How long before the fan community turns on the Nolan films?

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

I didn't specifically target anybody. I chose to respond to you because your post came after mine's addressing the GA thing.

But why? Lol. It's silly to pinpoint mine when I wasn't even directing my posts to anyone.

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

TDK should be discussed on its own merits like everything else.

Okay, so then it's understandable to say it shouldn't matter what the GA thinks about TDK when the GA likes Bayformers as well.

[Tacit Ronin]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

But why? Lol. It's silly to pinpoint mine when I wasn't even directing my posts to anyone.



Okay, so then it's understandable to say it shouldn't matter what the GA thinks about TDK when the GA likes Bayformers as well.

I would've responded to anyone, your post just happened to proceed mine's first. And why not? Just because it is not directed at anyone does that not mean you can't discuss it?

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

TDK should be discussed on its own merits like everything else.

Yup

[Shikamaru]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

The general audiences are like the Oscars: best, most credible thing ever if they support my film, worst, most vile thing ever if they don't. The general audiences are scum for liking and making Transformers a huge hit, but they are also legit because they liked and made Rises a hit.

Well said.

And Anno, when we are talking about the GA, that does not boil down to just your friends. The general audience is much larger than that, which I am sure (and hope) that you are aware of.

Originally Posted by TheBat812

I think you're judging the movie for something it isn't trying to be. It's trying to be a movie that entertains as a summer blockbuster but offers more depth from a character and thematic standpoint. It is trying to capture that grand scope of old epics such as Lawrence of Arabia. It is trying to get people to care enough about Bruce that they don't care that he's not in the Batman suit the majority of the movie, and have us invested enough into the character to care about the fate of Gotham as it relates to his personal journey and mission statement. To have us root for him to put all this stuff behind him and find life anew. To me, the film succeeded at what it was trying to accomplish in nearly every important way.

I disagree. The movie is clearly going for that. It is trying to be the same thing that The Dark Knight tried to be - a smart film intended for smart moviegoers but fun and action packed enough so that everyone else can enjoy it and get a kick out of it. I know this is going to sound really weird to say since it is a sequel to TDK and it's done by the same people but it really felt to me as if they were trying to upstage or replicate TDK not in terms of story but in the sense that Nolan was too busy focusing on how to make a film with the same quality as TDK or higher instead of not worrying about that, focusing on the film at hand, and let the quality of the film come naturally. The movie gives off this vibe to me by not only the pride that it takes in how realistic it is (i.e. the Bourne-like plane scene in the beginning, Bruce's body being so wrecked from being Batman, etc.) that it discards on-and-off but also by how it tries to covers up many paper thin plot elements with overwritten dialogue and with many big words, as well as by the fact that it constantly asks you to question and think about certain things in the movie only to never address them or allude to them (essentially leaving those things there just because). The Nolan interviews released prior to TDKR where he talked about how he wanted to make TDKR his most realistic and most ambitious project to date also added to creating this vibe.

[JackWhite]

Did Nolan really say he wanted TDKR to be his most realistic film? I buy the ambitious part.

[Shikamaru]

He did in terms of practical effects. It goes hand-in-hand with the ambitious part.

[Tacit Ronin]

And he achieved it. The practical effects in this film is a wonder to behold. Shame about the script though.

[Ryan]

Agreed. I wish he would have focussed less on having the scope of Lawrence of Arabia, which Nolan likened it to, and had focussed on having a story as good as Lawrence of Arabia. I'm personally less wow'd by spectacle then I am by intriguing dialogue or plot.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

I think it works both ways.

On one hand, you have the group of people that are often blinded by nostalgia and refuse to accept that anything new is better than the product from their past that they saw when they were younger. On the other hand, you have the bandwagoners that cling onto whatever is new and bash the previous products in order to justify the reboot. The sad thing is that regardless of how superior or inferior a reboot of a franchise will be compared to the previous films, there will always be a certain number of people blinded by nostalgia and bandwagoners respectively on each side. I also want to establish that I don't mean to call everyone who prefers the older version of something a person blinded by nostalgia and everyone who prefers the newest version automatically a bandwagoner. I'm talking about the people that do automatically prefer the older version of whatever because they're blinded by nostalgia and the people that automatically prefer the newest version of the product because they are bandwagoners.

