The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 145

[The Shape]

Anyways, my intention wasn't malicious...or to try to speak for others. I was conjecturing based on reactions to TDKR and IM3 around these boards from fans, and that wasn't even my point. My point was that the polarizing reaction from IM3 seems to be based around the big switcheroo, the "duping" of fans who now feel cheated. Of course there are other criticisms, but that is probably the single most active point of conversation in terms of criticisms.

With TDKR, it seemed people were more just disappointed with the overall scheme of things rather than one big thing. Is that fair?

[Tacit Ronin]

The most hilarious thing about Iron Man was that I remember someone on the boards asserting that we cannot complain about the Mandarin thing because, get this, where were we when iron Man was nearly cancelled in the 90s? Where were the so called Mandarin fans? Yup, we are at fault for something that was a systematic dissolution beyond the scope of our control and that is why we can't complain about something in a movie about the character two decades later.

Gotta love fanboyism.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by regwec

TDKR just smacked of being competent. The fireworks of TDK were hard to follow. Overall, making a mediocre threequel is no mean achievement.

Funny then how so many have attempted to reveal its supposed incompetence.

Although for my money, TDKR displayed more virtuosity than mediocrity.

Originally Posted by theShape

Anyways, my intention wasn't malicious...or to try to speak for others. I was conjecturing based on reactions to TDKR and IM3 around these boards from fans, and that wasn't even my point. My point was that the polarizing reaction from IM3 seems to be based around the big switcheroo, the "duping" of fans who now feel cheated. Of course there are other criticisms, but that is probably the single most active point of conversation in terms of criticisms.

With TDKR, it seemed people were more just disappointed with the overall scheme of things rather than one big thing. Is that fair?

I think that's totally fair and a good observation. Obviously you can't generalize for EVERYONE, but for many people that's precisely the case. We all bring baggage into these movies. It's silly to try and deny that.

[regwec]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Funny then how so many have attempted to reveal its supposed incompetence.

I think it is competent judged as a whole, but it is uneven in its elements. Some are incompetent, some are good. Most movies are like that, but expectations were leveled at TDKR higher than at most movies.

[The Shape]

Originally Posted by regwec

I think it is competent judged as a whole, but it is uneven in its elements. Some are incompetent, some are good. Most movies are like that, but expectations were leveled at TDKR higher than at most movies.

I do agree with you there. Certainly uneven elements in terms of storytelling, at least more so than TDK.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by regwec

I think it is competent judged as a whole, but it is uneven in its elements. Some are incompetent, some are good. Most movies are like that, but expectations were leveled at TDKR higher than at most movies.

I can buy that. You know how it is with certain types of fans sometimes though, it's all or nothing. Amazing or garbage.

[georgec]

The leap from BB to TDK was incredibly huge. If there were expectations for a similar-sized leap from TDK to TDKR, they could not have been possibly met. I went into the movie not with a "Will this be better than TDK?" mindset, but a "I'm looking forward to the final chapter in this trilogy" mindset. I think this helped me enjoy the film more. I had ideas and theories of how it would unfold (Blake is Blake ), but these weren't rigid and I tried not to have any strings attached.

I'm not saying every person who didn't like the film screwed themselves by having a bad attitude, but I do think some people hampered their ability to enjoy the film with fairly high expectations. We've all done that before.

TDKR has some flaws (like the other two movies), but overall it's such an emotional, visceral, engaging, epic story. I could not have hoped for a better conclusion to the trilogy of Bruce Wayne's personal journey.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by georgec

The leap from BB to TDK was incredibly huge. If there were expectations for a similar-sized leap from TDK to TDKR, they could not have been possibly met. I went into the movie not with a "Will this be better than TDK?" mindset, but a "I'm looking forward to the final chapter in this trilogy" mindset. I think this helped me enjoy the film more. I had ideas and theories of how it would unfold (Blake is Blake ), but these weren't rigid and I tried not to have any strings attached.

I'm not saying every person who didn't like the film screwed themselves by having a bad attitude, but I do think some people hampered their ability to enjoy the film with fairly high expectations. We've all done that before.

TDKR has some flaws (like the other two movies), but overall it's such an emotional, visceral, engaging, epic story. I could not have hoped for a better conclusion to the trilogy of Bruce Wayne's personal journey.

Honestly, as great as TDK (and believe me, I ****ing LOVE TDK), I honestly think that with the right tweaks to the story and a 3-and-a-half hour running time, they could have achieved that same leap in quality.

Having said that though, the fact that it wasn't better than TDK isn't why I didn't love TDKR, I just didn't care for a lot of the film based on its own merit.

[Isearch4dope]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I can buy that. You know how it is with certain types of fans sometimes though, it's all or nothing. Amazing or garbage.

