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View Poll Results: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...
Love it! 92 36.51%
It's okay... 56 22.22%
Hate it! 104 41.27%
Voters: 252. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-03-2013, 10:13 AM   #751
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Really? You think that Kingsley's portrayal *wasn't* a racist caricature....? Okay.

Comic-book Mandarin was a racist caricature of Asians that was (stereo)typical of Western views of Communist China/Vietnam/North Korea back in the 60s; movie "Mandarin" updates the geography (as IM1 did by moving Iron Man's origin story from the Vietnam War to the war in Afghanistan) and makes him a caricature of our stereotypical views of Muslims today.

Had Kingsley Mandarin been played straight, without any subterfuge at all, then there'd still be a ton of moral outrage aimed at this movie: but it wouldn't be for a plot twist that offends a vocal minority of comic-book purists (with selective memories); it would be for offending a much broader audience seeing the movie stoop to the usual racist portrayal of "all Muslims are terrorists."
What are you talking about? Movies don't do this. But if someone walking out of a movie thinking this then I think it's really more their problem then that of the film itself. How would it offend this "broader audience", as he wasn't muslim? Now if want to talk clothes and religion and stuff then we might have something, but you specifically brought up race for some reason. Is there something you'd like tell us?
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That's why the Mandarin Twist works so very well, and can *only* work the way it was rolled out, on three level:
Or maybe they just could've not done it at all.
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(a) making us question our own racist views, but with contemporary Muslims in the crosshairs instead of outdated East Asian Commies;
What? How does it do this? Ben Kingsley's Mandarin didn't even look muslim.
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(b) satirizing our own "War on Terror" as chasing boogeymen of our own creation;
"our"? You keep using that word. Who exactly are you trying to force into this little bubble of yours? Because I've never been a part of or cared about this ****. Unless it was in a movie and entertaining.
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(c) on a genre/comic-book level, illustrating not only how absurd the character is in the comics, but also deconstructing the hackneyed old trope that a superhero *has* to have a kickass nemesis to be considered relevant.
Except they do.

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Old 06-03-2013, 11:18 AM   #752
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by TheWallCrawler View Post
It is incredibly naive to think that some or many terrorist leaders in our world aren't very close to stereotypes. Not all, but some of them. And a muslim terrorist leader that supports chinese iconography isn't exactly a stereotype, not that I know of. Besides, Iron Man 1 wasn't much different in the muslim terrorism respect so where's the "ton of moral outrage" on that one?

Also, how is this supposed to be a big deal when there are a lot worse stereotypes of Russian bad guys still in films today, but there's no "ton of moral outrage" on that one? I'm sure there are few guys complainging about it in blogs, but really, is there a ton of outrage?

For my last point: if the original Mandarin was more of a stereotype of the events in 60's, a thing of the past, and the muslim stereotype is more relevant to us now, it would've been better ok to do something close to the comic book chinese version right? If you think that making a Chinese guy that supports iconography of his own country and does a little karate/kung fu would be making an unacceptable stereotype that everyone would rally over then you really need to wake up and stop grasping at straws just to defend this movie to death
The only one grasping at straws here is you in trying to *attack* this movie to death. I'll defend it to death as long as you attack it to death, how's that?

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What are you talking about? Movies don't do this. But if someone walking out of a movie thinking this then I think it's really more their problem then that of the film itself. How would it offend this "broader audience", as he wasn't muslim? Now if want to talk clothes and religion and stuff then we might have something, but you specifically brought up race for some reason. Is there something you'd like tell us?
Kingsley's decoy was implicitly Muslim, and implicitly operated out of Afghanistan/Pakistan. Where did Iron Patriot's wild goose chases take him? To Muslim "strongholds" in Afghanistan and Pakistan, that turned out to be red herrings. What part of this did you miss...?




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Or maybe they just could've not done it at all.
Sure. And then they could have made it into a crappy movie that wouldn't make over a billion dollars, like this one did.

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What? How does it do this? Ben Kingsley's Mandarin didn't even look muslim.
See above.

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"our"? You keep using that word. Who exactly are you trying to force into this little bubble of yours? Because I've never been a part of or cared about this ****. Unless it was in a movie and entertaining.
Audiences in general, especially American ones. Apologies if that doesn't include you.