Not many people will agree with me on this but I don't think we'll see as many people turn on the Nolan films or on the Batman reboot as you usually see whenever a new reboot comes out, or at least you won't see as many people that are open about it. First of all, unlike previous franchises that were rebooted because the quality dropped, Batman will presumably be rebooted - I say presumably because there is still a chance that WB will bring back Nolan's Batman for the Justice League film - because the director intentionally decided to conclude the franchise. This may minimize the number of people blinded by nostalgia that will use the "Why can't they make a better/another sequel?" argument. Second, it will be a heck of a lot harder for the bandwagoners to justify them turning on the Nolan films than it was for them to justify turning on any other CBM so far. The Dark Knight is still the most critically acclaimed comic book movie to date. It will be a heck of a lot harder to justify why they turned on TDK so quick as opposed to why they turned on so fast on Raimi's Spider-Man or Burton's Batman or the rest. Whenever a new reboot comes out, a lot of these bandwagoners also try to argue that the only reason people liked the previous films so much was because they came out when there were barely any comic book movies released. They can't really use that argument with the Nolan films because they came out when the popularity of superheroes on the big screen reached its peak or is/was at least close to reaching its peak.

I'm not saying this will definitely be the case but I do think the possibility of seeing not that big of a "war" is there.

As someone who defended the Burton movies when BB came out and their names had become mud on this forum, I can safely say the vast majority will have an about change. Maybe not as drastic as with Burton and Raimi, as you say, but it will happen in large swaths sooner or later.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

I would've responded to anyone, your post just happened to proceed mine's first. And why not? Just because it is not directed at anyone does that not mean you can't discuss it?

And you still don't get my aggravation of this, lol. Your posts were of the condescending type just because I mentioned why I bring up the GA because most of my friends would fit in that demo. I didn't appreciate the attitude, that's all and the attitude towards me since your replies seemingly came right after my own.

But you mentioned TDK needs to be viewed on its own merits...I agree, one shouldn't bring up the GA for that film anyways and look at the merits of TDK...but the same thing for TDKR. A film that is given reviews that fits it snuggly in between BB and TDK; that, imo, is a pretty good place to be situated in. While it may not be in the lightning in a bottle that was TDK, it does have high praise for sure and I think a lot of people want to not believe that.

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

And Anno, when we are talking about the GA, that does not boil down to just your friends. The general audience is much larger than that, which I am sure (and hope) that you are aware of.

Please read my own post in the last page as I was just stating my own opinion on why I bring up the GA. It wasn't as a "that's what people always do" kinda of thing.

Man, sometimes things are blown way out of proportion.

Originally Posted by JackWhite

Did Nolan really say he wanted TDKR to be his most realistic film? I buy the ambitious part.

That's because Nolan never said anything about wanting to make TDKR his most realistic film, lol. That's up there with the many ideas of the film that Shikamaru seems to have of the film when nothing is actually specified.

He made realistic practical effects, but he's done this in all three of his films.

And many times he had said he wanted TDKR to be his most ambitious film, and imo, he did succeed. In most of the praiseworthy reviews for the film, the word 'ambitious' is brought up numerous times.

[Shikamaru]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

And you still don't get my aggravation of this, lol. Your posts were of the condescending type just because I mentioned why I bring up the GA because most of my friends would fit in that demo. I didn't appreciate the attitude, that's all and the attitude towards me since your replies seemingly came right after my own.

But you mentioned TDK needs to be viewed on its own merits...I agree, one shouldn't bring up the GA for that film anyways and look at the merits of TDK...but the same thing for TDKR. A film that is given reviews that fits it snuggly in between BB and TDK; that, imo, is a pretty good place to be situated in. While it may not be in the lightning in a bottle that was TDK, it does have high praise for sure and I think a lot of people want to not believe that.

