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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:09 PM   #501
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The way I see it,we didn't get the Mandarin in this trilogy.And it's kinda sad since they had a decent set-up.IM will be the only hero not to face his arch enemy in the MCU.

If you want to say Killian was the "real" Mandarin,that's like saying Bane was the real Ra's Al Ghul.
More like Scare Crow saying he was the real Ra's Al Ghul...

The people that defend the twist justify it by saying that Mandarin was a crappy villain in the comics, but somehow they are ok with (while they could've kept Killian as Killian) them making Killian also the Mandarin, which they say is way closer to the comic book version which they just called a bad incarnation to justify the twist. It's kinda self-contradicting their own arguments

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Old 05-19-2013, 05:37 PM   #502
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The way I see it,we didn't get the Mandarin in this trilogy.And it's kinda sad since they had a decent set-up.IM will be the only hero not to face his arch enemy in the MCU.

If you want to say Killian was the "real" Mandarin,that's like saying Bane was the real Ra's Al Ghul.

Except we *did* get Mandarin in IM3;
and his name is Aldrich Killian;
and even Shane Black and Kevin Feige said outright that Killian is Mandarin;
and everyone in the audience gets it except for the handful of self-professed Fandarins who were too busy crying in their popcorn to actually pay attention to the movie.

Move on.

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Old 05-19-2013, 05:50 PM   #503
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

To be honest,I can't claim to be a die-hard reader of IM comics,but even I know that a guy that spits fire and has dragon tattoos does not equate the way the Mandarin has been traditionally been displayed.

Hell,if they at least had Killian wear ten rings with some kind of technological power,your argument might (just might mind you) have a leg to stand on.But like I said,basically it's like having Bane shout "I am Ra's Al Ghul!!!" and then be told to except that he was the "real" Ra's after a long line of decoy Ra's.

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Old 05-19-2013, 06:24 PM   #504
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Ra's Al Ghul is a half Arab, half Chinese guy, not an Irishman. He uses Lazarus pits to make himself immortal, he's not just the current title-holder. He's an eco-terrorist, not a city-scale vigilante.

In fact, the only thing movie Ra's and comic Ra's have in common is a certain evil logic to their personality.

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Old 05-19-2013, 06:25 PM   #505
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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To be honest,I can't claim to be a die-hard reader of IM comics,but even I know that a guy that spits fire and has dragon tattoos does not equate the way the Mandarin has been traditionally been displayed.

Hell,if they at least had Killian wear ten rings with some kind of technological power,your argument might (just might mind you) have a leg to stand on.But like I said,basically it's like having Bane shout "I am Ra's Al Ghul!!!" and then be told to except that he was the "real" Ra's after a long line of decoy Ra's.
No, it wouldn't be like Bane being Ra's, its exactly like Ducard being Ra's in BB. It's the exact same thing!

Hell, Ducard/Ra's wasn't immortal, he never wore the traditional Ra's outfit, he wasn't Arabic, etc. the only trait you could equate to his comic book counterpart, was that he was skilled in martial arts/hand-to-hand combat. Other than that, it was just the same kind of twist we got with IM3. Although, for some reason, when Nolan does it, he somehow "respected the character", when really, I think he went just as far, if not farther than what Shane Black did.

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Old 05-19-2013, 06:56 PM   #506
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

what defines a certain character is not only clothing or how he fights or from what country he is from, there is more to it than that. It's mostly motivations for the actions the character does, the way he personally views different things, ideology and overall personality. Killian can do karate chops and wear dragon tattoos all he wants, his character is still a sleazy a-hole business man with a pitty personal grudge against Tony.

And even when a couple superficial elements of Killian kinda match what Mandarin was in comics, saying in the movie that he's the real Mandarin doesn't make sense because they don't know about any comics. From their point of view Trevor's character "The Mandarin" was THE original, and when Killian, a completely different character with a completely different personality call's himself the real Mandarin it would realistically be confusing to the characters inside the story this is happening in


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Old 05-19-2013, 07:00 PM   #507
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Except we *did* get Mandarin in IM3;
and his name is Aldrich Killian;

and even Shane Black and Kevin Feige said outright that Killian is Mandarin;
and everyone in the audience gets it except for the handful of self-professed Fandarins who were too busy crying in their popcorn to actually pay attention to the movie.

Move on.
Is that the "The Mandarin" though? as in the character that's been around since the 60's? or just some guy who's adopted mandarin as a title?

He could have as easily announced he was any random Iron Man villain and it wouldn't have actually changed anything. In fact many people were guessing right up until his reveal that he was one of the other Iron Man villains actually.

