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Old 06-05-2013, 08:56 PM   #201
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Default Re: Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

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If Joker has to die at someone elses hand, then Gordon would be a fine choice. Or have it done like in the Harvey Dent situation at the end of TDK, where Batman ends up killing him to stop him doing something really evil.
I don't think that was intentional. He was just trying to grab the boy. Harvey resisted and then they fell down from that height.

As for the Joker, I don't think it would have been possible for anyone to kill him. In the Joker's mind, there are only two people in the whole world that have the right to kill him - Batman and the Joker. If someone other than Batman is about to kill him, chances are that the Joker will try to kill himself before that person gets the chance to kill him. This is at least true about the Joker in the comics. We don't really have solid evidence that Heath's Joker believes the same thing but I like to think that he would, especially after his "I think you and I are destined to do this forever" line.

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Old 06-05-2013, 08:58 PM   #202
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Yeah, I would be okay with Gordon putting a bullet in The Joker's head. Batman may have a rule, but Gordon has a badge. I'm sure with that many years in the GCPD Gordon's had to put down a few people. A bit weird to think he draws his gun so many times over the course of the three films but never fires. But at the same time it does make him more wholesome.

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Old 06-05-2013, 08:59 PM   #203
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That's true!

Gordon should have killed one villain during the trilogy since he's such a major character, but that seems to be the case with Gordon...he never gets to defeat a baddie in any Batfilm.

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Old 06-05-2013, 09:00 PM   #204
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Default Re: Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

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I don't think that was intentional. He was just trying to grab the boy. Harvey resisted and then they fell down from that height.
I agree. I meant in the sense that if Batman killed Joker, it could be done in a situation like that.

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As for the Joker, I don't think it would have been possible for anyone to kill him. In the Joker's mind, there are only two people in the whole world that have the right to kill him - Batman and the Joker. If someone other than Batman is about to kill him, chances are that the Joker will try to kill himself before that person gets the chance to kill him. This is at least true about the Joker in the comics. We don't really have solid evidence that Heath's Joker believes the same thing but I like to think that he would, especially after his "I think you and I are destined to do this forever" line.
You're forgetting Harvey Dent. Joker put a gun in Harvey's hand and pointed it at his own head in the hospital scene. He seemed quite eager to die at Harvey's hand if it meant he had successfully turned Harvey into a murderer.

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Old 06-05-2013, 09:02 PM   #205
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Default Re: Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

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That's true!

Gordon should have killed one villain during the trilogy since he's such a major character, but that seems to be the case with Gordon...he never gets to defeat a baddie in any Batfilm.
You know what though, now that I think about it he technically sort of "killed" Ra's because he's the one who destroyed the monorail tracks. He took the action that led to his death, and then Batman's non-action allowed it to happen haha.

Also, I guess he also killed those mercenaries in the hospital but it was done off-screen. Almost forgot about that. I revise my statement to "Gordon never fired his gun on-screen" lol

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Old 06-05-2013, 09:04 PM   #206
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True. I could see it being shown that Gordon helped defeat one of the villains, but I am mostly talking about using his own firearm.

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Old 06-05-2013, 09:28 PM   #207
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I agree. I meant in the sense that if Batman killed Joker, it could be done in a situation like that.
It could be done in that way but I would prefer for him to die in different ways. If Heath was alive and they were still going to do the 8-year retirement gap in TDKR, I think it would've been great for the Joker to die similar to how he did in The Dark Knight Returns.

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You're forgetting Harvey Dent. Joker put a gun in Harvey's hand and pointed it at his own head in the hospital scene. He seemed quite eager to die at Harvey's hand if it meant he had successfully turned Harvey into a murderer.
Good point. However, that was prior to his realization that Batman is incorruptible.

The thing that I love about the film is that both the Joker and Batman underestimated each other. Batman assumed the Joker was just another ordinary criminal while the Joker assumed that Batman was no different than Harvey, since Harvey and Batman were both parallels of each other up until the end of the film. They both fought for justice, both believed in a safe Gotham for the future, both loved the same woman and ultimately ended up losing the same woman. What the Joker originally wanted to show to Gotham was how both of their heroes could easily get corrupted. He even tells Batman at one point just how convinced he is that he will make Batman break his one rule by getting him to cross that line and become a murderer. What ends up happening in the end is that the Joker manages to corrupt Harvey but fails at corrupting Batman. He realizes this after Batman saves him with his grappling gun and not only he realizes this but becomes even more fascinated with Batman than he was before because he realizes just how incorruptible Batman truly is. What follows after is the famous "You and I will do this forever" line. What that line always symbolized to me was the true beginning of the Batman/Joker dynamic. That is the moment when they both come to look at each other in the same way they look at each other in the comics.

