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#51 | |
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#52 | ||||||||||||||
Professor of Power
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In the context of our discussion, where everything is white, something being a different color would make the story more interesting. Why is this thing black, what does that mean for the story? Having everyone wearing different colors, now it actually starts to look like the real world, like these are real people we live around. Quote:
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Fallacy is not whether information is true or not, it is the intellectual integrity of how you use it. In this case the Slippery Slope fallacy is when the arguer presupposes that an undesirable action leads to an even more undesirable action, without establishing the cause and effect. In this case, representing racial diversity, does not necessarily lead to representing racial diversity based on population samples. (and if so, of what, of the country? The city? the state? the job field?) Not only would it be silly to do so, but there are many counter examples of diversity that have done no such thing, thus disproving the relationship you assumed. As such, your argument becomes textbook slippery slope. But you're not content to slide there, you then continue to warn about the dangers of this path, by creating an even more extreme example where not only are all types of diversity represented - even ones that do not fit the motivation given for using racial diversity - even ones that conflict with the very essence of the story. And not just represented, but make up the entirety of the central cast, the entirety of the story, where they are overrepresented. You've painted a picture where a little less under-representing of one thing is supposed to lead to over-representing of something totally different. Then you've labelled anyone who disagrees with this textbook fallacy a hypocrite, adding a little ad hominem kickback at the bottom of the slippery slope. So no, Spider - Man, just no. Quote:
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X-Men TV Show Ideas With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science." Last edited by DrCosmic; 05-28-2013 at 07:55 PM. |
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#53 | ||||||
Professor of Power
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For updating, many fans ignore the fact that these characters were originally intended to represent the sixties and seventies. That's not how we want them to be now. We want them to be updated... except for race. Don't update that, keep that the same, but it's okay to change everything else from what was originally intended. This of course draws the question of what exactly was originally intended, and that would actually be a great convo for this thread. Quote:
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Oddly, though, you do have to give them a new suit, but having the same name makes it easier to get other people on board. And while you might think it's stupid, Miles Morales' Spider-Man is one of the few consistently great books there are.
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X-Men TV Show Ideas With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science." Last edited by DrCosmic; 05-28-2013 at 08:45 PM. |
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#54 |
Que bolá con el timbeque?
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I believe his points about diversity having to be thought of as something more than race are valid, and that is what I was commenting about, not his beef with your point of view or assumptions of your beliefs.
I will add that I disagree with you on comics and superheroes being about physically superior beings and therefore automatically excluding the obese and handicapped. That might have been true in the golden and silver age of comics but there is no reason to continue with that mentality nowadays.
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"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it." -- Peter David |
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#55 |
Que bolá con el timbeque?
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No, you misunderstood. He didn't say you and I were the same person.
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"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it." -- Peter David |
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#56 | |
Professor of Power
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So now you have me thinking about characters who I wouldn't mind seeing with physical handicaps. Kudos.
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X-Men TV Show Ideas With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science." |
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#57 | |
Que bolá con el timbeque?
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I find "flawed" characters very interesting, for the same reasons you mentioned. I think that's probably why I've gravitated to Marvel more often than other companies, because they tend to be good at having characters with complex personal issues. I think when you add a physical disability, that ups the ante even more.
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"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it." -- Peter David |
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#58 | |
Side-Kick
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2. Ok so stories need to be diverse. I agree, but we have some of that already for a jumping off point. Captain America stories are diverse thanks to Falcon. Iron Man stories are diverse thanks to Rhodey. Spidey's got the Robinsons, Prowler ect. If your assuming I want all characters in each story to be a particular race, your once again making offensive assumptions. It also gives the option of not only creating new 'diverse' heroes, but new diverse supporting characters. That would solve that problem, not to mention there is already those characters as I've just mentioned. 3. The fact is I want the comic characters to be as close to the source material in film. Also, not every comic book character was created in the 1960's. Again, you worded it like that for a reason. I'm not stupid. 4. Sorry, but when someone seemingly implies I'm racist, I get a little pissed off. Also, comparing someone with 'ill motivated' people over something like this is extremely offensive. If when you were in school you wouldn't compare your teachers to Hitler because, like a dictator, they had ultimate authority, would you? 5. So we agree. Its EASIER for Marvel or DC or whoever to legacy characters or whatever. I think thats lazy. Nine times out of ten, the easiest way to do something in art, especially storytelling, is sloppy and weak. I don't want Marvel doing that. Do the hard thing and the hard work will be rewarded with some great characters. But, the internet is a silly thing and emotions can't always be correlated, so perhaps I assumed too much on you implying I'm racist, but you clearly wrongly assumed a few things on my thoughts on the subject. Regardless, it doesn't matter. I apologize for being a bit hostile.