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Old 05-19-2013, 07:01 PM   #508
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Basically,Killian was Mandarin in name only.MINO-that's right,I'm coining the term right now.I want a quarter every time someone uses it.

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Old 05-19-2013, 07:09 PM   #509
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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what defines a certain character is not only clothing or how he fights or from what country he is from, there is more to it than that. It's mostly motivations for the actions the character does, the way he personally views different things, ideology and overall personality.
Comic Mandarin's personality is mostly just rage and machismo and vanity. Really, what aspect of comic Mandarin's personality is Killian missing? Can you describe it?

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Old 05-19-2013, 07:32 PM   #510
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

When Marvel Studios played it safe and stuck closer to the source material than ever they were criticized for that. Now that Marvel is starting to take more chances and become more inventive with their films there being criticized for it as well.

Moral of the story, you can't please everyone.

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Old 05-19-2013, 07:41 PM   #511
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Comic Mandarin's personality is mostly just rage and machismo and vanity. Really, what aspect of comic Mandarin's personality is Killian missing? Can you describe it?
well, personality includes motivations and ideology. And the personality traits you just picked are so vague and could be found from so many villains that I guess from now on 50% of all Marvel villains could be interpreted as The Mandarin right? I mean, why not

The comic book Mandarin, while sharing the same traits you just said, also has a strong but twisted sense of honor, he has developed an embittered attitude against the world and nations. After the Mandarin has grown up he becomes a megalomaniac conqueror who wants to rule the world

Killian in the movie set this all up so he'd create a supply demand for extremis and he'd get profits from it. That is not the comic book Mandarin. The mandarin also carries a certain kind of presence and has a very strong strickt ideology while Killian is this relaxed slimy business guy douche

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Old 05-19-2013, 08:03 PM   #512
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

The only honor I've ever seen comic Mandarin display is that he won't run from a fight, he'll fight you personally, sometimes he'll even resist using the rings and just go hand-to-hand with you as much as he can. His honor pretty much just amounts to warrior courage.





Which Killian had. He was in it to win it, even after Stark brought in multiple armors and blew him up.

Seriously comic Mandarin will do things like kidnap unarmed innocent people, including women, to force Iron Man to fight a fair duel with him. Possessing warrior courage is the only sense in which he is honorable. And Killian had that one type of honor.



This is a typical comic Mandarin moment, him almost foaming at the mouth, beating the hell out of a guy even after the guy is too curbstomped to move. He has courage, and he won't usually cheat to win a fair duel, but that's about the whole of his honor.

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Old 05-19-2013, 08:09 PM   #513
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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When Marvel Studios played it safe and stuck closer to the source material than ever they were criticized for that. Now that Marvel is starting to take more chances and become more inventive with their films there being criticized for it as well.

Moral of the story, you can't please everyone.
The problem is they weren't being inventive. there was nothing new about Killian or the Extremis concept.

Being inventive would have been taking the Mandarin and building him into a stronger character. Giving him an interesting history and motivation for his agenda. Making him a clever strategist, giving him an insight into his enemy that would truly put Stark on edge, wherein he'd have to bring out his best to defeat the Mandarin. And the rings. The frickin' rings.

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Old 05-19-2013, 08:16 PM   #514
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

To me, Killian was the mind of Mandarin, in the body of Mallen, with the name of Killian.... And that's a disappointment to me.

Why not have made Henry Ducard become the Joker, but put Batman in a bunch of situations that require answering a riddle to escape? What other villains can we combine into one? How about Crimson Dynamo and Whiplash? .... Wait....

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Old 05-19-2013, 08:30 PM   #515
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

It just wasn't necessary. I wanted a great villain. Killian was a generic one

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Old 05-19-2013, 08:51 PM   #516
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The problem is they weren't being inventive. there was nothing new about Killian or the Extremis concept.

Being inventive would have been taking the Mandarin and building him into a stronger character. Giving him an interesting history and motivation for his agenda. Making him a clever strategist, giving him an insight into his enemy that would truly put Stark on edge, wherein he'd have to bring out his best to defeat the Mandarin. And the rings. The frickin' rings.
I didn't say therye were being inventive I said they were being more inventive than they had been, big difference.

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Old 05-19-2013, 11:28 PM   #517
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The only honor I've ever seen comic Mandarin display is that he won't run from a fight, he'll fight you personally, sometimes he'll even resist using the rings and just go hand-to-hand with you as much as he can. His honor pretty much just amounts to warrior courage.





Which Killian had. He was in it to win it, even after Stark brought in multiple armors and blew him up.


