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Old 05-26-2013, 11:20 PM   #801
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

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If he was a henchmen, he could have just waited for the bomb to go off since as you pointed out, both he and Talia were sure the city would be destroyed. The idea that Bane should say no to Talia's one order then and there while she's saying goodbye is kinda mute. She's saying goodbye so Bane should just interrupt her and say "You know, I'm going to just kill Batman now." Lol. Yah, I don't think so.
Assuming he was a henchman, what would he have to lose by killing Bruce at that point? They were both sure the bombs would go off, why would he be afraid of retribution when he 1. Knew Talia was going after the bomb AND this was her priority 2. He thought everyone would be dead within minutes

Admittedly, those arguing with you haven't been totally convincing in their arguments that Bane is a lackey. But your argument isn't any stronger than theirs is even though you keep trying to act like THEY are the ones being ridiculous

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Old 05-26-2013, 11:25 PM   #802
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

But you're still not answering the point....why would Bane interrupt Talia's goodbye just to say he's going to kill Batman, or do it at the spot infront of her?

And it's cool if you find my argument ridiculous, lol. I just don't think mine is

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Old 05-26-2013, 11:27 PM   #803
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

Batman only talks to Talia after the stabbing/reveal as she's the impetus for the villains' actions in the movie. She does all the talking, detonates the trigger, gives all the orders.

Bane just acts as he's revealed to be her protector. So he does what a protector does.

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Old 05-26-2013, 11:30 PM   #804
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

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But you're still not answering the point....why would Bane interrupt Talia's goodbye just to say he's going to kill Batman, or do it at the spot infront of her?

And it's cool if you find my argument ridiculous, lol. I just don't think mine is
If he wasn't her henchman why give the order in the first place?

These are her words VERBATIM: ""Don't kill him, I want him to feel the fire of 12 million souls."

Do these sound like words spoken to an equal or an order given to a subordinate? If they are equals as you say, why not let him decide whether or not he wants to kill him?

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Old 05-26-2013, 11:40 PM   #805
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

So if I give you an order MAKAVELI25, does that make you my henchman even when you don't listen? Giving an order does not entail someone is your henchman, especially when they don't obey it.

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Old 05-27-2013, 02:28 AM   #806
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

There's also the difference between taking an order and keeping with the expected plan.

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Old 05-27-2013, 09:12 AM   #807
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

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If he wasn't her henchman why give the order in the first place?

These are her words VERBATIM: ""Don't kill him, I want him to feel the fire of 12 million souls."

Do these sound like words spoken to an equal or an order given to a subordinate?
None. Or better. You can't extrapolate.

People say that to me all the time (not the dont kill him ). Don't do something. I blablabla. It's not being an henchman. The only thing i extract from such a small phrase is they know each other.

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Old 05-27-2013, 02:35 PM   #808
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

Again nobody has to agree with or like my interpretation, but in the end, I liken Bane's role to Scarecrow's in BB. Both were instrumental tools that both Al Ghul's used to further their plans. I never had a sense or saw a reason why either Scarecrow or Bane on their own, had any personal vendetta against Batman or Gotham.
Also, I didn't find Bane's defiance of Talia's order any sort of real show of authority. I never suggested that he had to kill Batman in front of Talia (not sure where that came from), but I would have liked that he at least tell her that he wanted the pleasure of killing Bats before she left. Again, face to face disobedience would have been more meaningful to me then disobeying her order AFTER she left and would presumably would never had know had the bomb gone off.
Again, not looking to change minds here, just sharing my view.

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Old 05-27-2013, 02:53 PM   #809
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

Bane became a henchman to me once his motivations became someone else's. Whether he had any reasons himself, or was responsible for much of the plan, he was still acting out someone else's goal. Talia is the big deal, given backstory and the final word on their plan. Bane is her loyal protector. That is how it is presented in the film, and I consider that a waste of Bane of course, and also a waste of Talia as her real introduction comes far too late to have any impact.

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Old 05-27-2013, 03:05 PM   #810
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

She's basically the pres and he's the general. He listens to her but def had a say in the plan. Of course he was going to do things at times he sees fit.

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Old 05-27-2013, 03:11 PM   #811
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

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Again nobody has to agree with or like my interpretation, but in the end, I liken Bane's role to Scarecrow's in BB. Both were instrumental tools that both Al Ghul's used to further their plans. I never had a sense or saw a reason why either Scarecrow or Bane on their own, had any personal vendetta against Batman or Gotham.
Also, I didn't find Bane's defiance of Talia's order any sort of real show of authority. I never suggested that he had to kill Batman in front of Talia (not sure where that came from), but I would have liked that he at least tell her that he wanted the pleasure of killing Bats before she left. Again, face to face disobedience would have been more meaningful to me then disobeying her order AFTER she left and would presumably would never had know had the bomb gone off.
Again, not looking to change minds here, just sharing my view.
Scarecrow was only a pawn. And was one again in TDKR. Bane wasn't.

