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Old 06-09-2013, 01:44 AM   #551
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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I much much much prefer what we got as the cathedral ending compared to Keaton's Batman on horseback, just doesn't fit the tone of the film to me.
The cathedral was magnificent. The belfry is like the bat's natural urban habitat.

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Old 06-25-2013, 02:02 PM   #552
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

I'm rewatching a DVD I got off Ebay that has tons of entertainent clips from 1989 such as A Current Affair, 20/20, Entertainment Tonight, Siskel & Ebert that it takes me back as a 13 year old remembering the hype.

It's surprising how many of those so called "experts" were actually expecting the movie to be a bomb due to the massive hype that was building and how staunch supporters of Adam West wanted him to return as Batman.

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Old 06-25-2013, 02:24 PM   #553
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Let's just take a moment to admire one of Anton Furst's superb Gotham City concepts:



God, I love this movie. At the time, it looked and sounded unlike anything else, and so much we take for granted in other Batman adaptations has flown from it.

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Old 06-25-2013, 02:28 PM   #554
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Man, that is glorious. I love Returns, but Burton should have kept Anton's designs.

B89 and B:TAS are my favourite depictions of Gotham City.

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Old 06-25-2013, 02:31 PM   #555
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Indeed, and the influence of B89 on BTAS is obvious, from the skyline to the fedora hats.

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Old 07-01-2013, 10:30 PM   #556
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:35 PM   #557
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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This guy is the spitting image of the Joker from the comics. And you can even see a hint of that Jack Nicholson sneer just before his full smile. A great bit of acting from a small role.

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Old 07-01-2013, 10:40 PM   #558
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

The scene of the murder is exact the way I have always seen it from the comics: unsettling, nightmare-like, exaggerated in the mind of little Bruce.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:19 AM   #559
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

That's one thing I can't understand about BB: the scene is so underplayed that its monumental significance is slightly dissipated. I think Burton's decision to replay it through Bruce's (presumably imperfect) memory, rather than as a literal random event, was inspired.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:24 AM   #560
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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This guy is the spitting image of the Joker from the comics. And you can even see a hint of that Jack Nicholson sneer just before his full smile. A great bit of acting from a small role.
I love the gifs Kane.

Where did they find a guy who exactly looks like young Jack Nicholson he's like twin brother?

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Old 07-02-2013, 06:16 AM   #561
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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That's one thing I can't understand about BB: the scene is so underplayed that its monumental significance is slightly dissipated. I think Burton's decision to replay it through Bruce's (presumably imperfect) memory, rather than as a literal random event, was inspired.
Eugh... I find it so lacking in BB. ''Bruce, don't be afraid!''.

Talk about hitting you over the head.

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Old 07-02-2013, 11:17 AM   #562
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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That's one thing I can't understand about BB: the scene is so underplayed that its monumental significance is slightly dissipated. I think Burton's decision to replay it through Bruce's (presumably imperfect) memory, rather than as a literal random event, was inspired.
I agree. In BB, the murderer was shown as an afraid "victim" of circumstances, not the abominable monster he has always been. And the murder itself happened really quickly.

Plus, as Pfeiffer-Pfan so pflawlessly said, the "don't be afraid" came out unnatural and unconvincing. That version of Thomas couldn't be anything but comforting and kindhearted all the time. Even when he was dying.

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Old 07-02-2013, 11:19 AM   #563
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

It was cheesy as hell the don't be afraid whilst dying line

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Old 07-02-2013, 11:20 AM   #564
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

I think it's actually more poignant in light of TDKR, in that the shape Bruce's life takes is a reflection of him taking his father's last words far too literally.

As for B'89, as much as I'm not the world's biggest fan of Joker killing The Waynes, it's a very haunting and effective flashback sequence. Great score by Elfman too.

Like I usually say though, each worked well for its respective film. In B'89, the Wayne Murder scene is part of a big Act 2 revelation that gears the plot up for Act 3. It needs to be a big dramatic scene. In BB, it's in Act 1 and it can afford to be underplayed because it's not the final "event" in Bruce's life that leads to him leaving Gotham and becoming Batman. Although it's still shot in a subjective way that gives you a sense of how disorienting something like that might be to a child.

It makes sense too, since Chill doesn't actually want to kill the Waynes. Napier enjoys doing it, so it's more calculated and deliberate (at least in Bruce's memory). Very chilling and resonant sequence. I prefer it to BB's too, but I appreciate why BB's is the way it is.

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Old 07-02-2013, 11:45 AM   #565
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

It was Joe Chill pulling the trigger. I'll gladly take that over it being the Joker.

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Old 07-02-2013, 11:55 AM   #566
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

I don't get the complaint about Joker murdering the Wayne's.

