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Old 06-16-2013, 03:06 AM   #101
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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I'm talking about the comicbook tho and even THEN Cap wasn't around until issue 4 lol
I SWEAR we had this convo before Bull lol Wasn't it mentioned that Rhodey was elsewhere and wasn't able to Help with Avengers? like the prequel comic or something?
Sure, but that comic came up in the months before Iron Man 3. Before that, we had no idea where Rhodey was during the Avengers.

I'm sure Hawkeye will get a comic explaining where he is during Cap2, at some point.

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Old 06-16-2013, 04:05 AM   #102
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

Man it would be cool if there was a a Prequel line of books or at least a graphic novel for Phase one, Phase 2 and so on

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Old 06-16-2013, 04:18 AM   #103
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

Will Cap visit an elderly Peggy Carter in this one, ala Mark Miller's Ultimates?

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Old 06-16-2013, 07:25 AM   #104
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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Will Cap visit an elderly Peggy Carter in this one, ala Mark Miller's Ultimates?
I doubt Peggy's still alive in this, but she could be. Hayley has definitely filmed some stuff recently about young Peggy that's known to be used in flashbacks and/or a Marvel One-Shot. Nothing was ever said about her wearing old-people prosthetic makeup, so afawk, there weren't any "Old Lady Peggy" scenes. Couple that with a rumor that Steve (Chris Evans) shot a graveside scene when they filmed at that Cleveland cemetery, and it seems likelier that Peggy has long since passed away before CATWS begins.

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Old 06-16-2013, 07:31 AM   #105
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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It's not inaccurate besides the fact I got the Peggy/Sharon family tree a generation out, the rest was an admittedly flippant but accurate take on the fact that them having any kind of romantic relationship is creepy.

Where has the reverse of that relationship dynamic been done in a big action movie or TV show? The male is almost always the lead and the one who is reckless or has a darker side, it's certainly never been done in anything as remotely prominent as this film will be and is not a very common theme for a female character.

I don't see how anything is sexist in any statement I made, I just think the idea of the cold and brooding Natasha falling for and finding self-forgiveness in the film with the uber good guy Cap an interesting relationship I'd like to see.
Please explain how a Steve-Sharon relationship is "creepy." Keeping in mind that the full extent of Steve's "relationship" with Peggy was a short kiss they shared *once.*

And the idea of Sharon taking the lead in a relationship with Steve instead of vice versa is very 21st century and empowering, and creates some obvious awkwardness for old-fashioned Steve that audiences would love and find endearing.

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:17 AM   #106
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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Please explain how a Steve-Sharon relationship is "creepy." Keeping in mind that the full extent of Steve's "relationship" with Peggy was a short kiss they shared *once.*

And the idea of Sharon taking the lead in a relationship with Steve instead of vice versa is very 21st century and empowering, and creates some obvious awkwardness for old-fashioned Steve that audiences would love and find endearing.
Their relationship was more than just a kiss. He loved her and she, him. It was nearly slammed on our heads with a hammer in TFA. The fact that he carries a picture of her around in his compass is proof enough that he had feelings.

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Old 06-16-2013, 08:58 AM   #107
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Seems very likely. Now you have to wonder who's picking him up (BW, Falcon, Fury, or Agent 13.)

seems more like he's fighting the jet than being picked up by it

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:23 AM   #108
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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Their relationship was more than just a kiss. He loved her and she, him. It was nearly slammed on our heads with a hammer in TFA. The fact that he carries a picture of her around in his compass is proof enough that he had feelings.
Yep and the deleted Avengers scene!

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:28 AM   #109
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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It's creepy ONLY if the reason they're dating is because of Sharon's relationship to Peggy, which is decidedly NOT the case.

There've been cases of the heroic male "redeeming" the bad female. Catwoman being one, obviously.
It's creepy because he dated her grandmother.

That's not the same dynamic at all because Batman himself is dark, obsessive and vengeful, not a good guy saving a bad girl.

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Please explain how a Steve-Sharon relationship is "creepy." Keeping in mind that the full extent of Steve's "relationship" with Peggy was a short kiss they shared *once.*

And the idea of Sharon taking the lead in a relationship with Steve instead of vice versa is very 21st century and empowering, and creates some obvious awkwardness for old-fashioned Steve that audiences would love and find endearing.
It's the granddaughter of the woman he loved, that is creepy no matter how you slice it.

