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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
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Old 05-11-2013, 01:58 PM   #376
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I'd say it's indirectly addressing the upset fans and confused viewers of the change in actors. Tony's at a Senate hearing about whether or not the Iron Man suit is a weapon and should be handed over to the government. Of course Rhodey, who served as a sort of liaison between the military and Stark would be there. There is no reason Tony should be surprised he makes an appearance, and given that, no reason that Rhodey should have to tell him "It's me, deal with it". However, the audience has every reason to be surprised and/or upset, and that is who the line is for.

That being said, this is far too much energy expended over what was initially a joke about the Mandarin's rank among comic book villains on film, due to his ability to leave people on screen and off in disbelief over his identity.
That's the key word. It needs to be directly addressing the audience in order for it to break the fourth wall. Rhodey needs to literally be aware of the fact that he is a fictional character in a movie, which he isn't, in order for it to be breaking the fourth wall.

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Old 05-11-2013, 02:03 PM   #377
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The fourth wall can be broken when the audience is directly or indirectly acknowledged. Both of those quotes acknowledge the audience, or specific people in it.
Your quote from Rhodey doesn't necessarily do anything with the fourth wall. Rather, it is Rhodey demanding the respect Tony owes him.

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Old 05-11-2013, 02:18 PM   #378
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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That's the key word. It needs to be directly addressing the audience in order for it to break the fourth wall. Rhodey needs to literally be aware of the fact that he is a fictional character in a movie, which he isn't, in order for it to be breaking the fourth wall.
Yep. It's an in-joke. Emphasis on in. It's a line that still works within the context of the movie.

The whole point of breaking the fourth wall is that it shatters any "in." It has a character openly acknowledge he is in a movie/play/comic or what have you and address the audience.

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Old 05-11-2013, 06:23 PM   #379
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I never thought I'd see a page and a half dedicated to defining what breaking the fourth wall is. Jesus. For the record - Breaking the fourth wall is when a character speaks directly to us like in Ferris Beuller or Alfie, the character is aware he's being watched. No-one in any IM film is aware they are in a film, so the fourth wall is well and truly in tact, in fact there isn't even a hole in it. End of story I'm afraid.

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Old 05-11-2013, 07:16 PM   #380
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Don't tell us. Tell the other guy who's just not getting it.

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Old 05-11-2013, 08:01 PM   #381
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Soooo.......Mandarin huh?

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Old 05-11-2013, 08:50 PM   #382
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Soooo.......Mandarin huh?
Not really. lol I think everyone has said what they have to say. Several times over.

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:00 AM   #383
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

lol, of page after page of people trying to educate someone on something as simple as the fourth wall. Hilarious.

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Old 05-12-2013, 01:30 AM   #384
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I didn't know much about mandarin so i kind of shrugged at it but i can't see how anyone who was a fan of the actual character could have approved? I'm just thinking how i'd react if they pulled that stunt with one of the main batman rogues?

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Old 05-12-2013, 01:47 AM   #385
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

They are two entirely different franchises.

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Old 05-12-2013, 01:52 AM   #386
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I'm just thinking how i'd react if they pulled that stunt with one of the main batman rogues?
They did, with Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins.

And yes, Ra's is one of Batman's main rogues. He's not as popular as Joker, Two-Face, or Riddler with general audiences, but he's still a main rogue.

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Old 05-12-2013, 02:02 AM   #387
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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They did, with Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins.

And yes, Ra's is one of Batman's main rogues. He's not as popular as Joker, Two-Face, or Riddler with general audiences, but he's still a main rogue.
That was Ra's al ghul though. To my knowledge the "real mandarin" was nothing like his comic counterpart.

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Old 05-12-2013, 02:14 AM   #388
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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They did, with Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins.

And yes, Ra's is one of Batman's main rogues. He's not as popular as Joker, Two-Face, or Riddler with general audiences, but he's still a main rogue.
But it makes sense with Ra's...for a character whose whole thing is dying and resurrecting...a realistic take on that power set would be a fake figure head who dies and is replaced.

