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View Poll Results: Were you shocked at the Talia reveal?
Yes 9 17.65%
No 42 82.35%
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Old 05-27-2013, 09:23 PM   #101
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

I was firstly shocked but disappointment came right behind. Talia didn't have the charisma to be an al Ghul's descendant or the brain behind the biggest terrorist net ever. It was underwhelming and turned Bane into a sad lackey in love.

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Old 05-27-2013, 09:26 PM   #102
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

I got spoiled before I watched the film, that was my own fault.

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Old 05-27-2013, 10:45 PM   #103
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I got spoiled before I watched the film, that was my own fault.
In cases like this, that might be an advantage.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:10 PM   #104
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

I remember when I first watched the film, when Talia stabs Batman; I was thinking "alright, this should pay off". I was so confused when she just dies like two scenes later, lol.

Even if we all saw it coming, they should have given Talia at least as much screen time, post-reveal, as Ra's did in BB and Two-Face in TDK.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:30 PM   #105
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I remember when I first watched the film, when Talia stabs Batman; I was thinking "alright, this should pay off". I was so confused when she just dies like two scenes later, lol.

Even if we all saw it coming, they should have given Talia at least as much screen time, post-reveal, as Ra's did in BB and Two-Face in TDK.
Yes, the character goes totally underdeveloped. Her death has no weight at all.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:32 PM   #106
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

It doesn't help that it was a horribly acted death, too.

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Old 05-28-2013, 12:00 AM   #107
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It doesn't help that it was a horribly acted death, too.
Lol, no it doesn't.

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Old 05-28-2013, 12:19 AM   #108
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

The death scene had no bearing on my opinion of Talia as a character overall.

In fact Talia to me was more of an idea to me than an actual character in the film. She's kind of the seed of evil at the heart of the movie, but certainly not the most memorable character. But she served her purpose.

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Old 05-28-2013, 01:00 AM   #109
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

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The death scene had no bearing on my opinion of Talia as a character overall.

In fact Talia to me was more of an idea to me than an actual character in the film. She's kind of the seed of evil at the heart of the movie, but certainly not the most memorable character. But she served her purpose.
Pretty much. It is a bit of a waste of the character, but this goes back to the idea that there were indeed a bit too many new characters present in TDKR.

BatLobster, do you think the movie could've worked without Talia? I know at one point I thought that it would've been good had they introduced Talia earlier. Like BB earlier. Perhaps she could've gotten a bit more character development that way.

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Old 05-28-2013, 01:56 AM   #110
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Pretty much. It is a bit of a waste of the character, but this goes back to the idea that there were indeed a bit too many new characters present in TDKR.

BatLobster, do you think the movie could've worked without Talia? I know at one point I thought that it would've been good had they introduced Talia earlier. Like BB earlier. Perhaps she could've gotten a bit more character development that way.
I think it'd just be completely different movie without Talia. You'd pretty much have to lose the whole Wayne Enterprises energy project subplot without her. So the movie would lose the aspect of Bruce's wealth being turned against him, along with the element of Bruce attempting to save the world outside the cowl but having to live with the paranoia that "one man's tool is another man's weapon". All of which are great thematic and character touches for Bruce.

Then there's the factor that it'd be kind of strange to have a movie dealing with the League of Shadows while not including a living al Ghul in the storyline. I think, given our knowledge of the mythos, Talia would feel missing from the story if she wasn't there. You'd also lose some of the legacy themes which are important, unless of course they actually made Bane the son of Ra's al Ghul which...could've potentially rubbed more fans the wrong way. Either way, given that Ra's was dead and there was no Lazarus Pit in this universe, I thought him having a child was the purest and simplest way to get across the idea of his "immortality".

I also thought it was kind of clever how Miranda was a red herring for Bruce and effectively becomes his "new Rachel", the person he hangs his hopes on a normal life for. It was not a bad way to divert attention from the impending BatCat happy ending, but it's also an extension of the Bruce/Bane dark mirror aspect as Miranda is in many ways a dark mirror of Rachel.