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Except they do.
No. They don't. When has Hulk ever had a kickass nemesis? Has he suffered for having a ****** rogues gallery? Nope. Same with Iron Man. Same with a lot of heroes. Yes, Bats and Supes and Spidey and the FF are blessed with great villains and extensive rogues galleries, but that doesn't mean *all* superheroes have needed that to become icons. Iron Man, Hulk and Wonder Woman in particular are certainly proof of that. Flash, too. And Daredevil. And Luke Cage and Iron Fist. And Moon Knight. Elektra. You want me to make a bigger list?

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Old 06-03-2013, 12:13 PM   #753
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Seriously?

re·tard·ed

adjective \ri-ˈtärd-əd\ (Medical Dictionary)
Medical Definition of RETARDED

sometimes offensive : slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development : characterized by mental retardation

This new PC world we live in is out of control. I chose my words because that's what I wanted to say and anyone reading it could understand my meaning. Saying the mask looks stupid doesn't quite fit.

Not going all in-depth of my family biznass but I have an Aunt w/ Down-syndrone and two of her kids also have it. My son was once diagnosed on the Austism scale and some quack doctor told my wife and I that he was mentally retarded.

If you are offended by something I wrote then that's your problem. You feeling that someone is insensitive is you moreso being insecure.
Spin it any way you want, just don't use the word or I will report you the next time you do because it IS offensive.

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Old 06-03-2013, 01:54 PM   #754
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Kingsley's decoy was implicitly Muslim, and implicitly operated out of Afghanistan/Pakistan. Where did Iron Patriot's wild goose chases take him? To Muslim "strongholds" in Afghanistan and Pakistan, that turned out to be red herrings. What part of this did you miss...?
The part where he's a muslim. Which he wasn't. It was pretty clear, even in the trailers, that he wasn't a muslim. I know I thought he was an american who hated his country for the evil and lies it had bestowed upon the world. I'd say that what you're refering to by calling him a muslim is you're assumption of his religon, but you yourself have brought up the race issue several times (racist, racism, racial cariacature, racist stereotype), so I can only come to the conclusion that it's his iconography (clothing, jewelry etc.), his beard, or that he's a terrorist, and if that's the case, then, I have to ask: Who's really the one forming a racist stereotype here?
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Sure. And then they could have made it into a crappy movie that wouldn't make over a billion dollars, like this one did.
It is a crappy movie. How much money it makes isn't gonna change that.
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See above.
He's still not a muslim.
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Audiences in general, especially American ones. Apologies if that doesn't include you.
I'm american. I don't see what that has to do with caring.
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No. They don't. When has Hulk ever had a kickass nemesis? Has he suffered for having a ****** rogues gallery? Nope. Same with Iron Man. Same with a lot of heroes. Yes, Bats and Supes and Spidey and the FF are blessed with great villains and extensive rogues galleries, but that doesn't mean *all* superheroes have needed that to become icons. Iron Man, Hulk and Wonder Woman in particular are certainly proof of that. Flash, too. And Daredevil. And Luke Cage and Iron Fist. And Moon Knight. Elektra. You want me to make a bigger list?
I think they have fine enough villains. The fact is that very few people would see a movie about Iron Man going to AA.


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Old 06-03-2013, 02:03 PM   #755
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Much better.

But it was already great when Kinglsey "was" the Mandarin. That's what's so annoying. They got the perfect tone for the character, but decided what the hell, this is better off turning into a comedy.
Bullpucky! Kingsley's character was NOTHING like The Mandarin. The Mandarin is all about rage and machismo, a hypermasculine maniac who has more in common with Gorilla Grodd or Bane than with Fu Manchu or Ra's Al Ghul.


.
.
I don't understand why this keeps coming up no matter how many times I refute it. The Mandarin is not a calm, logical little guy making coldly philosophical speeches about how this is ultimately retaliation for western imperialism. The Mandarin is a raging maniac who loves to karate-chop his problems away.
.
.


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Old 06-03-2013, 03:24 PM   #756
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I will just say this: Iron Man 3's Ten Rings retcons Iron Man's Ten Rings.

You can't have a terrorist ring that actually felt like a terrorist ring become such a falsehood that was just created only to hide failed attempts at a program, as Killian used to hide his Extremis mistakes and only create this Mandarin mock up to be the leader of said terrorist organization. The Ten Rings were known already as going into villages and ransacking them and now the only bombings they are involved in are where failed Extremis projects exploded. IM3's version has nothing to do with the first film's version except for the logo.

