inflicted on others was portrayed very realistically. Killian was brutally using his test subjects, actually vaporizing people, sending them off to kill civilians and even attacking Air Force One remorselessly. And he shot people on top of all that. He may have had a different demeanor from Kingsley/Mandarin but he was no less menacing for that.

Another point: All through the film Tony Stark himself dealt with his foes quite brutally. There is this constant refrain that Marvel films are somehow less adult than some other superhero fare, but in truth their approach to violence has always been far more realistic than their competitors' movies. Considering the punishment Tony meted out to Brandt, Savin, Killian and assorted thugs it's clear that Marvel and its heroes pull no punches. Were Black and Pearce really aiming to please only kids, the body count would have been a lot lower and the language far less salty.

* Yeah, I know how the twist played out in that scene but, you know, spoilers.
Its more about how the Mandarin was mind screwing that guy before he had him shot in the head. Talking about his good, strong name and all that.

Old Mandarin could've easily posed a threat to Tony; he would be in control of the Extremis soldiers and wielding Extremis just as Killian was. I don't see the problem. Also, costs would be moot if you collapsed Killian's character and merged it with Kingsley's. One less actor to pay and all.

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Old 05-11-2013, 04:41 PM   #135
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....What does that even mean...? The "brutal extreme supermen" ALWAYS belonged to Killian. He's the one who healed them and gave them their superpowers. And, incidentally, he was also The Mandarin. So what were you trying to say....that they worked for Trevor Slattery or something? You're not making much sense.
Before Killian was revealed as the true Mandarin we thought Kingsley had an extremis army too.
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Its more about how the Mandarin was mind screwing that guy before he had him shot in the head. Talking about his good, strong name and all that.

Old Mandarin could've easily posed a threat to Tony; he would be in control of the Extremis soldiers and wielding Extremis just as Killian was. I don't see the problem. Also, costs would be moot if you collapsed Killian's character and merged it with Kingsley's. One less actor to pay and all.
Basically that

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Old 05-11-2013, 05:02 PM   #136
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You don't get it do you? It's not about him shooting a guy, it's about how he shot the guy and made the president piss his pants, as well as showing the people that he was the one in control. The brutal extreme supermen were Mandarin's before they were killian, what would change would be the guy, and if anything his actions would be even more brutal, since like Binladen he would probably have a lot of fanatic followers besides the people he saved, while the best Killua had besides the ambutee extremis soldiers were some hired guns, one even surrendered himself.
It's pretty clear that you don't get it. I can't answer you point for point because you failed to make any coherent arguments. "...like Binladen he would probably have a lot of fanatic followers besides the people he saved, while the best Killua had besides the ambutee extremis soldiers were some hired guns, one even surrendered himself." What does that even mean?

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Old 05-11-2013, 05:05 PM   #137
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Yeah what the hell is that? Or even worse is, "It can't ever be done in any way so they shouldn't even try..."

C'mon, we as comic book fans should be better than that.
People think that if they can't imagine it, then no one else can, therefore it is impossible.

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Old 05-11-2013, 05:12 PM   #138
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I think people are more angry that they didn't get their Mandarin from the comics than the execution of the twist. The execution of the actual twist wasn't bad, but Killian's character definitely could have used more work.
They are angry because they felt mislead which is down to the execution. You admit that Killian needed work, do you not think if his story had been handled properly with the twist actually having some emotional meaning that people would be as annoyed? There's no pay off with the twist, it's there as a trick and not much else. The great irony in all this is that people who are ok with how things turned out calling complainers out as being not open to change yet the entire build up toward the film showed us something completely different to the character in the comics, and yet no one batted an eyelid prior to its release, in fact most people were excited of what they were seeing from what I could tell. So how exactly are more people angry that they didn't get the comic character when frankly everyone going in was more than aware we wouldn't be getting that character?

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Old 05-11-2013, 05:16 PM   #139
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Don't get me wrong Mr. Dent, I actually liked the twist in IM3, and I'm a fan of the comics since I was a kid. As others have said, they incorporated elements of comic Mandarin into both Kingsley when his character is "acting" and Pierce, which was a interesting and refreshing move.