Overall I would say that the movie could've worked without Talia but I do think the best and richest version of this particular movie does include Talia one way or another. I agree that it would've been great if she could have been introduced in BB, but alas, there are many reasons why that didn't happen.

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:07 PM   #111
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

^ Agreed, dude. I'm pretty sure a lot of people are just upset with how Talia was dealt with in the film, as was I. But like BatLobsterRises said, you can't have a film about Ra's' legacy and not have an Al Ghul intertwined in the story.

If anyone needed to get the boot it's Blake, lol. But then you pretty much have to kill off Bruce. So yeah, that's another can of worms.

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Old 05-28-2013, 04:33 PM   #112
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

The film definitely needed to use Talia al Ghul because it brings back the League of Shadows, which is necessary, imo(and especially if Nolan wanted to end Bruce Wayne's story arc...the best way to do it is bring back what helped his version of Bruce even become Batman), but Talia needed a bit more development. If the third act was longer, Talia could have still made her reveal then if she was given more time.

I do like BatLobster's assessment with Talia though...she was more of an idea than a character. As much as Bruce had a new mindset of starting his life over, Talia had the mindset of just destroying a city filled with demons while Bruce was trying to walk away from his own past demons, but he still needed to save it before he could leave.

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Old 05-28-2013, 11:20 PM   #113
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
I think it'd just be completely different movie without Talia. You'd pretty much have to lose the whole Wayne Enterprises energy project subplot without her. So the movie would lose the aspect of Bruce's wealth being turned against him, along with the element of Bruce attempting to save the world outside the cowl but having to live with the paranoia that "one man's tool is another man's weapon". All of which are great thematic and character touches for Bruce.

Then there's the factor that it'd be kind of strange to have a movie dealing with the League of Shadows while not including a living al Ghul in the storyline. I think, given our knowledge of the mythos, Talia would feel missing from the story if she wasn't there. You'd also lose some of the legacy themes which are important, unless of course they actually made Bane the son of Ra's al Ghul which...could've potentially rubbed more fans the wrong way. Either way, given that Ra's was dead and there was no Lazarus Pit in this universe, I thought him having a child was the purest and simplest way to get across the idea of his "immortality".

I also thought it was kind of clever how Miranda was a red herring for Bruce and effectively becomes his "new Rachel", the person he hangs his hopes on a normal life for. It was not a bad way to divert attention from the impending BatCat happy ending, but it's also an extension of the Bruce/Bane dark mirror aspect as Miranda is in many ways a dark mirror of Rachel.

Overall I would say that the movie could've worked without Talia but I do think the best and richest version of this particular movie does include Talia one way or another. I agree that it would've been great if she could have been introduced in BB, but alas, there are many reasons why that didn't happen.
Excellent points all across the board.

I remember a poster on these forums (I think it was Fenrir) writing that he would've liked to have seen Talia as in infiltrator in both WE and Bane's group of mercenaries. So she would've been essentially working behind both Bruce and Bane's back. I think it would've been interesting - certainly people complaining about how Talia's role made Bane look like a henchman would probably not have minded. At the same time, it robs Bane of that extra layer of humanity he gains from the Talia reveal. Not to mention, I do like the Talia/Rachel parallel.

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:57 AM   #114
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I think people would have minded that in the sense that if Talia is working behind the backs of both Bruce and Bane, that's two highly intelligent people that are unaware of Talia's action rather than the complaints now of Bruce having no knowledge of Talia prior. If some hate the idea that Bane was a "henchman" to Talia, I could bet some will view it as disrespectful that Talia even worked behind Bane's back and probably ended up killing him.

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Old 05-29-2013, 12:44 PM   #115
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Default Re: Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

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I think people would have minded that in the sense that if Talia is working behind the backs of both Bruce and Bane, that's two highly intelligent people that are unaware of Talia's action rather than the complaints now of Bruce having no knowledge of Talia prior. If some hate the idea that Bane was a "henchman" to Talia, I could bet some will view it as disrespectful that Talia even worked behind Bane's back and probably ended up killing him.
Very true. The simple fact is you can't satisfy everyone.

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