The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 145

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

[georgec]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

But those LoS guys are okay with him using his electromagnetic thingie to shut off the lights and throwing flashbangs at Bane's face?

Maybe if Bane had said "let's fight man to man, no weapons, no tricks. My men are watching," that would be one thing. Instead we see Bats selectively use his arsenal when we know he has other stuff available that could help him.

They know Bane can handle Batman's flashbangs. I could imagine Bane talking with his men beforehand, telling them not to interfere so long as Batman's tools have no legitimate effect on Bane or the environment. They know Batman will try to use the dark to his advantage - that's why Bane is ready for it and calls Batman out on it.

But Batman knew that trying more powerful tools that gave him an unfair advantage would have invited Bane's men to start shooting.

[Tacit Ronin]

I take it you don't like The Dark Knight Returns having a crippled Bruce Wayne who slaps on some mechanical bits to his arms and knees and is as good as new?

He was monologue-ing through the entire comic about how decrepit and debilitating his body was and cursing how much better the young cops had it. It wasn't tossed aside instantly like TDKR's knee injury was.

[Snow Queen]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

He was monologue-ing through the entire comic about how decrepit and debilitating his body was and cursing how much better the young cops had it. It wasn't tossed aside instantly like TDKR's knee injury was.

I may have to go reread but, if I remember correctly, doesn't he stop monologue-ing about it around the point where he slaps on the leg and arm brace before going to fight the Mutant Leader?

[Tacit Ronin]

Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight

I may have to go reread but, if I remember correctly, doesn't he stop monologue-ing about it around the point where he slaps on the leg and arm brace before going to fight the Mutant Leader?

When I referenced 'cursing how much better the young cops had it" I am talking about the chapter right after he defeats the mutant leader. 'hunt the Dark Knight", with the new, female police commissioner.

[Snow Queen]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

When I referenced 'cursing how much better the young cops had it" I am talking about the chapter right after he defeats the mutant leader. 'hunt the Dark Knight", with the new, female police commissioner.

Ellen Yindel and I'll have to reread it. I seem to remember him not running into any physical limitations afterwards with that brace on.

[Tacit Ronin]

Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight

Ellen Yindel and I'll have to reread it. I seem to remember him not running into any physical limitations afterwards with that brace on.

There is a single panel that shows him in the surgery bed in the last chapter with Alfred assuring "he'll live". Needless to say, this is far more than the utter neglect of Rises after he gets his braces.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by georgec

But Batman knew that trying more powerful tools that gave him an unfair advantage would have invited Bane's men to start shooting.

That doesn't make any sense. Batman said to himself "I'll use the flashbangs and the electromagnetic device, because I know those won't give me an advantage?" He was down. He was looking for anything to give him an advantage. If he had thought those things would be useless he wouldn't have tried them at all.

[JackWhite]

I know some here have a problem with the knee brace, but you still get the point that Bruce has to really fight through what his body is willing to take in TDKR. Even when he fights Bane the second time, you can tell that Bruce has to really dig deep to defeat Bane. Hell, remember when he saves Blake? Bruce takes out about, 3-4 LOS with relative ease, yet when he is standing over there defeated bodies; Bruce is breathing heavily.

[Snow Queen]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

There is a single panel that shows him in the surgery bed in the last chapter with Alfred assuring "he'll live". Needless to say, this is far more than the utter neglect of Rises after he gets his braces.

I could have sworn the surgery bed bit was in the first chapter when he was investigating Two Face.

And, I don't see it as neglect, I see it as symbolism. The brace is used by Bruce to quickly become Batman, a quick fix. Batman was a quick fix for Bruce to conceal his pain instead of moving on. It's discarded and forgotten as Bruce learns to live as Bruce Wayne instead of Batman.

[Tacit Ronin]

I could have sworn the surgery bed bit was in the first chapter when he was investigating Two Face.

Unless I have a special version of the book in my hands with the chapters twisted, it's not. And the surgery being in the first chapter makes no sense as he gets demolished by Mutant leader after he beats Two Face.

And, I don't see it as neglect, I see it as symbolism. The brace is used by Bruce to quickly become Batman, a quick fix. Batman was a quick fix for Bruce to conceal his pain instead of moving on. It's discarded and forgotten as Bruce learns to live as Bruce Wayne instead of Batman.

I wonder if Bane was a gentleman and let him keep his braces all through his prison stint.

[milost]

He gave him a doctor to help heal him so I wouldn't rule it out.

[georgec]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

That doesn't make any sense. Batman said to himself "I'll use the flashbangs and the electromagnetic device, because I know those won't give me an advantage?" He was down. He was looking for anything to give him an advantage. If he had thought those things would be useless he wouldn't have tried them at all.

Where did I say Batman thought those things were useless? You've misinterpreted what I said completely.

I said unfair advantage. There is a difference between a flashbang (something that causes disorientation but may not injure) and, say, an actual small explosive or weapon that can cause injury.

He was down and looking for ways to even the mismatch, but it's not like he was about to resort to all sorts of weapons and tools in his arsenal. Of course, you can think Batman shooting Bane in the neck with his grappling hook wouldn't piss off the 30 guys who were watching.

Bane knew Batman wouldn't resort to extreme measures - his rules, remember? Bane knew Batman would use flashbangs and EMP. Therefore he was ready for it, and so were the League members. They knew how Batman would approach the fight and they were prepared.

"Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated, and we are initiated aren't we, Bruce? Members of the League of Shadows."

translation - "I know the tactics you employ and I expected them. They have no effect on me."