With that being said, this whole, Comic Mandarin wouldn't work in modern times(which a number of other people have said, not just you) is a load of horse ****.

They fixed the biggest problem, don't cast an asian actor and definitely don't follow the racist caricature with the buck teeth. They cast someone white in the role, that was all they needed to do. Whether he had tech rings or not wasn't all that important. Yeah it would have been cool to see them, but I don't think it's a deal breaker.

Basically it's like when Fox didn't think the yellow and blue X-men costumes would work. Vaughn and his costume designer/s basically slapped them in the face with X-men First Class. I liked the traditional costumes in that movie, he made it work. You know how? He didn't have his head up his ass like whoever at Fox was against Spandex. Hmm, how do we fix that? Oh yeah, just don't use Spandex and maybe tone down the brightness of the colors, or the blue at least.

Basically I really enjoyed IM3, liked it a lot more than part 2, and the twist was damn funny.

My *****ing isn't because of the twist, it's because of the constant talk about how it's impossible to bring a more comic accurate Mandarin to the big screen.
I will agree to that too. I do not think a comic book accurate Mandarin would have been too far out of the question at all. Black didn't like the Mandarin, and I agree it was a bit of a dick move for Black to respond that way.

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I don't buy Ironman comic books but I did enjoy the cartoon from back in the 90's so I'm sure that plenty of other movie goers had and idea of who the Mandarin was. So does that make us fanboys as well?

And why is this "fanboy" term so common these days when writing people off anyway?

Is knowledge and appreciation of a comic book character a curse now?


It just sounds to me like a more classic take on the Mandarin would've cost more. So Marvel went the cheap route.
Very few people knew who the Mandarin is. Let's be honest. In terms of Marvel villains, we're not talking about Green Goblin, Dr. Doom, Magneto Venom, or even lesser known villains like Loki and Red Skull (Pre-MCU).

Also, the 90s Iron Man tv series was a poorly rated series that doesn't have as huge a following as Spider-Man or X-Men.

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Old 05-11-2013, 05:26 PM   #140
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It's pretty clear that you don't get it. I can't answer you point for point because you failed to make any coherent arguments. "...like Binladen he would probably have a lot of fanatic followers besides the people he saved, while the best Killua had besides the ambutee extremis soldiers were some hired guns, one even surrendered himself." What does that even mean?
Actually, since the problem is that i can't properly write here then you're the one that doesn't get it,
Sorry, English is not my primary language, let me rephrase it:
The decoy Mandarin was a sort of Binladen terrorist, and from what the film showed he had followers in some countries, the same way Al-qaeda does, having blind followers like those is a great asset since most are willing to sacrifice themselves for "the mission".

Killian however was just a rich business guy, the people he has working for him are hired mercenaries and the extremis warriors, the later will probably follow him more blindly because of what he did for them, however they're not that many. The mercenaries are doing what they were paid for, and don't particularly care for Killian, one of them even surrendered himself when Tony freed himself.

And when i say that the decoy mandarin had an army of Extremis goons i'm not talking about how the movie ended up being, but about how it could have been had Killian not been the true Mandarin but just an associate to the terrorist.

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Old 05-11-2013, 05:36 PM   #141
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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They are angry because they felt mislead which is down to the execution. You admit that Killian needed work, do you not think if his story had been handled properly with the twist actually having some emotional meaning that people would be as annoyed? There's no pay off with the twist, it's there as a trick and not much else. The great irony in all this is that people who are ok with how things turned out calling complainers out as being not open to change yet the entire build up toward the film showed us something completely different to the character in the comics, and yet no one batted an eyelid prior to its release, in fact most people were excited of what they were seeing from what I could tell. So how exactly are more people angry that they didn't get the comic character when frankly everyone going in was more than aware we wouldn't be getting that character?
Yes to the bolded. I felt he was a fine villain whose backstory and character motivation could have used more work. But the problem I had lies more with character than plot. A better and more precise motivation would have made the catharsis of the plot twist better, but I do not think it was poorly handled it worked for me in the story.