Her taking the lead of her Gran's man doesn't change anything.

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:35 AM   #110
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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It's creepy because he dated her grandmother.

That's not the same dynamic at all because Batman himself is dark, obsessive and vengeful, not a good guy saving a bad girl.



It's the granddaughter of the woman he loved, that is creepy no matter how you slice it.

Her taking the lead of her Gran's man doesn't change anything.

They didn't "date" at all. Working together, sharing a brief kiss during the final mission, and *promising* a date that never comes to pass is not "dating." The full extent of Steve's "relationship" with Peggy is What Might Have Been. That's it.

And *everything* changes based on Cap's extraordinarily unique sci-fi situation. 70 years and 2-3 generations passed him by in an instant, and he's essentially traveled through time to the future. Whatever feelings he still has for Peggy are meaningless and moot, since she's already been dead and gone to him for *70 years.*

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:40 AM   #111
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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They didn't "date" at all. Working together, sharing a brief kiss during the final mission, and *promising* a date that never comes to pass is not "dating." The full extent of Steve's "relationship" with Peggy is What Might Have Been. That's it.

And *everything* changes based on Cap's extraordinarily unique sci-fi situation. 70 years and 2-3 generations passed him by in an instant, and he's essentially traveled through time to the future. Whatever feelings he still has for Peggy are meaningless and moot, since she's already been dead and gone to him for *70 years.*
They were in the middle of the war and it was a different time period for relationship, but it's clear in the film there are strong feelings between Cap and Peggy, it's not just some idle crush. Regardless though, to then hook up with your first loves granddaughter is weird and creepy, no matter how many excuses you make.

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Old 06-16-2013, 09:56 AM   #112
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They were in the middle of the war and it was a different time period for relationship, but it's clear in the film there are strong feelings between Cap and Peggy, it's not just some idle crush. Regardless though, to then hook up with your first loves granddaughter is weird and creepy, no matter how many excuses you make.
So we've gone from first kiss and 0 dates to first love and relationship now?

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Old 06-16-2013, 10:03 AM   #113
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So we've gone from first kiss and 0 dates to first love and relationship now?
They were in the middle of a war, just because they didn't sit opposite each other at a candle lit dinner or make out like horny teens doesn't mean they didn't care deeply for each other, a point I thought TFA made quite plain.

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Old 06-16-2013, 10:37 AM   #114
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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It's creepy because he dated her grandmother.

That's not the same dynamic at all because Batman himself is dark, obsessive and vengeful, not a good guy saving a bad girl.
Batman is self-sacrificing, noble, and moral. He's a good guy.

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It's the granddaughter of the woman he loved, that is creepy no matter how you slice it.

Her taking the lead of her Gran's man doesn't change anything.
I'd be far more likely to be willing to engage you further if you didn't keep referring to Peggy as Sharon's grandmother. You aren't actually well-informed about the source and material, and seem to judge it based purely on a couple of details rather than the thing in itself.

If more people thought like you, CATFA wouldn't have been made because it's a story where the hero is a blond-haired super-human in WWII.

So sure, stick to your guns.

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Old 06-16-2013, 10:42 AM   #115
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

Yeah I'm really hoping the two meet at least

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Old 06-16-2013, 10:45 AM   #116
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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They didn't "date" at all. Working together, sharing a brief kiss during the final mission, and *promising* a date that never comes to pass is not "dating." The full extent of Steve's "relationship" with Peggy is What Might Have Been. That's it.

And *everything* changes based on Cap's extraordinarily unique sci-fi situation. 70 years and 2-3 generations passed him by in an instant, and he's essentially traveled through time to the future. Whatever feelings he still has for Peggy are meaningless and moot, since she's already been dead and gone to him for *70 years.*
That's simply not true. Not at all. You're ignoring an obvious fact just to make your argument, which you don't need to do.

Outside of Pepper/Tony, they were the more involved than any other pairing in the MCU. It's not like the puppy love/crush of Jane/Thor. They were on the road to a long relationship. That road just got cut short. By the time TFA ended, they were already in love with one another.