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Old 05-12-2013, 02:17 AM   #389
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Yep. It's an in-joke. Emphasis on in. It's a line that still works within the context of the movie.

The whole point of breaking the fourth wall is that it shatters any "in." It has a character openly acknowledge he is in a movie/play/comic or what have you and address the audience.
Yeah, I guess you could say they were knocking on the fourth wall with that one, but not breaking it.

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They did, with Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins.

And yes, Ra's is one of Batman's main rogues. He's not as popular as Joker, Two-Face, or Riddler with general audiences, but he's still a main rogue.
I think fans were more forgiving of it because the end result was Liam Neeson playing Ra's al Ghul, which is kind of awesome and fitting. It was more of an "Oh I should've seen that coming!" sort of thing. I mean he was sporting the goatee the whole movie.

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Old 05-12-2013, 08:35 AM   #390
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I didn't know much about mandarin so i kind of shrugged at it but i can't see how anyone who was a fan of the actual character could have approved? I'm just thinking how i'd react if they pulled that stunt with one of the main batman rogues?
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That was Ra's al ghul though. To my knowledge the "real mandarin" was nothing like his comic counterpart.
There was definitely a shortage of "fans of the actual character (Mandarin)" before this movie came out. Now all of a sudden, Mandarin apparently gains this huge outraged comic-book fanbase.....go figure.

And here's the thing: none of these overnight Fandarin bandwagoners can point to how, exactly, the comic-book character could have been portrayed authentically....because Mandarin has been altered and changed so many times over the decades that there is no one definitive look or backstory or powerset to the character. And that's pretty much what Shane Black was getting at in this movie. In fact, between Kingsley and Pearce, the "two Mandarins" pay homage to every iteration of the character from the 1960s until present. What we got was an amalgamation of all the different Mandarins, presented in a unique way that is both true to the character(s), and refreshingly new and contemporary.

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Old 05-12-2013, 08:47 AM   #391
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But it makes sense with Ra's...for a character whose whole thing is dying and resurrecting...a realistic take on that power set would be a fake figure head who dies and is replaced.
Also, we never got to know much about "Ra's." Ducard got the development while training Bruce. So the twist doesn't hurt the character of Ra's at all, considering he was actually being developed prior to the reveal.

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Old 05-12-2013, 08:57 AM   #392
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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There was definitely a shortage of "fans of the actual character (Mandarin)" before this movie came out. Now all of a sudden, Mandarin apparently gains this huge outraged comic-book fanbase.....go figure.

And here's the thing: none of these overnight Fandarin bandwagoners can point to how, exactly, the comic-book character could have been portrayed authentically....because Mandarin has been altered and changed so many times over the decades that there is no one definitive look or backstory or powerset to the character. And that's pretty much what Shane Black was getting at in this movie. In fact, between Kingsley and Pearce, the "two Mandarins" pay homage to every iteration of the character from the 1960s until present. What we got was an amalgamation of all the different Mandarins, presented in a unique way that is both true to the character(s), and refreshingly new and contemporary.

Definitive look(in the comics) is that he's at least asian. Definitive powers reside in his rings. The rings are the Mandarin. When you see them, you think of the Mandarin. That's definitive.

He has both of those. And I don't know about "overnight bandwagoner", but I provided how I'd get the Mandarin to work when you asked me for my take a few weeks ago. And others have provided logical ways for the Mandarin with rings to actually work in an IM movie.

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Old 05-12-2013, 11:15 AM   #393
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Definitive look(in the comics) is that he's at least asian. Definitive powers reside in his rings. The rings are the Mandarin. When you see them, you think of the Mandarin. That's definitive.

He has both of those. And I don't know about "overnight bandwagoner", but I provided how I'd get the Mandarin to work when you asked me for my take a few weeks ago. And others have provided logical ways for the Mandarin with rings to actually work in an IM movie.
I know you want Zhang Tong, Cosmic. But that's part of what I said in the post above --- we get an amalgamation of all the different versions of comic-book Mandarin. Killian is the modern version(s) of the character, including business-suit Zhang Tong.