But it's when fans can obviously see the potential that was wasted and also judging by previous work.....isn't there a right to view something which such sins as garbage-ish

[regwec]

You couldn't have hoped for one? Fair enough, but that might characterise your expectations as unduly low.

I doubt many people were expecting lightning to strike twice after TDK, but I would say that the end of TDK seems to promise something quite different from what TDKR delivers. That isn't a fault with either film as such, but it is consequently unfair to criticise people for having their expectations confounded.

[ThePhantasm]

TDKR could have matched TDK if they hadn't tried to overstuff it, but had instead split it into two films: one with the Knightfall theme and one with the No Man's Land theme. I honestly believe that. Half the plot holes and underdeveloped characters are due to the film trying to cram stuff into the IMAX required runtime.

[georgec]

I'm not saying I didn't expect TDKR to be a great film. I'm saying the leap from BB to TDK was huge. The leap from TDK to TDKR had potential to be large, but when people saw TDK it completely blew them away. Completely. And a lot of that was Ledger.

I was blown away by TDKR. Not because I had low expectations. Because I wasn't looking for it to one-up TDK. I was looking for it to be a better movie but for different reasons.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Anita18

What are they ****ing on about now, if not that? That pic of Rhino?

A little argument here and there about how Electro is "created", and then when the Rhino pics came out..."debates" from if he'll be genetically mutated like Lizard or if he'll be in a mech suit...recently, I've even read some concerns of how "campy" and "over the top" Giamatti looks, and his Rhino-themed underwear certainly helps that cause, lol.

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

The Spidey boards have calmed down for the most part now that we're getting new (amazing) set photos almost every day. But sweet Jesus that Mary Jane thread is infuriating, I swear 90% of the people in it have to still be in middle-school.

As for TDKR. I have never seen a more depressing board than this on July 20th

Depressing? How so? I remember when the first poll was made to see what people thought of the film, there were much more '10''s than anything else.

Originally Posted by The Batman

^ Exactly. It's the same thing on the IM3 boards. You must dislike the Mandarin twist because you wanted him to be asian with magic rings....it can't POSSIBLY be that you found decoy Mandarin more interesting than the real one.

Besides the idea that Shane Black did make The Mandarin out to be a caricature by making him an actor playing as this terrorist leader, the idea that Shane Black combined two characters from the comics bugs me the most. It's fine if Jon Favreau somewhat combined Whiplash and Crimson Dynamo in Iron Man 2, but then for Mandarin to be combined with Aldrich Killian is such a pathetic way into trying to make a more "pc" Mandarin.

[ThePhantasm]

A lot of it was Ledger, but some of it was that the writing was simply better. Look at all the classic lines in TDK. All the powerful moments, held together by a story with a natural flow to it. TDKR by comparison is clunky, disjointed, rushed, and some of its better moments are simply riffs on the Begins and TDK stuff that went before. Great actors / characters like Gary Oldman are largely sidelined so that boring portrayals of boring characters can have screentime.

The leap from BB to TDK wasn't that huge. BB is a fantastic film in its own right, and I go back and forth every other day over whether I like it or TDK more. I never have that problem with TDKR though - it is firmly in third place.

[The_Raganork]

For me TDKR was just a big lazy mess. For all the ambition we saw during the shooting none of it seemed reflected on the screen. Moments that could have been action packed felt a little dull. Couple that with some unfinished characters, horrific editing and a story not really worth much to justify it's, nearly, 3 hour run time and TDKR just became a let down.

Not to mention: Nolan is better than TDKR. I just rewatched The Prestiege the other day and wow...what a great film. Nothing like TDKR in comparison. Fully thought out realized and executed. TDKR seemed to be resting on the fact that it was a Batman film more than a good film, which is not, in my opinion, what BB TDK did.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by The_Raganork

Not to mention: Nolan is better than TDKR. I just rewatched The Prestiege the other day and wow...what a great film. Nothing like TDKR in comparison. Fully thought out realized and executed. TDKR seemed to be resting on the fact that it was a Batman film more than a good film, which is not, in my opinion, what BB TDK did.

One cay say Nolan is better than any past film he's made so far when looking at The Prestige, though. It's certainly my favorite Nolan film.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by The_Raganork

For me TDKR was just a big lazy mess. For all the ambition we saw during the shooting none of it seemed reflected on the screen. Moments that could have been action packed felt a little dull. Couple that with some unfinished characters, horrific editing and a story not really worth much to justify it's, nearly, 3 hour run time and TDKR just became a let down.

Not to mention: Nolan is better than TDKR. I just rewatched The Prestiege the other day and wow...what a great film. Nothing like TDKR in comparison. Fully thought out realized and executed. TDKR seemed to be resting on the fact that it was a Batman film more than a good film, which is not, in my opinion, what BB TDK did.