It worked for the film's story. About two men, arguably the greatest enemies in comics, creating each other's monstrous persona's. It seemed like a self contained revenge story.

I liked the change for the what the film told the story as.

And that complaint about Alfred showing Vicki the Bat cave still bugs me. Even though she deduced it for herself and Alfred wanted Bruce to be happy with her. Pfft

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Old 07-02-2013, 12:04 PM   #567
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

It felt too contrived to me. Like it was thrown in at the last minute. Which apparently it was during the writers strike according to Sam Hamm. It was unnecessary, too. Joker didn't need to kill Batman's parents for it to be personal between them. It didn't feel like something the Batman/Joker feud ever was or should ever be. Batman pissed at Joker for creating him by taking his parents.

It just did not work for me.

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Old 07-02-2013, 12:04 PM   #568
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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It seemed like a self contained revenge story.
I think that's the problem right there for a lot of people. Ideally the Batman/Joker relationship represents something bigger than just that.

It more or less worked for the film, it's just that dramatic changes to the mythos are inevitably going to rub some fans the wrong way.

It is interesting though, because up until the Nolan films it was kind of "common knowledge" among non-comic book readers that The Joker killed Bruce Wayne's parents. A lot of people were initially confused when it wasn't The Joker who did it in BB. So for better or worse, it made it's mark on the mythos for a while and was canon to the layman.

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Old 07-02-2013, 12:10 PM   #569
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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It was Joe Chill pulling the trigger. I'll gladly take that over it being the Joker.
Ah, I know this might takes us back to that long discussion, but I never asked you, what in Bruce's decision and trip into Batman changes if the name of the murderer changes from Joe Chill to Jack Napier.




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I don't get the complaint about Joker murdering the Wayne's.

It worked for the film's story. About two men, arguably the greatest enemies in comics, creating each other's monstrous persona's. It seemed like a self contained revenge story.

I liked the change for the what the film told the story as.
That was character merging, which has been common to many movies and superhero movies. Ducard and Ra's al Ghul was another example of this. It worked for that movie.

But Batman wasn't born just to look for that murderer in a personal revenge arc. Batman was fighting crime and not looking for this Jack Napier. In fact Batman saved Jack Napier's life at one point.

But then again, Bruce had a personal revenge story with Joe Chill in BB.

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Old 07-02-2013, 12:11 PM   #570
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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I think that's the problem right there for a lot of people. Ideally the Batman/Joker relationship represents something bigger than just that.

It more or less worked for the film, it's just that dramatic changes to the mythos are inevitably going to rub some fans the wrong way.
Exactly

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Ah, I know this might takes us back to that long discussion, but I never asked you, what in Bruce's decision and trip into Batman changes if the name of the murderer changes from Joe Chill to Jack Napier.
You know the answer to that. We discussed it at length for several pages.

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Old 07-02-2013, 12:13 PM   #571
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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You know the answer to that. We discussed it at length for several pages.
Yet you wrote it here again. I'll consider that my answer, thanks.

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Old 07-02-2013, 12:16 PM   #572
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Well I grew up on this film and the changes to the mythos didn't rub me in the wrong way at all.

I may not always like something, but I always try to judge it on it's own merits. And as a standalone Batman story (An elseworlds if you will), this little change is effective in the movie.

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Old 07-02-2013, 12:23 PM   #573
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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Well I grew up on this film and the changes to the mythos didn't rub me in the wrong way at all.

I may not always like something, but I always try to judge it on it's own merits. And as a standalone Batman story (An elseworlds if you will), this little change is effective in the movie.
Pretty much this, I understand why the film was trying to connect Bruce and the Joker and make it more compact within the story. So It just made sense to me.

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Old 07-02-2013, 12:36 PM   #574
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

It rubbed a lot of the fans up the wrong way by all accounts:

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Many observed that Burton was more interested in the Joker rather than Batman in terms of characterization and screen time. Comic book fans reacted negatively over the Joker murdering Thomas and Martha Wayne. In the comic book, Joe Chill is responsible. Writer Sam Hamm, who is a comic book fan, said it was Burton's idea to have the Joker murder Wayne's parents. "The Writer's Strike was going on," Hamm continued, "and Tim had the other writers do that. I also hold innocent to Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave," he reasoned. "Fans were ticked off with that, and I agree. That would have been Alfred's last day of employment at Wayne Manor."
http://destinyosbourne.hubpages.com/hub/the-batman

I think they discuss it on the special features of the movie, too.

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Old 07-02-2013, 12:42 PM   #575
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Of course it'll piss off the fans who can't accept the fact it's their own interpretation. You can never have a 100% "pure" adaption of Batman (or any fictional character) because there's always gonna be changes and there's always changes in the source material.

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