[ThePhantasm]

Who said Bats should shoot Bane in the neck with a grappling hook?

We're not talking about Bats killing Bane here. We're talking about him using equipment that could help him win the fight. You're talking about something totally different.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Who said Bats should shoot Bane in the neck with a grappling hook?

We're not talking about Bats killing Bane here. We're talking about him using equipment that could help him win the fight. You're talking about something totally different.

Exactly. Look at how he used his grappling hook to take down SWAT team guys and save hostages in the Prewitt building scene.

Such a good scene.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Exactly. Look at how he used his grappling hook to take down SWAT team guys and save hostages in the Prewitt building scene.

Such a good scene.

Brilliant scene. Here's that scene with some of TDKR soundtrack spliced with it.



But yeah, not sure why he doesn't at least have the grapnel gun with him when he confronts Bane. Batman even uses the grapnel gun (off-screen) to save one of the hostages during his return scene.

[georgec]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Who said Bats should shoot Bane in the neck with a grappling hook?

It's called facetious hyperbole, unless you actually thought I literally meant Batman would shoot Bane in the neck.

We're not talking about Bats killing Bane here. We're talking about him using equipment that could help him win the fight. You're talking about something totally different.

Except, you assume that Batman would be able to use all his tools without Bane's men interfering. Why do you think Nolan included those shots of Bane's men watching? This was an extremely hostile environment for Batman to walk into. He was trapped in a small area under watch. Much different than the end of TDK where he might have been chased but still had plenty more freedom to move around and use his tools.

I've said already Bane's men were prepared and expected Batman to use things like flashbangs. But if Batman used a grappling hook to gain position and evade Bane, for example, I could see Barsad shooting at it to break the cable and not allow Batman to get a break.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by georgec

Except, you assume that Batman would be able to use all his tools without Bane's men interfering.

And you assume that Bats didn't use said tools because he knew they would interfere. Which implies he knew they would be so useless as to not register as a threat to Bane's men. Which raises the question - why use the tools at all?

[georgec]

Because he was losing the fight badly and started panicking. That's why. The flashbangs and darkness didn't help him, and pretty soon the fight was over.

Even if he wanted to use other methods, he didn't have the time or chance to do so.

[milost]

Oh, and The Dark Knight Returns Bruce Wayne and Batman is a very different character than the TDKR Bale Bruce/Batman.


In Returns, Batman isn't a cripple. He envies youth and is humbled by everything he's experienced. He's an older man that has been at war for decades. He's a couple of years away from 60 and is much more obsessed, dedicated and driven than the Bale was depicted in TDKR. "Slapping on" mechanical enhancements is completely understandable.

In TDKR, Bruce is a moping cripple. Both personas have been dormant and he hasn't done anything in years. He's what? In his late 30's, 40? He's been Batman for about a year. He's not humbled, he's overconfident, foolish and he's right back to where he was in Batman Begins to the point where he has to relearn. He's not driven and he underestimates his enemies just like he did when he was Batman for the first 3/4 of his career.

[BatLobsterRises]

Wow, the TDKR boards have been more active today than the Iron Man 3 boards. Imagine that!

[Snow Queen]

Originally Posted by milost

Oh, and The Dark Knight Returns Bruce Wayne and Batman is a very different character than the TDKR Bale Bruce/Batman.


In Returns, Batman isn't a cripple. He envies youth and is humbled by everything he's experienced. He's an older man that has been at war for decades. He's a couple of years away from 60 and is much more obsessed, dedicated and driven than the Bale was depicted in TDKR. "Slapping on" mechanical enhancements is completely understandable.

In TDKR, Bruce is a moping cripple. Both personas have been dormant and he hasn't done anything in years. He's what? In his late 30's, 40? He's been Batman for about a year. He's not humbled, he's overconfident, foolish and he's right back to where he was in Batman Begins to the point where he has to relearn. He's not driven and he underestimates his enemies just like he did when he was Batman for the first 3/4 of his career.

So Batman who retired after the death of Jason Todd and the government bill to put superheroes into hiding that uses mechanical enhancements to go back out is fine?

But the Bruce Wayne who retired to achieve a victory (based on a lie though), the death of his one love and the person anchoring him to his life outside of Batman, the death of the person he thought could save the city without the need for a mask and allow him to retire and leave Gotham in peace (something he is allowed to do at the end of TDKR with Blake taking up the mantle), attempts to create a clean energy supply for Gotham but then it's discovered it can be turned into a bomb, is injured, then exiles himself after all his perceived failures and goes back out with a death wish while wearing a leg brace (again, used for symbolism mostly) and then recovers over the course of (just a guess from what we see) 3-4 months enough to go back to Gotham and end it should not be wearing a leg brace?

[kvz5]

Johnny Depp has the Two-Face coin from TDK:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/...he-dark-knight

Originally Posted by Aaron Eckhart

"I did a movie called The Rum Diary in Puerto Rico and Johnny Depp and I were somewhere on the set one day and Johnny said to me, 'Aaron, what happened to the coin [from The Dark Knight], the coin that Two-Face flipped?' And I said, 'Oh, I gave it back and Warner Bros. has it.' And he goes, 'Oh, yeah, no, they don't. I bought it.' He said, 'My Kid saw The Dark Knight and loved Two-Face so much that I bought him the coin.' It never occurred to me grab the coin, but I'm glad it's in good hands."

[Travesty]

Ha, nice.