And still, no one can answer me on how Bane was going to tell Talia no while she was saying goodbye to him. That would literally just ruin the entire scene of the two sharing goodbyes.

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Bane became a henchman to me once his motivations became someone else's. Whether he had any reasons himself, or was responsible for much of the plan, he was still acting out someone else's goal. Talia is the big deal, given backstory and the final word on their plan. Bane is her loyal protector. That is how it is presented in the film, and I consider that a waste of Bane of course, and also a waste of Talia as her real introduction comes far too late to have any impact.
So even if he had any reasons for himself or was responsible for parts of the plan, it doesn't matter as soon as Talia makes her reveal?

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Old 05-27-2013, 03:25 PM   #812
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

The problem is that Talia is revealed so late in the game we never get to figure out the exact nature of her relationship with Bane. Its a reveal for the sake of having a "twist," nothing more.

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Old 05-27-2013, 04:42 PM   #813
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

Well she does give Bane an order to keep Batman alive, so it gives the impression she calls the shots. It's no wonder so many people say Bane comes off as her second in command.

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Old 05-27-2013, 05:46 PM   #814
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

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So even if he had any reasons for himself or was responsible for parts of the plan, it doesn't matter as soon as Talia makes her reveal?
It doesn't matter once we know it's happening because of Talia. I'm sure many movie henchmen have motives and input but it doesn't mean jack if they're working for someone else.

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Old 05-27-2013, 06:00 PM   #815
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

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The problem is that Talia is revealed so late in the game we never get to figure out the exact nature of her relationship with Bane. Its a reveal for the sake of having a "twist," nothing more.
Have to disagree there. Yes, she's introduced too late in the game and yes, she's underdevelopped. But I do feel her introduction and her backstory adds depth to Bane's character. So I can't really look at it as a twist for the sake of it.

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Old 05-27-2013, 06:33 PM   #816
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

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Well she does give Bane an order to keep Batman alive, so it gives the impression she calls the shots. It's no wonder so many people say Bane comes off as her second in command.
Again was it an "order" or keeping with the original plan as devised? I can imagine batman was always intended to be alive when the city is destroyed and that's something bane was planning to follow.

Except he likely didn't expect that beating he just took and his emotions came into play. Even If i had an equal partnership with someone i'd expect them to keep to whatever plan we've devised and that's regardless of me being the boss or not.

Bane was a good deal older than talia it's revealed i doubt the power structure was that she was his boss seeing as he's known her since she was a child and he was already an adult.

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Old 05-27-2013, 08:36 PM   #817
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

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Again was it an "order" or keeping with the original plan as devised?
Sounded like an order, because if it was part of the original plan she wouldn't have to tell him not kill Batman would she?

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Bane was a good deal older than talia it's revealed i doubt the power structure was that she was his boss seeing as he's known her since she was a child and he was already an adult.
Age has nothing to do with it. Bane was willing to die in the pit just to protect Talia. He stood by her after her father kicked his ass out of the LOS. He was willing to die in Gotham for her.

His loyalty and devotion to her was obvious. Why wouldn't he be following her orders when he's willing to die for her? The age gap was a non entity.

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Old 05-27-2013, 08:50 PM   #818
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It doesn't matter if Bane is Talia's lackey or not (I personally think it's clear that Talia was the leader all along, especially when "daddy Al Ghul" was the leader before hand). Bane just reeked of her personally puppy dog, whether he didn't follow orders behind her back or not.


Once you find out that the character wasn't the child, didn't escape the pit, and then this Talia Taters character shows up purely for the twist and takes all the mystique away it just takes a lot away from Bane.

Then he's literally tossed aside by Catwoman and forgotten. He's lame in my opinion, whether he's the femme fatale's side kick or not. Bane has yet to be put on the big screen correctly and given justice as far as I'm concerned. Shumacher's Bane and Nolan's Bane are two extreme steps in polar opposite directions.

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Old 05-27-2013, 08:55 PM   #819
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

I thought the Bane/Talia combo was like the perfect cocktail of Bane of the Demon, the Demon Trilogy, Vengeance of Bane and Knightfall. Elements were re-arranged and mixed up, but to me it was the best kind of adaptation: using the source material as inspiration to tell your own, different story.

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Old 05-27-2013, 09:00 PM   #820
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

Which makes it all the more tragic. Hardy did an amazing acting job and Nolan/Hemming did an amazing job of reinterpreting the look of Bane for this series. Whether you consider Bane's role as subordinate to Talia (which I believe) or even if you look at it as Bane being Talia's equal in the LOS, I felt that the performance and reinterpretation warranted Bane having no equal and wished he has worked alone. I honestly didn't feel Talia's inclusion or Marion's acting did anything to further enhance Hardy's performance or Bane's presence.