I'm not a fan of that either, and it's a slap to the face that resembles Flint Marko being Uncle Ben's real killer.

And I too have a problem with Killian calling himself the true Mandarin. Yes, he created the character, but he also created a caricature of The Mandarin, while Killian himself is this businessman/scientist.
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Originally Posted by TheWallCrawler View Post
The difference is that "the guy behind the curtain" isn't in it for any ruse like Killian. It's not the same.

in spirit the made up persona, or the so called puppet, "The Mandarin" is who leads the Ten Rings, and Killian, the pupper master, is a completely different persona himself with different ideology and motivations than what the puppet's made up persona is. What makes my point even more valid is that his own terrorist ring isn't in on the secret and doesn't connect Killian physically with the concept of Mandarin, so the Mandarin even before Trevor Slattery was just a puppet in theory, a separate persona. Who physically has the status doesn't even matter
Pretty much sums it all up for me

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Old 06-03-2013, 03:51 PM   #757
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

In the comics, The Mandarin first appears to be communist, but is soon revealed to actually be an enemy of both east and west who wants to cause World War III and rule the ashes. So that fake-out is actually in keeping with the comics.

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Old 06-03-2013, 03:56 PM   #758
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Bullpucky! Kingsley's character was NOTHING like The Mandarin. The Mandarin is all about rage and machismo, a hypermasculine maniac who has more in common with Gorilla Grodd or Bane than with Fu Manchu or Ra's Al Ghul.


.
.
I don't understand why this keeps coming up no matter how many times I refute it. The Mandarin is not a calm, logical little guy making coldly philosophical speeches about how this is ultimately retaliation for western imperialism. The Mandarin is a raging maniac who loves to karate-chop his problems away.
Many characters change their personalities. Even so it was much better than the joke we got. And he could have still had his maniac side in a hypothetical final confrontation.

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Old 06-03-2013, 04:09 PM   #759
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Well then you didn't really want The Mandarin and should change the way you phrase these arguments to reflect that. What you seem to want is a Captain Nemo/Fu Manchu hybrid, not The Mandarin. The Mandarin is a mad scientist and superhuman martial artist with the personality of a raging barbarian.


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Old 06-03-2013, 04:34 PM   #760
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
The only one grasping at straws here is you in trying to *attack* this movie to death. I'll defend it to death as long as you attack it to death, how's that?
So after my argument the only thing you have left to say is "well the only being wrong here is you, hahaha! I will keep defending this movie even if I don't have a decent counter-argument!"

don't try to join a debate team any time soon

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Old 06-03-2013, 04:37 PM   #761
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Well then you didn't really want The Mandarin and should change the way you phrase these arguments to reflect that. What you seem to want is a Captain Nemo/Fu Manchu hybrid, not The Mandarin. The Mandarin is a mad scientist and superhuman martial artist with the personality of a raging barbarian.
So did you decide to miss when I mentioned that what Kingsley was doing in the movie (pre-joke) was good and that many villains change personalities and even motivations a little?


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Old 06-03-2013, 04:55 PM   #762
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I didn't miss it, I just wanted it clarified. You don't want The Mandarin. You want a Captain Nemo/Fu Manchu hybrid.

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Old 06-03-2013, 05:06 PM   #763
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Even more specific: He wanted The Mandarin to be adapted into a version that could be taken seriously and wouldn't be an embarrassment

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Old 06-03-2013, 05:12 PM   #764
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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I didn't miss it, I just wanted it clarified. You don't want The Mandarin. You want a Captain Nemo/Fu Manchu hybrid.
So did you decide to miss when I mentioned that what Kingsley was doing in the movie (pre-joke) was good? Or do you need to label that a bad name so it sounds bad even when it was good?


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Even more specific: He wanted The Mandarin to be adapted into a version that could be taken seriously and wouldn't be an embarrassment

Not really hard to grasp.

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Old 06-03-2013, 05:54 PM   #765
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

It seems too many people can't get it into their head that fans didn't want a Fu Manchu stereotype,they wanted the (decidedly non-asian) Kingsley to live up to the hype of being Stark's most fearsome arch-foe,as The Mandarin.