Going back to whether or not the Joker would let someone other than Batman kill him, I wouldn't be surprised if post-TDK Joker wouldn't be fine with that.

But then again, you probably know these things better than anyone else. Or maybe you don't know since you keep reinventing yourself.


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Old 06-05-2013, 10:13 PM   #208
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Great post Shikamaru. I totally agree that in there final moments together in the film, both Batman and Joker truly realized what each other were about.

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Old 06-05-2013, 10:51 PM   #209
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I do think Joker probably had a strong inkling Batman was a tough cookie to crack after he swerved away from him on the Batpod. I know the ending his where he seems to fully realize the lengths Batman will go to not break his rule, but I wouldn't want to downplay the importance of that amazing moment in the middle of the film either. Joker is flat out murdering pedestrians, begging Batman to mow him down and Batman resists.

To me the "destined to do this forever" line was a nice nod to the iconic and enduring nature of their relationship in the comics and pop culture in general. But I feel like they understood each other pretty well post-chase and interrogation scene. IMO the Batman/Joker relationship was portrayed definitively in TDK.

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Old 06-05-2013, 10:59 PM   #210
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Default Re: Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

True. I love the Joker's reaction to when Batman decides to swerve off the bat-pod; instead of running him over.

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Old 06-06-2013, 12:16 PM   #211
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Default Re: Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

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To me the "destined to do this forever" line was a nice nod to the iconic and enduring nature of their relationship in the comics and pop culture in general. But I feel like they understood each other pretty well post-chase and interrogation scene. IMO the Batman/Joker relationship was portrayed definitively in TDK.
This. The way TDKR is when you watch it, where Bruce Wayne needed to move on from his past, being Gotham, and passing the mantle down, I feel that line from Joker could just be viewed as, as you said, their iconic nature and what Batman and Joker means as a whole when it comes to the cream of the crop iconography of a hero and a villain. It's a nice little gesture, and imo, I don't take it any other way that TDKR should have had Bruce stay as Batman and continuing the fight against Joker throughout his life. Remember, Bruce won that bit of wit by telling Joker he'll be in a padded cell forever.

Plus, the idea of Joker ever escaping Arkham Asylum and messing with this "New Batman" because he's not the same is just too amazing to not imagine, lol.

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Old 06-06-2013, 09:15 PM   #212
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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

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Old 06-06-2013, 09:25 PM   #213
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Default Re: Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Holy s**t, that is beautiful.

The Batman/Joker dynamic is hands down the best hero/villain dynamic there is. I never grow tired of seeing it.

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Old 06-07-2013, 02:28 AM   #214
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Like I said, that line speaks more to on their famous dynamic from the comics, cartoons, et cetera than anything regarding Nolan's trilogy, imo.

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Old 06-07-2013, 06:27 PM   #215
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Holy s**t, that is beautiful.

The Batman/Joker dynamic is hands down the best hero/villain dynamic there is. I never grow tired of seeing it.
Credit to MessenjahMatt for his amazing wallpaper. I just added the rest.

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Old 06-08-2013, 01:14 AM   #216
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Default Re: Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

I like to believe Mr. Reese is the Nolan version of the Riddler.

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Old 06-08-2013, 06:38 PM   #217
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Default Re: Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

Another one I just thought about since recently watching TDKR again, is I'd like to think that after Bane was excommunicated from the LOS; he then went on to make a name for himself as this infamous mercenary/terrorist. Along with him was his right hand man, Barsad and a few others added to his militia. Then after Ra's had died, Talia searched out for Bane to reinstate him into the LOS, for one final mission to finish her Father's work.

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Old 06-08-2013, 08:18 PM   #218
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Another one I just thought about since recently watching TDKR again, is I'd like to think that after Bane was excommunicated from the LOS; he then went on to make a name for himself as this infamous mercenary/terrorist. Along with him was his right hand man, Barsad and a few others added to his militia. Then after Ra's had died, Talia searched out for Bane to reinstate him into the LOS, for one final mission to finish her Father's work.
I definitely like to believe Bane made a name for himself. He did help out Daggett in securing a mining operation and the CIA definitely knew about him, so I hardly see it as something that Talia ordered Bane to do all of that and make a name for himself, haha, but Talia coming to Bane for this one mission with Gotham seems more reasonable. And since Bane had helped Daggett beforehand, they used Daggett for their terrorist plot for Gotham.