Yes, you were mislead. That's what a red herring is. A plot twist mislead you most of that way.

Fans are angry because they still held out hope that he had the rings, and felt that the Mandarin, despite being Chinese would have other resemblances to the comics, such as the robes and the appearance. Killian's Mandarin still had the personality and meglomaniacal goals. People also forget that he created the face for terrorism in Kingsley's character.

I felt that the twist worked for other reasons that I have stated in other threads, but to make it short I felt that it worked because Killian in many ways was Tony's opposite not only in terms of being a business rival, but also his psychological opponent. Those motivations could have been strengthened,

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be mad, but I find it very extreme to say that Marvel Studios is like Fox or Sony after one radical plot twist that deviates from the comcs, especially when it seems like many of the people in this thread like the phase 1 movies. Even if you dislike it, I still believe that it's way too early to be flipping the panic switch.

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Old 05-11-2013, 05:49 PM   #142
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:01 PM   #143
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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I gotta say, Killian was the MCU version of the Mandarin, that's true, the problem is this, the promised decoy Mandarin was a more interesting enemy than Killian, and that's the problem when you do these types of twists. I don't understand the critics saying he did an interesting for a comic book villain, know why? Because i've seen this type of twist in countless comic books.
this is it exactly. a lot that are defending the twist are missing the point of the majority outside of the moaning fanboys are trying to make

its not the fact of the twist of the mandarin its the fact that you had a great dark threatening character with great screen presence and instead decided to go with a bland boring out for revenge science geek.

i've said it before no one was asking for the whole fu man chu aww soooo character but kingsley was looking to be this great dark evil overlord that has been pulling the string for years and if you have seen him in other films where he's that bad guy eg sexy beast he could have been amazing if they went the full role.


IM3 is really like TDKR a decent well shot film that is fun but falls apart from a story stand point the more you think about.


as for the original post dont talk out of your arse. just because one movie with a director who had an agenda (his hatred of the mandarin has been wel documented) didnt live up to the hype doesn't mean the studio as a whole is now completely screwed up.

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Old 05-11-2013, 06:46 PM   #144
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this is it exactly. a lot that are defending the twist are missing the point of the majority outside of the moaning fanboys are trying to make

its not the fact of the twist of the mandarin its the fact that you had a great dark threatening character with great screen presence and instead decided to go with a bland boring out for revenge science geek.

i've said it before no one was asking for the whole fu man chu aww soooo character but kingsley was looking to be this great dark evil overlord that has been pulling the string for years and if you have seen him in other films where he's that bad guy eg sexy beast he could have been amazing if they went the full role.


IM3 is really like TDKR a decent well shot film that is fun but falls apart from a story stand point the more you think about.
How is Killian not as menacing as the "fake Mandarin?" You guys keep trying to gloss over the fact that everything Trevor did as "The Mandarin" was all Killians idea, his plan.

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Old 05-11-2013, 06:54 PM   #145
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

^ exactly.

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Old 05-11-2013, 07:00 PM   #146
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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How is Killian not as menacing as the "fake Mandarin?" You guys keep trying to gloss over the fact that everything Trevor did as "The Mandarin" was all Killians idea, his plan.
to me he wasn't thats how i feel.

it may have been killians plan but honestly the character came across as the stereotypical angry geek scientist at the start that vows vengeance, because he was ignored by his idol. hell all that was missing from the scene on the roof was him screaming "i'll get you stark this i swear" or some other usual cliche, and after his change its still seems like the whole thing is just to get back at stark because he blew him off years ago.

as other have said if he had more time put into the character and the story developed AIM much better then this may not have been, but truthfully he seemed like such a background character i didnt even remember his name until i looked it up on imdb when i got home.

kingsley mandarin had a presence in the room, he may not have been physically imposing but when he spoke and acted it seemed like if he lost his temper **** would hit the fan, again i keep referring back to his other roles like sexy beast

like i've said i am not an iron man comic fan (he's like superman to me wouldnt pick up his solo books but like seeing him in team books) so its not to do with a love of comics or the source material, i just feel that one take on the villain(Kingsley) had a much more of an impact before the twist than killian did before and after.