Seriously comic Mandarin will do things like kidnap unarmed innocent people, including women, to force Iron Man to fight a fair duel with him. Possessing warrior courage is the only sense in which he is honorable. And Killian had that one type of honor.




This is a typical comic Mandarin moment, him almost foaming at the mouth, beating the hell out of a guy even after the guy is too curbstomped to move. He has courage, and he won't usually cheat to win a fair duel, but that's about the whole of his honor.



MichaelChen, I don't want this to come across the wrong way and I mean no offense or disrespect, but are you a Plant on this site for Marvel. The reason I ask is I see your name listed as a contributer at the bottom of the Mandarin's Character page for Marvel.Com's website. Link below.


http://marvel.com/universe/Mandarin


Just curious!


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Old 05-19-2013, 11:54 PM   #518
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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More like Scare Crow saying he was the real Ra's Al Ghul...

The people that defend the twist justify it by saying that Mandarin was a crappy villain in the comics, but somehow they are ok with (while they could've kept Killian as Killian) them making Killian also the Mandarin, which they say is way closer to the comic book version which they just called a bad incarnation to justify the twist. It's kinda self-contradicting their own arguments
OMG! Hit the Nail right on the head dude!

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:55 AM   #519
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

No, lol, I'm just a civilian who has contributed edit recommendations to a few Marvel bios. I don't work for Marvel, have never been contacted by Marvel, nothing. Someone in charge of those bios apparently respects my opinion on Mandarin enough to give me a writing credit and that's it.

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Old 05-20-2013, 01:10 AM   #520
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by TheWallCrawler View Post
what defines a certain character is not only clothing or how he fights or from what country he is from, there is more to it than that. It's mostly motivations for the actions the character does, the way he personally views different things, ideology and overall personality. Killian can do karate chops and wear dragon tattoos all he wants, his character is still a sleazy a-hole business man with a pitty personal grudge against Tony.
No: no, he isn't. I don't think you were paying attention to the movie at all.

Killian is not a businessman: he's a scientist. He doesn't run a business: he runs a private think tank that gathers other scientists and inventors and scholars to brainstorm revolutionary new ideas in science and technology, and he depends on corporate funding for his group's research, as most such institutions do. And he doesn't hold a petty personal grudge against Tony: in fact, just the exact opposite. He comes to Stark Industries *for help* at the beginning of the movie, looking for funding for the Extremis project.


Quote:
And even when a couple superficial elements of Killian kinda match what Mandarin was in comics, saying in the movie that he's the real Mandarin doesn't make sense because they don't know about any comics. From their point of view Trevor's character "The Mandarin" was THE original, and when Killian, a completely different character with a completely different personality call's himself the real Mandarin it would realistically be confusing to the characters inside the story this is happening in
Sure it would be. Just as it would be confusing for the audience. But guess what? Everybody grasped the situation and understood the twist. Why? Because they've already seen it, many times before. It's a carbon copy of the twist from Batman Begins, for starters. It's also been seen in The Wizard of Oz. And The Usual Suspects. And Total Recall. And many more. Decoys and smokescreen characters are a common enough trope in movies and TV and fiction in general. *Especially* in comic books. I don't know why some of you are trying to make this one seem more unprecedented and shocking than any of the other times we've seen this happen.

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Old 05-20-2013, 02:26 AM   #521
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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No, lol, I'm just a civilian who has contributed edit recommendations to a few Marvel bios. I don't work for Marvel, have never been contacted by Marvel, nothing. Someone in charge of those bios apparently respects my opinion on Mandarin enough to give me a writing credit and that's it.
Well if Marvel gave you a writing credit they must feel your knowledge of the Mandarin is considerable and for that you have my respect, and I feel like perhaps I should be taking your opinion into more account being as it is that you sort of wrote the book on the Mandarin Bio, but Iunfortunately still simply don't see enough aspects and details to feel like we got comic Mandarin. This debate though is futile as whats done is done and no amount of my complaining is going to make the least bit of difference. Therefore I am going to move on to the Thor boards and try to learn to accept the character we
got as the Mandarin. Thanks to those who allowed me to whine and blow off some steam.

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Old 05-20-2013, 04:03 AM   #522
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I love this guy's comment from cbm

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JokerFanHAhaHA - 5/19/2013, 6:27 PM

I'm sorry that you guys didn't get the walking Asian stereotype that was only created to represent fear of foreign threats and communism. Personally I'm content with quality story telling that both stands on it's own without relying too much on the comics, but at the same time takes inspiration from them and gives several nods.