The trickiest part is the idea of if all of them are Bane's men, or they're members of the LoS. Who knows, perhaps Talia found some other way that Bruce is Batman and Barsad and all of those men are legit members of Bane's militia.

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Old 06-08-2013, 09:41 PM   #219
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I definitely got the impression that Bane and Barsad have rolled together before. Barsad was always by his side.

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Old 06-08-2013, 11:27 PM   #220
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Well Barsad is definitely with Bane in the beginning of the film as he's the one that drops Bane and two other mercenaries with Dr. Pavel.

That's one question that really leaves it open-ended, though. Are those League of Shadow members, or just Bane's men? How did Talia figure out that Bruce is Batman if they aren't LoS? It's a head scratcher.

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Old 06-09-2013, 12:06 AM   #221
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That's one question that really leaves it open-ended, though. Are those League of Shadow members, or just Bane's men? How did Talia figure out that Bruce is Batman if they aren't LoS? It's a head scratcher.
There's a communal feel to Bane and his gang at certain points, like in the prologue when he tells the CIA man "it doesn't matter who we are" and when he calls the man left behind "brother". And even in the scene where he kills his own men he scolds them for getting other members killed. I took it to mean that those men had predominant ties to the LOS, like Bane, but because Ra's died and there was a lack of unified leadership they banded around Bane and Talia doing mercenary stuff. So it's a bit a both, kind of a LOS 2.0 with different figureheads and methods of obtaining their goals.

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Old 06-09-2013, 12:20 AM   #222
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I also like to believe Barsad is the Nolan version of Deadshot.

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Old 06-09-2013, 02:07 AM   #223
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Ah, I see. Yeah, that line was just weird but I suppose it's just another attempt to stress to the audience just how important Miranda is to Bruce (I never felt that way but that's a different discussion altogether lol) along with Selina's "you'll wage a war for your stuck-up girlfriend" and Bruce's "I'll never forget you" line to Miranda to make her betrayal ~shocking~.
For this reason I think he should have cut one or two characters of the film.
He could have cut John Blake and developed Talia.

I like to think that John Blake is not important, he didn't become Batman. For me, the film ends in the cafe scene.

I also see Bruce bored with married life.

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Old 06-09-2013, 11:38 AM   #224
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Default Re: Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

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Another one I just thought about since recently watching TDKR again, is I'd like to think that after Bane was excommunicated from the LOS; he then went on to make a name for himself as this infamous mercenary/terrorist. Along with him was his right hand man, Barsad and a few others added to his militia. Then after Ra's had died, Talia searched out for Bane to reinstate him into the LOS, for one final mission to finish her Father's work.
That's exactly how I take it. I mean, the CIA guy knows exactly who Barsad is referring to when he says "the mercenary", so that alone tells us that Bane has a reputation as one.

I like to think Bane had a small, extremely loyal crew he worked with in which Barsad was his no. 2, and then they all became absorbed by the LOS when Talia recruited Bane. Doesn't seem too far off either from the little bits and pieces we get in the film.

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Old 06-09-2013, 03:27 PM   #225
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You know, after giving it some thought...I could be mistaken to an extent when I said Bane didn't want to make a name for himself because of Talia. To continue the idea of theatricality and deception, what if Bane did set out to make a name for himself while forming a partnership with Talia? The only example we have before anything is shown in TDKR is Bane securing a mining operation for John Daggett. SO, we have Talia finding out about Bruce Wayne/Batman "murdering" her father, finds Bane and helps him form a group of mercenaries to make a name for himself so even the CIA is aware of this masked man while making some alliance with Daggett that will only help them in the long run.

And I really blame JackWhite for making me think about this all last night

But, now aside from that...you know what I would love to see in the ultimate collection for the trilogy later this year? Some kind of featurette of a Gotham news station retelling events of the siege and after, such as the search for Bruce Wayne's body continues, a sub committee looking over Gordon's position as Commissioner, Lucius Fox back as CEO of Wayne Enterprises and then breaking news of a similar figure to Batman but wearing a suit with "more blue"

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