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Old 05-27-2013, 09:00 PM   #821
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

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I thought the Bane/Talia combo was like the perfect cocktail of Bane of the Demon, the Demon Trilogy, Vengeance of Bane and Knightfall. Elements were re-arranged and mixed up, but to me it was the best kind of adaptation: using the source material as inspiration to tell your own, different story.




Not really, unless you mean "cocktail" as in just taking character in the same story and using them in your own. In Vengeance of Bane and Knightfall, Bane is a self made man.



In the Demon stories, well, I'll show you.































Instead we got this,









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Old 05-27-2013, 09:24 PM   #822
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX

That drawing is awesome, I love it!

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Old 05-27-2013, 09:29 PM   #823
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Default Re: Tom Hardy as Bane XXX



Also Bane.


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Old 05-27-2013, 09:38 PM   #824
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The problem is that Talia is revealed so late in the game we never get to figure out the exact nature of her relationship with Bane. Its a reveal for the sake of having a "twist," nothing more.
I'll admit the twist is a bit of a head scratcher to happen so late, but it doesn't bother me as much because of the fact that Bane is the voice and the muscle of this siege. If it's all on Talia, then great, BUT nothing also tells me it's all Talia in regards to breaking the prisoners out of Blackgate or holding a kangaroo court on the rich and the cops.

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It doesn't matter once we know it's happening because of Talia. I'm sure many movie henchmen have motives and input but it doesn't mean jack if they're working for someone else.
So everything else that you can't possibly tie to Talia is just hogwash once Talia makes her reveal?

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I thought the Bane/Talia combo was like the perfect cocktail of Bane of the Demon, the Demon Trilogy, Vengeance of Bane and Knightfall. Elements were re-arranged and mixed up, but to me it was the best kind of adaptation: using the source material as inspiration to tell your own, different story.
Agree

To me, I love the idea that Bane protected Talia as a child and teams with her on her goal of destroying Gotham. Even if Talia hates her father for banishing Bane, he did save Bane from the Pit and Ra's is Talia's father; he dies and you have these two people that would of course honor Ra's al Ghul.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:20 PM   #825
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Not really, unless you mean "cocktail" as in just taking character in the same story and using them in your own. In Vengeance of Bane and Knightfall, Bane is a self made man.
That includes the switching around of certain character histories. That's why I said the Bane/Talia combo, not just "Bane". I specifically used the word "cocktail" because it's a blending of familiar individual elements from all those books with a unique result. Many of the key ideas from all of those books are paid tribute to in one form or another.

Also, Bane was self-made enough to be Talia's protector in the pit. It wasn't like he was just some teddy bear before Ra's scooped him out. He still fought and killed people down there prior to his LOS training. The whole point of Bane being "self-made" in the comics is to mirror Bruce. Well, he was equally self-made as Bruce was in this version of the story too. Essentially a good brawler before receiving LOS training. Only Bane never had a problem killing.

And the thing is, people act as if the Talia twist "took away" the Bane of the comics but that's not even really the case. Even before the twist, we're meant to think Bane escaped the prison as a child...which is completely different from the idea in the comics that he studied and trained for years, underwent supersoldier serum tests etc. Those ideas were never truly present in the movie, so the Talia twist doesn't even rob him of much in the first place. Whether it's Talia or Bane, it's still basically just a scared kid with nothing to live for making a leap of faith.

However, where the movie deviated from the comics, it added something worthwhile too. Bane still had a drive and purpose in the prison- it just wasn't simply to escape and prove his awesomeness to the world (which has always rung shallow to me...especially the hackneyed bat nightmare). No, this Bane had a streak of selflessness and compassion in him. To you that makes him weaker, I guess. To me it makes Bane a much more respectable and noble character than the sexually frustrated, egocentric, self-deluded character that appears in the pages of Bane of the Demon. And that nobility seems to ring so true to what Bane should be all about IMO, because Bane is very much the hero of his own story. That's true of many villains, but especially so in Bane's case, serving very much as a dark mirror for Bruce/Batman in the mythos. And yet, Bane of the Demon still has some great ideas that the movie manages to suggest, such as Ra's not having the highest level of respect for Bane despite initially considering him as a successor, Bane wanting to succeed/surpass Ra's, even the idea of the pit that one has to climb out of seems to have roots in that book.

I don't know, I know you'll disagree with everything I've said here, but to me movie Bane was a really great, memorable character. I mean, it's almost a year later and I'm still enjoying talking about him.

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