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Old 05-11-2013, 07:00 PM   #147
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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This is the definition of fickle. If you liked/loved most of their pre-IM3 stuff, one story decision shouldn't destroy your confidence in the studio. Fox and Sony had a string of misfires (Sony with Ghost Rider and Spider-Man 3 and Fox with Fantastic Four, X3, Wolverine, and for the most part Daredevil with only X2 as a hit in that span of 2003-2009).

It's pretty sad all that goodwill Marvel Studios built up from Phase 1 can go away so easy with one decision. This backlash reminds me of the backlash with Sam Raimi after Spider-Man 3 and (to a much lesser degree) Nolan for TDKR.
Did you just gloss over the part where I said

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I'm not 100% giving up after this one stinker but my enthusiasm is now on the decline
I'm not giving up, yet. But the will to put up with crap like this isn't unlimited. At some point the camel's back will break. So I hope they don't continue with this kind of thing. I have hope that they won't.

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Old 05-11-2013, 07:00 PM   #148
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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How is Killian not as menacing as the "fake Mandarin?" You guys keep trying to gloss over the fact that everything Trevor did as "The Mandarin" was all Killians idea, his plan.
That's not what makes a villain menacing. What makes a villain menacing is his looks, the way he acts, and the way he prevents himself.

Galactus in FF: Rise of the Silver Surfer is a lot more of a threat than TDK's Joker because he devours planets while TDK's Joker never left Gotham. But that doesn't make Galactus a scarier or more menacing or scarier villain to the audience because the way they did him was stupid and laughable.

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Old 05-11-2013, 07:06 PM   #149
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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That's not what makes a villain menacing. What makes a villain menacing is his looks, the way he acts, and the way he prevents himself.

Galactus in FF: Rise of the Silver Surfer is a lot more of a threat than TDK's Joker because he devours planets while TDK's Joker never left Gotham. But that doesn't make Galactus a scarier or more menacing or scarier villain to the audience because the way they did him was stupid and laughable.

I'd argue that the audience has to believe the villain can carry out whatever it is that makes him/her threatening. Which is why for me the Joker in TDK was as big a dud a cloud Galactus or pseudo-Mandarin.

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Old 05-11-2013, 07:48 PM   #150
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

The biggest problem I have with people who dislike the "Mandarin Twist" is their questioning of the motivation by Shane Black and Marvel Studios for why they did it.

To me, it makes perfect sense why Shane Black did it. He disliked the character, and made a CREATIVE DECISION to change that character to fit within the context of a movie he wanted to make. You're welcome to disagree with Shane Black's decision. And absolutely, he took advantage of fans' expectations regarding who or what the Mandarin was.

But to even bring Marvel Studios into this discussion is lame. How clear could it have possibly been that this decision came from Shane Black, and not Marvel saying "Oh, this won't work." If anything, I'm utterly amazed that Marvel didn't force Shane Black to make the Ben Kingsley Mandarin the primary villain, alien rings and all. After all, that's an easy sell, especially to kids. That would make for some very easily digestible action sequences, to cap off an easily digestible, straightforward movie.

But they didn't do that. They trusted the creative talent they chose to deliver what they knew how to deliver. That is the very antithesis of the Sony/Fox mindset, which is to bully their directors into delivering villains, characters, and action sequences that they can easily sell.

So, you think Shane Black was ill-suited to direct this film? Fine. You think the film took the franchise in the wrong direction? Fine. You hate the film version of the Mandarin? Great. All perfectly acceptable positions to have. But to question the motivation of Marvel Studios, and that they actually did this to "play it safe" has no basis in reality whatsoever. Delivering a ham-fisted, alien magic-wielding maniac who wants to take over the world is the very definition of a "safe villain," which is why he was such a common villain for Iron Man in the first place. To actually have that villain be a red herring was anything but safe, and the fact it is so hotly debated is prime evidence of that.

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