The only thing they really change up is the Rings, which are given a new meaning as a terrorist organization instead of a bunch of space alien rings. But they trade the power of the Rings for the power of Extremis, which is equally as powerful and menacing, and blends nicely into the Extremis plot without having to explain an over-the-top, jarring backstory about dead dragons in flying saucers and alien magic rings.

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:10 PM   #394
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I know you want Zhang Tong, Cosmic. But that's part of what I said in the post above --- we get an amalgamation of all the different versions of comic-book Mandarin. Killian is the modern version(s) of the character, including business-suit Zhang Tong.

The only thing they really change up is the Rings, which are given a new meaning as a terrorist organization instead of a bunch of space alien rings. But they trade the power of the Rings for the power of Extremis, which is equally as powerful and menacing, and blends nicely into the Extremis plot without having to explain an over-the-top, jarring backstory about dead dragons in flying saucers and alien magic rings.

Honestly I've made my peace with the twist, and I find the reveal scene hilarious. While I would have rathered a Mandarin with the rings, Killian is a badass villain so I'm happy with him regardless.

Also, I find the name "Killian" more threatening than "Mandarin".

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:26 PM   #395
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I think fans were more forgiving of it because the end result was Liam Neeson playing Ra's al Ghul, which is kind of awesome and fitting. It was more of an "Oh I should've seen that coming!" sort of thing. I mean he was sporting the goatee the whole movie.
Having only BTAS to go on I guessed that Neeson was Ra's early in the film mostly on that look alone. As soon as Crane said who he was working for I knew Neeson would return as the real Ra's. Honestly, it wasn't very hard to guess.

Whether Mandarin's twist would be harder or easier I can't say because I knew it was going to happen before I even saw the movie.

But the Batman Begins one works while the IM3 one doesn't.

Hell, you could say that for the uninitiated the reveal that Stane was the villain in IM1 was a twist. Not sure how well it worked for them since I can't speak as one of them. I knew he'd be a villain from the moment Bridges was cast.

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:38 PM   #396
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Definitive powers reside in his rings. The rings are the Mandarin..
Disagree. The Mandarin's powers are that he is a brilliant schemer, mad scientist, and superhuman martial artist.

The rings are not his powers, and in fact they are kind of shark-jump-prone, even in the comics. They are kind of like venom for Bane. Bane started out as this genius strategist(could beat Ra's Al Ghul at Chess), martial artist, and athlete. Venom was just a tool that boosted him from having almost superhuman strength to slightly superhuman strength. Venom was nice, it was nifty, but it was way less than 10% of what made Bane dangerous. Yet later writers made Bane into the Hulk, a ****tard who completely revolved around venom. Bane jumped the shark because of writers focusing too much on venom.

The rings are a lot like that. You look in early stories, and the rings kind of suck. The most impressive thing they can do is kind of parlor tricks like create a bunch of illusions of Mandarin, which Mandarin uses as a distraction to karate-chop Iron Man because Iron Man doesn't know who to dodge. The karate-chop is the bread-n-butter of his personal attacks. And scheming and mad science are what he's about more than personal attacks anyway.

In fact, I'd note that what both Mandarin and Bane share is that serious portrayals of them dropped the most shark-jump-prone weapon in their arsenal. Movie Bane has no venom, so his strategy, martial-arts, and athleticism get to shine through. Movie Mandarin has no rings, so his scheming, mad science, and superhuman martial arts abilities shine through.

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:47 PM   #397
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Disagree. The Mandarin's powers are that he is a brilliant schemer, mad scientist, and superhuman martial artist.

The rings are not his powers, and in fact they are kind of shark-jump-prone, even in the comics. They are kind of like venom for Bane. Bane started out as this genius strategist(could beat Ra's Al Ghul at Chess), martial artist, and athlete. Venom was just a tool that boosted him from having almost superhuman strength to slightly superhuman strength. Venom was nice, it was nifty, but it was way less than 10% of what made Bane dangerous. Yet later writers made Bane into the Hulk, a ****tard who completely revolved around venom. Bane jumped the shark because of writers focusing too much on venom.