Now,this isn't the biggest deal in the world to me.I can sleep at night.But for love or money,will you guys stop trying to pass off Killian as the Mandarin?He didn't have the stinkin' rings or any other trappings of Mandarin.He wasn't even terribly original as a villain,since he had dozens of underlings with the same furshlugginer powers that he has!

They took a wild chance with the character because they were so blasted afraid of offending someone.And obviously,it worked better for some people than others.

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Old 06-03-2013, 06:36 PM   #766
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Now,this isn't the biggest deal in the world to me.I can sleep at night.But for love or money,will you guys stop trying to pass off Killian as the Mandarin?He didn't have the stinkin' rings or any other trappings of Mandarin..
What "trappings" would those be? He's had over seven different costumes, including no costume at all. He's also been without the rings in some stories, using inventions or his superhuman martial arts instead.




In fact, the only consistent things about him are things most of you have rejected: him having the personality of a crude, raging brute, being motivated by petty things like rage and vanity rather than some complex philosophy.

Now, before some others of you yet again repeat that you just liked Kingsley's character even if he wasn't the Mandarin, that's fine, then this post isn't about you.

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Old 06-03-2013, 06:50 PM   #767
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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The part where he's a muslim. Which he wasn't. It was pretty clear, even in the trailers, that he wasn't a muslim. I know I thought he was an american who hated his country for the evil and lies it had bestowed upon the world. I'd say that what you're refering to by calling him a muslim is you're assumption of his religon, but you yourself have brought up the race issue several times (racist, racism, racial cariacature, racist stereotype), so I can only come to the conclusion that it's his iconography (clothing, jewelry etc.), his beard, or that he's a terrorist, and if that's the case, then, I have to ask: Who's really the one forming a racist stereotype here?
Go ahead --- keep going with your snarky insinuation that I'm a closet racist. Let's see where this goes. (*glancing up at the warning thread at the top of this page*)

The part where you're talking about Trevor's persona being an American who hated his country *was* discussed in an off-camera interview by Feige, I'll grant you that; but that story angle was never shown in the movie as released at all. In any event, the Muslim stereotyping was still said to be adopted by Trevor's character, even in that interview; along with iconography from China, Cuba, pretty much a catch-all of terrorist/rebel leaders. A stereotype of stereotypes. Still: a *stereotype.*


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It is a crappy movie. How much money it makes isn't gonna change that.
In your minority opinion, it's a crappy movie. Box office, plus critical consensus, plus audience consensus says you're dead wrong.

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He's still not a muslim.I'm american. I don't see what that has to do with caring.
Okay.

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I think they have fine enough villains.
Good. Name them, and why you think they're "fine enough" to warrant appearances in movies.

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The fact is that very few people would see a movie about Iron Man going to AA.
But they *would* go see a movie about a hero with a larger than life personality who's a ton of fun to watch, regardless of whose butt he does or doesn't kick. Imagine --- people going to see a movie about the hero, instead of the villain. What's the world coming to?!

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So after my argument the only thing you have left to say is "well the only being wrong here is you, hahaha! I will keep defending this movie even if I don't have a decent counter-argument!"

don't try to join a debate team any time soon
Irony.
Dude, I shot your misconceptions down one by one, and you still continue to close your ears and go "la la la i'm not listening to you." With everything that I explained to you going over your head, and everything in the movie going over your head, I'm truly sorry, and I hope that one day you'll look back at this movie and finally understand it. But I'm not willing to bet on that; so in the meantime, I've said all I'm going to say to you. Cheers, and goodbye.

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Old 06-03-2013, 07:02 PM   #768
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I'd like to take a survey of what people think are definitive Mandarin traits.

(1)The Mandarin's core philosophy is:
A. The strong should rule and the weak should perish.
B. The poor should rise up against the rich and divide their wealth.
C. The third world should seek revenge on the first world for their exploitative crimes.

(2)The Mandarin's personality is:
A. Coldly logical and philosophical.
B. Consumed by rage, vanity, misogyny, and class bigotry.
C. Silly and whimsical with a nihilistic sense of absurd humor.

(3)The Mandarin's powers are:
A. Scientific genius
B. Scientific genius and the ability to channel Chi into armor-destroying karate-chops.
C. Zapper rings

(4)The Mandarin's body-type is:
A. Athletic and muscular
B. Weak and shriveled
C. Fat and sickly

(5)The Mandarin's costume is:
A. Shirtless with a dragon tattoo.
B. A business suit.
C. All of the above, and bunch more besides, to the point that he has no definitive look.