Yes, there are people who refuse to believe that. Me personally, I believe it but I don't care. lol

Please read my own post in the last page as I was just stating my own opinion on why I bring up the GA. It wasn't as a "that's what people always do" kinda of thing.

Man, sometimes things are blown way out of proportion.

Alright. Misread your post. Yeah, I confess to the crime .

Yes, it does work both ways. There are many people that would source the GA's opinion of TDK as evidence for TDK being objectively great and then use the Bayformers argument when the GA has a different opinion than theirs. I do admit that I was one of those people when I was younger until I grew up and realized that that argument is complete BS from start to finish regardless of whether or not a movie is bad. However, that is precisely what Excelsior and I have stated.

Also, if you think about it, the GA isn't any smarter for loving TDK. What's the main reason for why they love Bayformers? "ZOMFG! Giant robots are fighting and it's so cool!". What's the main reason for why they love TDK? Because they love the themes, messages, and all that good stuff? For some, that is precisely the case (i.e. people like us and the critics, as well as some other moviegoers) but for a huge chunk of people that went to see it in theatres just to see Batman kicking butt, their main reason for liking the movie is "ZOMFG! Batman is so cool at fighting and he throws cool batarangs!" Not that there is anything wrong with liking a movie for that reason alone.

That's because Nolan never said anything about wanting to make TDKR his most realistic film, lol. That's up there with the many ideas of the film that Shikamaru seems to have of the film when nothing is actually specified.

He made realistic practical effects, but he's done this in all three of his films.

And many times he had said he wanted TDKR to be his most ambitious film, and imo, he did succeed. In most of the praiseworthy reviews for the film, the word 'ambitious' is brought up numerous times.

Actually, he did say that. Yes, the other 2 films had practical effects too but TDKR took it to a whole other level. It is Nolan's most ambitious film to date in the sense of the effort he put in using an even more minimum amount of CGI and special effects than he usually does (which is not a bad thing BTW; just stating what Nolan said).

That is at least true about the parts of the film that do indeed show that. Like I said before, around half of the film or even more doesn't feel like Nolan's most ambitious film to me, at least not from a storytelling point of view.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

Yes, there are people who refuse to believe that. Me personally, I believe it but I don't care. lol

And that's fine, I guess, lol. Most that do not like TDKR just tend to pretend blindly that the film didn't receive a great amount of praise.

Alright. Misread your post. Yeah, I confess to the crime .

Yes, it does work both ways. There are many people that would source the GA's opinion of TDK as evidence for TDK being objectively great and then use the Bayformers argument when the GA has a different opinion than theirs. I do admit that I was one of those people when I was younger until I grew up and realized that that argument is complete BS from start to finish regardless of whether or not a movie is bad. However, that is precisely what Excelsior and I have stated.

Also, if you think about it, the GA isn't any smarter for loving TDK. What's the main reason for why they love Bayformers? "ZOMFG! Giant robots are fighting and it's so cool!". What's the main reason for why they love TDK? Because they love the themes, messages, and all that good stuff? For some, that is precisely the case (i.e. people like us and the critics, as well as some other moviegoers) but for a huge chunk of people that went to see it in theatres just to see Batman kicking butt, their main reason for liking the movie is "ZOMFG! Batman is so cool at fighting and he throws cool batarangs!" Not that there is anything wrong with liking a movie for that reason alone.

Bingo. CB fans can definitely be both ways. Sometimes I'll even bring up the GA audience on TDKR, but most of the time it's also because most of my friends would fit that demo, but still...when a fan of TDK likes the film, they could bring up that the general audience enjoyed it as well...when someone doesn't like TDKR, they will bring up that the general audience also enjoyed Bayformers, so it's a very touchy subject, lol. But hey, at least the Bayformers films never got anything higher critically than 57%....Nolan's trilogy: 85% - 94%.