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"If you figure a way to live without serving a master, any master, then let the rest of us know, will you? For you'd be the first person in the history of the world." -LANCASTER DODD Last edited by weezerspider; 05-29-2013 at 12:04 AM. |
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#59 | |||||||||||||
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Perhaps in your zeal to show how clever you are, you shouldn’t address one poster in a response to another. I don’t claim to know what you think. I have read what you have posted which has been about nothing but diversity in the context of race. I merely pointed out that if you truly value diversity, there is much more to it than race which your posts suggest is all you care about. Quote:
Funny you choose 1965 so you can exclude Panther, arguably the most popular black character. But Wolverine and the modern day X-Men came later and have had much greater success. The Punisher, likewise. Now as I said ‘success’ and ‘sustainability’ are subjective but if you compare apples to apples, it is clear that black heroes just don’t have the staying power of white ones. That isn’t a knock and it isn’t an opinion. It is a fact. Quote:
It would be grammatically correct to replace ‘updating’ with ‘making improvements’ in the context of your sentence. The problem is that it then makes your whole point grammatically incorrect. You’re basically saying: ‘On one hand changing race is making an improvement but on the other hand diversity (changing race, by your definition) makes everything better. It would be the same as saying ‘On one hand it is great but on the other hand it is wonderful’. Doesn’t make a lot of sense. Quote:
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And EVERYONE has to be handicapped to warrant including that demographic? Not ‘everyone’ is black. Or white. Why does this one segment of society require 100% compliance to justify inclusion? Quote:
See how you use numbers? These are statistics. That makes it science, not art. When you start throwing numbers around, you are no longer talking aesthetics no matter how deluded you are that you think so. YOU are the one who brought ‘population samples’ to the discussion of race and diversity. I merely made the numbers more specific using available demographic data. So if it is a slippery slope, it began with your comments, not mine. Quote:
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When I was a kid, Jimmie Walker was the coolest cat around. All my friends used to do the strut and say “Dyno-mite!” Michael Jordan is one of my heroes. But never once did I ever think “I just wish one of them was white so I could relate to them more” or “Man, if JJ was white and adopted into the family, it would sure make the story more interesting!” I didn’t say you were a hypocrite for not agreeing with me. I said you are a hypocrite for throwing around the term diversity in such a broad manner but then only pigeon-holing it specifically to race to suit your own desires while denying the legitimacy of other minorities’ desires to be represented based on the same argument. Quote:
There is no problem. It again all comes down to opinion. In mine, merely changing the race of an existing character does nothing to enhance a story. I do not think that if Stan Lee had somehow changed Johnny black in issue #27 of the FF, it would have done anything to improve to stories, the sales, anything. It might have made the small comic-reading portion of 11% of the American public happy. Quote:
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I’m not retracting anything. I never offered advice, only opinion. And I offered it AS opinion as opposed to you trying to do so as fact. You can take it anyway you want. I’m sure to take it other than you’ve implied would only serve to open your eyes to how biased your viewpoint is. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, just that you seem incapable of seeing it. Last edited by Spider - Man; 05-29-2013 at 08:41 AM. |
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#60 | |
Campeador Boricua
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Is it gimmicky? A little. But it's not like their changing Krypton to be future Earth or something. Back when I was a kid they made Harvey Dent black and it turned out okay. But then they made Two Face white and suddenly racial accuracy's not that important. |
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#61 | ||||||||||||||||||||
Professor of Power
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What we do see is a direct correlation between time created and popularity. This not only explains the weak correlation between race and popularity, but also explains why the spottily written Luke Cage is more popular than the much better written Invincible. Quote:
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Again, I do not make it absolute, and no, changing everything to be another color cannot be diversity if they're still all the same color. Quote:
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"So let them do what they will and let the results speak for themselves." That's a warning where I come from. If I said that I want the races changed, please quote me. I also was clear on the relation between diversity and story and sales is not a direct or instantaneous one. Over- and under- represented are based on population samples, but that's still not the same as setting a quota for population, neither does it create any of the other fallacious links that you suggested. Quote:
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And as I said, I wasn't talking about capability, I was talking about story, the story of a handicapped person is not the story of a physically superior person, but someone overcoming their limitations to do things that they could not have done before. Now, as demonstrated by Daredevil, that idea is not mutually exclusive with that of a power fantasy. That said, some superhero stories don't really fit with the handicap subplot very well, Fantastic Four, outside of Ben, would be among them. Spider-Man, surprisingly, would. Quote:
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X-Men TV Show Ideas With a Ph.D in Metascience
"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science." Last edited by DrCosmic; 05-29-2013 at 05:53 PM. |
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#62 | |||||
Professor of Power
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I did word it like that for a reason, but, as I've explained, it's not to call you racist. Quote:
So when someone says something to the effect of "I just want things to stay the same" when it comes to race, I immediately think of all of those people. Maybe it's not nice to compare you to all those complicit folk, but the correlation seems so direct, I feel like it bears mentioning. Quote:
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"Sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science." |
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#63 |
Papa Spank
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I'm an African-American, and in general all race changes in comics and comic-based movies bother me. That's not to say that Sam Jackson, Kerry Washington and Michael Clarke Duncan didn't do well in their roles...they did. They're all talented actors, as are Laurence Fishburne and Jamie Foxx, who I am sure will do a great job as Perry White and Electro. Further, I am happy to see actors who share my ethnicity get opportunities in potential blockbuster films. But I'm old, and I'm a traditionalist. My preference is to see a character's race remain consistent between their comic book history and their portrayal on screen.