It's good to see Rag back

[The_Raganork]

Good to see you too!

Soon I'll be migrating to the MoS section. I'm trying to NOT do what I did with TDKR and spoil myself and I've been doing pretty well minus a few interesting tidbits!

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by The_Raganork

Good to see you too!

Soon I'll be migrating to the MoS section. I'm trying to NOT do what I did with TDKR and spoil myself and I've been doing pretty well minus a few interesting tidbits!

Good on you. I know practically nothing about MOS, aside from what the official trailers have shown us. I was the same for Iron Man 3. I hope the pay off is better for MOS than it was for IM3.

[shauner111]

I really don't understand all this talk of TDKR being clunky or being a mess. It just baffles me. I never have any idea what you guys are talking about when I hear stuff like that. It's almost as if im watching a completely different movie.

Oh well! Ill probably never understand those claims.

I just watched TDK again the other night, and as much as I love it, I don't get it when people say TDKR was not even close to that level of quality.

[The_Raganork]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Good on you. I know practically nothing about MOS, aside from what the official trailers have shown us. I was the same for Iron Man 3. I hope the pay off is better for MOS than it was for IM3.

You've seen enough of my post to surmise what I thought about Iron Man 3.

Needless to say I really hope MoS is as good as it is reported and seems to be.

I do think it looks awfully amazing though

[The_Raganork]

Originally Posted by shauner111

I really don't understand all this talk of TDKR being clunky or being a mess. It just baffles me. I never have any idea what you guys are talking about when I hear stuff like that. It's almost as if im watching a completely different movie.

Oh well! Ill probably never understand those claims.

I just watched TDK again the other night, and as much as I love it, I don't get it when people say TDKR was not even close to that level of quality.

it has to do with the rushed quality of the film. Amazing time jumps that are hardly explained.

Lackluster characters like Talia, who could have been pretty amazing if they hadn't spent so much time making Bane everything and leaving her with the the leftovers of his damage.

Forgotten characters like Gordon throughout most of the film. Part of what makes TDK so great is that it plays between a few main characters, one of them being Gordon who holds a lot of weight in the film. TDKR seems to forget that Gordon is a major part of this Gotham. It also seems to forget Selina in the middle part of the film, instead focusing on quick glimpses into John Blake's life. Whom I still think adds nothing to the film that couldn't have been done with more from Gordon and Selina...even so what they show of Blake is really nothing much. Just him going here, going there...

and worse for me...it wasn't about anything. There's a threat on Gotham and it has to be resolved but there was so much more in TDK's threat. It wasn't going to be the end of Gotham as we know it but the ramifications of what happens in TDK were going to be far and wide no matter what.

TDKR seemed superficial. Throw a nuke in there and every one will have to accept the damage that can be done but I was hoping for a more internal story like the other two.

[BatLobsterRises]

Breaks my heart a little that Rag didn't like the film, considering how much I loved his input during the buildup here. (I think I saw it at the same showing as you in Lincoln Center btw Rag). Especially considering the great posts you used to make about Bruce Wayne's journey, and how much the film really fulfilled all of that stuff.

Ah well. I certainly don't fault the third film in a series for leaning on elements of the first two films. It was meant to close off the trilogy. That's the decision they made from the get go. Even Jonah Nolan said that you like to think of each movie as stand alone but the truth is when it's a trilogy none of them really are. I think that's how they approached TDKR. "We're making a trilogy here, stuff that happened before matters and will tie in." No pretenses about making a fully stand alone film. If you go to see a third movie in a franchise, do the required viewing.

Personally, I dig that. One of my biggest pet peeves of the previous Batman franchise was next to 0 continuity between films. I liked that certain elements weren't off the table to be revisited.

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by shauner111

I don't get it when people say TDKR was not even close to that level of quality.

I guess some people just didn't feel it in their bones and stuff?

[Isearch4dope]

Originally Posted by The_Raganork

For me TDKR was just a big lazy mess. For all the ambition we saw during the shooting none of it seemed reflected on the screen. Moments that could have been action packed felt a little dull. Couple that with some unfinished characters, horrific editing and a story not really worth much to justify it's, nearly, 3 hour run time and TDKR just became a let down.

Not to mention: Nolan is better than TDKR. I just rewatched The Prestiege the other day and wow...what a great film. Nothing like TDKR in comparison. Fully thought out realized and executed. TDKR seemed to be resting on the fact that it was a Batman film more than a good film, which is not, in my opinion, what BB TDK did.

So short and epic a response this is!!!! I guess the people who liked it and thought it was enough will forever think we are spoiled brats who want it our way but that's not the point at all. It's like giving a baby milk that's nutritious and fresh and one day you just decide to give that baby spoiled milk because you're not up to going to the store.