Actually, he did say that. Yes, the other 2 films had practical effects too but TDKR took it to a whole other level. It is Nolan's most ambitious film to date in the sense of the effort he put in using an even more minimum amount of CGI and special effects than he usually does (which is not a bad thing BTW; just stating what Nolan said).

That is at least true about the parts of the film that do indeed show that. Like I said before, around half of the film or even more doesn't feel like Nolan's most ambitious film to me, at least not from a storytelling point of view.

Realistic for practical effects is one thing. You made it sound like he said he wanted TDKR to be the most realistic, and just that, lol.

[Squaremaster316]

The next Batman reboot will be met with an extreme amount of resistance and derision, with people stating that it will never live up to Nolan's trilogy.

[Green Goblin]

They will turn on these films and say it's not the real batman. I can't see it be as bad as Rami as despite what many posters here say, Nolan hasn't made a T*** film like SM3...

[batfreakforever]

Just a thread to rip on Nolan. People already hate Snyder and hasn't even shown a pic of his Batman. That tells you a lot about the fan community alone.

[Chrisbarnes182]

Originally Posted by Squaremaster316

The next Batman reboot will be met with an extreme amount of resistance and derision, with people stating that it will never live up to Nolan's trilogy.

Exactly.

[Visualiza]

Originally Posted by batfreakforever

Just a thread to rip on Nolan. People already hate Snyder and hasn't even shown a pic of his Batman. That tells you a lot about the fan community alone.

Well, when you consistently produce what is perceived as sub-par work, then it's par for the course.

How much faith would you have in a Batman film directed by Uwe Boll?

You can't disregard the talent or track record of a film crew just because the subject matter is to your liking.

[Kane52630]

but what if you think his track record has been pretty damn good for the most part?

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Visualiza

Well, when you consistently produce what is perceived as sub-par work, then it's par for the course.

How much faith would you have in a Batman film directed by Uwe Boll?

You can't disregard the talent or track record of a film crew just because the subject matter is to your liking.

Originally Posted by Kane52630

but what if you think his track record has been pretty damn good for the most part?

And this right here is the basis of the fanboy wars for the next few years. Unlike Nolan when he came onto the Batman franchise, Snyder is pretty well-established and people have already formed their opinions on him.

[Visualiza]

Originally Posted by Kane52630

but what if you think his track record has been pretty damn good for the most part?

Needless to say, you'll feel differently, and there's nothing wrong with that. My point was that people aren't as fickle as batfreakforever was insinuating, and that some of us base our expectations on the entire scope of a project rather than the character alone.

This isn't to say that an upcoming film should be dismissed due to who is involved, but in the same way some fans are encouraged to be optimistic about a particular project for whatever reason, others can be wary for reasons of their own.

I know that conventional 'wisdom' suggests that the more support these movies have the better, but I don't believe it's wise to unconditionally accept whatever the genre produces. That's the point at which we accept mediocrity, and I'd rather see the genre die than have it overwhelmed with sub-standard material.

To address the matter at hand, I'll be wary of anything Zack Snyder produces until he proves to me that he can consistently make good films. Up to now, only one of his films were superlative, with the rest ranging from awful to decent. Considering the budget, characters, and responsibility he's been given, that doesn't quite cut it for me.

[Kane52630]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

And this right here is the basis of the fanboy wars for the next few years. Unlike Nolan when he came onto the Batman franchise, Snyder is pretty well-established and people have already formed their opinions on him.

Pretty much, it's gonna be fun (well not really fun) seeing people on here lose sleep and their sh** over a simple movie.

[Tequilla]

Zack Snyder as a Batman director ??

[Majik1387]

Snyder > Nolan anyway

[shauner111]

Not even close. Substance wins over style every time.

[Lord]

Originally Posted by Majik1387

Snyder > Nolan anyway

Lol

Originally Posted by shauner111

Not even close. Substance wins over style every time.

Couldn't have said it better