Like the invention of The Mandarin. The comic character was created to represent our fears of Asian communism, And what did Killian do when he realized the potential of being behind the big red curtain? He made a villain to represent everything America fears at the time. Foreign terrorists.

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Old 05-20-2013, 04:14 AM   #523
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

The Mandarin doesn't represent communism. He was anti-communist from day one. He was trying to manipulate both sides to cause World War III.

Stan Lee seems to have a soft-spot for communists, possibly because he was a World War II vet and remembered being allied with Russia and China. Consequently, none of his big villains were communists. And his minor Communist villains like Crimson Dynamo and Black Widow would end up as redeemed heroes, or prove to be just soldiers doing their jobs like Titanium Man.

The original Mandarin origin has him as an aristocrat who spends all of his fiefdom's money making himself into what amounts to a super-soldier, a science and martial-arts ubermensche. This results in him going broke, and his fiefdom being taken away from him.

He's a metaphor for several things:
(1)The military industrial complex. He's a government going broke from military spending, in one man.

(2)The Nazi ideal. He's someone who has become perfect in mind and body from a macho teenager's vain perspective: a science(implicitly weapons inventing) and martial arts hypermasculine monster.

(3)Imperial Japan. He's constantly karate-chopping everything and he's perpetually enraged.

(4)Aristocrat villains. Specifically, the sort of aristocrat villains who in western fiction tend to be really brilliant fencers and hunters, and whose dominant character traits are misogyny, class bigotry, and thinly-veiled barbarism.

Interestingly, there are two things you'd think he would be that he's not: he's not Communist, and he's not a Chinese stereotype, not inscrutable and full of coldly evil logic. Instead He's a British/Mongol aristocrat Nazi Imperial Japanese who is trying to manipulate everyone into starting World War III.

In simpler terms, The Mandarin is the embodiment of vanity, rage, and especially war, a human Ares.

Stan Lee, a World War II vet, seems to have made him to embody everything a World War II vet would despise. Despite being born in China, he's more of a pastiche of the Axis stereotypes and a particular variant on the British aristocrat villain.

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Old 05-20-2013, 04:39 AM   #524
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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No: no, he isn't. I don't think you were paying attention to the movie at all.
I watched it 2 times, and I paid extra attention the 2nd time. His big plan was to turn profit from war. To be more exact, create a major terrorist/war threat thus creating a demand for his supply. He explained this in great detail

Quote:
Sure it would be. Just as it would be confusing for the audience. But guess what? Everybody grasped the situation and understood the twist. Why? Because they've already seen it, many times before. It's a carbon copy of the twist from Batman Begins, for starters.
No it's not. Why you ask? Because after the Ra's decoy reveal Liam Neeson's Ra's Al Ghul still was the same type of villain in terms of motivations, ideology and goals that the first established Ra's Al Ghul in the movie was, but after the Mandarin twist Killian as The Mandarin was a whole different thing what the first Mandarin was established as. You can argue that Killian's Mandarin was more what Mandarin was in the comics, but inside the movie's universe there is no reason for Killian to call himself The real Mandarin when the original Mandarin in this reality wasn't the comic book version but an entirely different thing. In a nut shell: the terms on what Killian could be called "the real Mandarin" don't exist in the movie's own reality/universe and therefore all this doesn't make sense at all

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Old 05-20-2013, 04:56 AM   #525
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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No it's not. Why you ask? Because after the Ra's decoy reveal Liam Neeson's Ra's Al Ghul still was the same type of villain in terms of motivations, ideology and goals that the first established Ra's Al Ghul in the movie was, but after the Mandarin twist Killian as The Mandarin was a whole different thing what the first Mandarin was established as. You can argue that Killian's Mandarin was more what Mandarin was in the comics, but inside the movie's universe there is no reason for Killian to call himself The real Mandarin when the original Mandarin in this reality wasn't the comic book version but an entirely different thing. In a nut shell: the terms on what Killian could be called "the real Mandarin" don't exist in the movie's own reality/universe and therefore all this doesn't make sense at all
I kinda see what you mean. Say the made up terrorist was named the Libertine. Once it's revealed that the Libertine wasn't a "real" terrorist but an idea to play on America's fear if the main antagonist then says' "I am the Libertine." It really wouldn't make sense to any character within that story. Both Killlian and Mandarin could have seriously been named anything.....but wait.......he has tattoos........but wait......he karate chops..............ooh.....and that guy has ten rings on his fingers.

IMO what happened was that the director didn't want to use the Mandarin. Someone told him that he could use a more modern version and give his character similar characteristics and if there're any comic fans who protest give examples of how this does in fact work.

The problem is more in the narrative than in the way the characters were handled.

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