Additionally, I have no desire to see a Black Spider-man, Human Torch, Superman, Wonder Woman, Catwoman or anyone else. I want to see development of the Black characters that already exist, and the creation of new ones. I want to see some talented writer at Marvel give me a reason to become even more invested in Monica Rambeau. Make me care about Falcon for the first time ever. Someone at DC make me fully embrace Mal and Karen Duncan. But giving me a Black Captain America or Firestorm? Personally, I find that to be lazy and uninspired. |
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#64 | |
Que bolá con el timbeque?
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I don't understand why this hasn't happened already. I think Rambeau is awesome and I'd love to see her in the limelight. If Jessica Drew was resurrected from obscurity and made a key player again then why can't they do the same with Monica? Even when they create new characters that show promise they end up giving up on them prematurely. Cecilia Reyes over at the X-books is a good example.
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"A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it." -- Peter David |
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#65 | |
Side-Kick
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![]() Taking the safe route is just as meh in art. Safe and lazy are the same words when it comes to storytelling. Neither benefits good storytelling. You are quite the narrow-minded person, comparing people to racists and segregations and such, acting like its no big deal. I don't have time to discuss this and fill this thread in a pissing contest. My last comment tried to make peace, but once again you make offensive comparisons. I'm done. If you want to civilly discuss the issue without the name calling and offensive comparisons, I'm happy to. Until then, good day.
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"If you figure a way to live without serving a master, any master, then let the rest of us know, will you? For you'd be the first person in the history of the world." -LANCASTER DODD Last edited by weezerspider; 05-29-2013 at 11:39 PM. |
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#66 | ||||||||||||||
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First, I don’t pretend to know all that you care about so would be in no position to declare it reasonable or not. The topic is apparently diversity which you say you have given examples of with relation to race, personality and clothing. I pointed out that you having such a narrow focus on diversity in the entirety of everything that could constitute it, ignoring so much more, indicates that you are only focused on the aspects of diversity that specifically address your personal desires. I said there was nothing wrong with that in itself except that you then try to make your opinion something more than opinion, attempting to use representation or diversity as a moral right instead of just a preference. Quote:
See above. You make it too easy. Show me. Well, I don’t know them each by name but I can draw a logical conclusion when a bunch of people state on this very board how it is not enough to merely add new black characters because they just don’t gain the popularity of the classic ones and the only way to really even the playing field is to make some of the more popular white characters black. You don’t really get much more popular than ol’ Spidey. So I would conclude that all of those in favor of changing more popular white characters black would have Spidey at or near the top of their list. Just common sense based on posts in this and similar threads. Which is why I specifically stated the MODERN DAY X-men team and title (launched in ’74 I think). Quote:
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b. I didn’t even know Cage had a comic currently out. In March, Invincible came in 137. If you see Cage on there, let me know. http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2013/2013-03.html Quote:
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And BTW, I just read your post in the BP thread where you said you wanted a film where Panther has got ‘it’ figured out all along, a statement that another poster (apparently on behalf of anyone who read it) asked you to clarify. You then attempt to do so and then admit that even your attempt is convoluted. See, this is one of your problems as I see it – you seem to live in your own little world and when you ramble off some random thought that skitters across your brain, you automatically assume everyone just knows what you’re thinking. Case in point, your context. Quote:
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You said: “all the people who make the films seem to think that updating the property is more important than staying true to the comics so so I'll go ahead and join them in their delusions about art, even when mixing it up or updating happens to include race.” – another absolute statement to try and make it seem like not just the majority but in fact 100% of the filmmakers see things as you do, that updating the property (I am assuming you are referring to changing race) being more important than staying true to the comics when in fact this has only been the case a handful of times. Last edited by Spider - Man; 05-30-2013 at 11:07 AM. |
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#67 | ||||||||||
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Nah, that was just a bit of fun. But you did say: I'll go ahead and join them in their delusions about art, even when mixing it up or updating happens to include race. If it doesn’t say you want it, it definitely sounds like you favor it! Quote:
See what I said above about this. I’m not wasting my time addressing the same thing repeatedly. Quote:
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Yeah, I can see how important ‘story’ is to you. Quote:
Listen, the people who make these movies don’t give a **** about what I have a problem with or what you have a problem with. All we have is our own opinions and preferences. And as the saying goes, that and $1.55 will get you a cup of Starbucks. I would prefer that they don’t make Johnny black but what am I gonna do if they do? What are you gonna do if they don’t? You ask stupid questions. Quote:
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Ok, so let me just ask you: is NOT changing the race of any of the FF in the new film wrong? *sigh* yes, cos, I said: if anyone wants diversity, create more characters. So yes, if anyone INCLUDING FILMMAKERS wants diversity, let them create more characters (as opposed to changing the race of existing ones). I guess for once we agree. Last edited by Spider - Man; 05-30-2013 at 11:10 AM. |
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#68 |
Not a Side-Kick
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How exactly is "true to the source material" 'lazy'?
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