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Old 06-03-2013, 07:12 PM   #769
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MichaelChen, how many other personality tests are you going to conjure up before admitting you actually understand what we are saying?

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Old 06-03-2013, 07:22 PM   #770
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I do understand what you are saying: you like Kingsley's character's character. I'm not disputing that, this isn't about that. You are not the only other person in this thread, and some of what I'm discussing has nothing to do with you, Morose.

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Old 06-03-2013, 10:22 PM   #771
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Spin it any way you want, just don't use the word or I will report you the next time you do because it IS offensive.
Next time I decide to use the word I'll be sure to PM you so you can report me internet tough guy.

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Old 06-03-2013, 10:44 PM   #772
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Next time I decide to use the word I'll be sure to PM you so you can report me internet tough guy.
I don't like the word. And it has nothing to do with being insecure. Maybe you should think about why you seem to be fine using it without caring about what others think of it.

Okay? Okay. Now we can all move on without you thinking you're the "cool internet guy" bashing on how this world has become "too PC" and just think about how certain words actually DO effect others.


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Old 06-03-2013, 11:40 PM   #773
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
I don't like the word. And it has nothing to do with being insecure. Maybe you should think about why you seem to be fine using it without caring about what others think of it.

Okay? Okay. Now we can all move on without you thinking you're the "cool internet guy" bashing on how this world has become "too PC" and just think about how certain words actually DO effect others.
Let me be clear. Had you said that it offended YOU then I'd simply apologize because it wasn't my intention. I've been on here for years and I don't think I've offended anyone. But the whole "PC" thing bothers me if someone says that it's just offensive. Offensive to who? Are people who are mentally retarded offended, or are you just trying to be haughty?

When you label something but at the same time change it's meaning just for the sake of being politically correct it is asinine. For years people used the word Oriental to describe someone from southeast Asia. Now that term is "racist" so now everyone says "Asian". Well what you really mean is "Oriental". When I was in Afghanistan we had a few drivers who were from Russia, Kazakhstan,uzbekistan, and one guy was from China. Everyone kept referring to the guy from China as the "Asian" one. I would always argue how everyone was asian even the local Afghan people are asian. Heck, many people in the so-called Middle East feel that it's a racist term cooked up by Westerners. sigh

Sorry for my rant and sorry if I offended you.

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Old 06-04-2013, 12:26 AM   #774
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

I was diagnosed with cerebral palsy, although I don't have any symptoms of such to the day and I've witnessed a mentally handicapped person beaten(well, I've seen the after-effects of it, didn't see it happen infront of me as the poor boy ran into the shop I worked at when I was 16 screaming and yelling for help and that is when I found out he was bullied around and called "retarded" numerous times at his school).

But, I'm not going to kid around. It's offensive to so many more than just me and that's why I didn't say just myself and why I didn't want to say it offended me because of the fact that I'm not one to tell personal issues with my life and I didn't want to explain why it offended me personally.

Thank you for apologizing though, I appreciate it

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Old 06-04-2013, 12:34 AM   #775
TheWallCrawler
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Default Re: The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Irony.
Dude, I shot your misconceptions down one by one, and you still continue to close your ears and go "la la la i'm not listening to you." With everything that I explained to you going over your head, and everything in the movie going over your head, I'm truly sorry, and I hope that one day you'll look back at this movie and finally understand it. But I'm not willing to bet on that; so in the meantime, I've said all I'm going to say to you. Cheers, and goodbye.
with every argument I read your comment and I explained my point deeper with the rules of your own theory. But you didn't shoot my last arguments down, but you took the stance of "I don't care if it makes sense, I'm standing my ground"

On the last comment where I explained how Killian being called "the real Mandarin" doesn't make sense you were backed into the corner and said "What *matters* is that Aldrich Killian is the physically imposing supervillain everybody's been asking for". That didn't shoot my argument down, it was more like "well ok ok, but Killian is still a good villain"

You don't have to answer. I stood my ground with making sense, and I always knew you were too stubborn to admit you lost the debate when it would come down to it. and now it has

cheers


Last edited by TheWallCrawler; 06-04-2013 at 03:30 AM.
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