The rings are a lot like that. You look in early stories, and the rings kind of suck. The most impressive thing they can do is kind of parlor tricks like create a bunch of illusions of Mandarin, which Mandarin uses as a distraction to karate-chop Iron Man because Iron Man doesn't know who to dodge. The karate-chop is the bread-n-butter of his personal attacks. And scheming and mad science are what he's about more than personal attacks anyway.

In fact, I'd note that what both Mandarin and Bane share is that serious portrayals of them dropped the most shark-jump-prone weapon in their arsenal. Movie Bane has no venom, so his strategy, martial-arts, and athleticism get to shine through. Movie Mandarin has no rings, so his scheming, mad science, and superhuman martial arts abilities shine through.
Does Mandarin also have the talents you mentioned? Yes. Is he most famous for his ten rings? Yes. The rings are a definitive power/weapon of the Mandarin. There are loads of brilliant schemers, mad scientists, and superhuman martial artists in the comics, but the Mandarin is the only guy with the ten rings.

For example, I could ask you who comes to mind when I say brilliant schemer and you could say a lot of characters. Same goes for Mad scientist and superhuman martial artist.

But when I say ten rings, you immediately think of the Mandarin. I'm not saying his ten rings define his character, I'm saying that are they are synonymous when I think of the Mandarin. Reason being is he's the only character to have ten rings of power like that.

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Old 05-12-2013, 12:48 PM   #398
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Disagree. The Mandarin's powers are that he is a brilliant schemer, mad scientist, and superhuman martial artist.

The rings are not his powers, and in fact they are kind of shark-jump-prone, even in the comics. They are kind of like venom for Bane. Bane started out as this genius strategist(could beat Ra's Al Ghul at Chess), martial artist, and athlete. Venom was just a tool that boosted him from having almost superhuman strength to slightly superhuman strength. Venom was nice, it was nifty, but it was way less than 10% of what made Bane dangerous. Yet later writers made Bane into the Hulk, a ****tard who completely revolved around venom. Bane jumped the shark because of writers focusing too much on venom.

The rings are a lot like that. You look in early stories, and the rings kind of suck. The most impressive thing they can do is kind of parlor tricks like create a bunch of illusions of Mandarin, which Mandarin uses as a distraction to karate-chop Iron Man because Iron Man doesn't know who to dodge. The karate-chop is the bread-n-butter of his personal attacks. And scheming and mad science are what he's about more than personal attacks anyway.

In fact, I'd note that what both Mandarin and Bane share is that serious portrayals of them dropped the most shark-jump-prone weapon in their arsenal. Movie Bane has no venom, so his strategy, martial-arts, and athleticism get to shine through. Movie Mandarin has no rings, so his scheming, mad science, and superhuman martial arts abilities shine through.
I was with you until the very last sentence. Movie Mandarin had no power rings, but it wasn't the same as with Bane. you can attest to two theories here in this discussion:

1) Movie Mandarin wasn't really the Mandarin, had NO SPECIAL CHARACTERISTICS and was just an actor

or

2) The Mandarin was an amalgamation of multiple characters with a different set of powers provided by the Extremis that included health regeneration and fire-breathing.

If you go with #2, you are right that you get to see the master strategist, scientist and hand-to-hand combatant, but you can't say he didn't have any special abilities, like Bane in TDKR.


Other than that, I think your concept is right.

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Old 05-13-2013, 02:21 AM   #399
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Also, we never got to know much about "Ra's." Ducard got the development while training Bruce. So the twist doesn't hurt the character of Ra's at all, considering he was actually being developed prior to the reveal.
We didn't get to know much of Mandarin, but got to know a fair bit about Aldrich.

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Old 05-13-2013, 03:18 AM   #400
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I was surprised how Kingsley describes Downey's life before he landed the role of Tony Stark in a roundabout way. Other than that, it was a wasted opportunity. Killian too, 'cause outside of some good fights, that was just Guy Pearce being handsome and spouting vaguely portentious lines.

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