And you state that 70 years passed by him in an instant--which is true--but then you say the relationship is moot because it's 70 years old. Not to him it isn't. He just woke up from a flash forward to the future. For him, it's instantaneous.

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Old 06-16-2013, 01:40 PM   #117
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Well, first of all, we don't exactly know what Peggy and Sharon's relationship to each other will be, as EVC hasn't been confirmed to be Sharon even, just Agent 13. It's highly likely that she will be Sharon, sure, but it's not confirmed yet. I think a lot of the diagreements here are based on the ever evolving Sharon/Peggy family relationship in the comics. It's changed a ton over the years, to make it work with the historical timeline of the Cap comic books, and, I guess it also works to make the creepy overtones less creepy.

I wouldn't necessarily be surprised to see Agent 13 and Steve's relationship really develop more in the third movie. They may bond here, maybe kiss. At least that's what I hope happens in TWS if Marvel Studios insist on keeping the Sharon/Steve romance in the movies.

I really kind of wish that they didn't even have a romance in this movie. Avengers didn't need it, and that movie kicked major ass with the female audience. Honestly, you want to get women to this movie? All we want is a little male eye candy, a good story, good character development and to watch the female actresses kick a lot of butt.

Plus, Steve's got a lot on his plate with Bucky. For me, that should be the epic "(b)romance" at the heart of the movie.

ETA: I do agree with the others that what Steve and Peggy had in TFA was way, way more than a mere "crush". Circumstances seemed to work more to keep them from moving further than they did, also Steve's awkwardness with women contributed, but outside of Tony/Pep, Steve/Peggy had probably the deepest connection between any Marvel couples.

(Well... not counting Bruce/Betty I guess)

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Old 06-16-2013, 01:49 PM   #118
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Portrait of unused helmet from the Avengers.



Link: http://geektyrant.com/news/2013/6/15...-avengers.html

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Old 06-16-2013, 01:58 PM   #119
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That looks good, much better than the final product. I'm curious as to why they didn't go with that one.

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Old 06-16-2013, 02:08 PM   #120
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Apparently because it didn't look good from a strait on shot and a few other angles...

And, Sharon isn't Peggy's granddaughter... grand niece .. so she is the daughter of one of Peggy's relatives... not creepy... but also, we don't know if Vancamp is even Sharon...

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Old 06-16-2013, 03:19 PM   #121
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

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Batman is self-sacrificing, noble, and moral. He's a good guy.
He's an extremely damaged person, it's there in virtually every post-Miller book you care to read. You are looking at the idea of the broken soul and the ultimate good guy in black and white terms. Captain America is not like Batman, he is completely pure like Superman, which makes him a stark contrast to Widow, where as Batman and Catwoman are closer together in terms of a grey area. However we are talking about one vaguely similar instance, on a whole the dynamic is always reversed which is why I think Steve and Natasha would be an interesting relationship but I'm not overly bothered if there is no relationship with him and any female in the film.


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I'd be far more likely to be willing to engage you further if you didn't keep referring to Peggy as Sharon's grandmother. You aren't actually well-informed about the source and material, and seem to judge it based purely on a couple of details rather than the thing in itself.

If more people thought like you, CATFA wouldn't have been made because it's a story where the hero is a blond-haired super-human in WWII.

So sure, stick to your guns.
Trying to act all high and mighty with me wont work, I've seen more superior minded people throw source material in other fans faces and I've seen them come and go from this place. I have no problem admitting I was wrong in my first instance, then another Steve/Sharon shipper told me she was her gran, so clearly they were defending something they didn't have the exactitude of either. However no matter how you slice it Peggy and Sharon are related and that makes any relationship with the frozen Steve creepy IMO.

This second sentence makes no sense just like your attempt to throw sexism into an earlier post. Here I gather you are trying to equate Cap in TFA with the classic Aryan blueprint, there is no comparison to someone thinking that which would be a falsehood, to the FACT that Sharon is related to Peggy and Steve then dating her being creepy.

You stick you yours as well since most of your shots have missed anyway with these far stretching attempts to correlate things that have no connection. It's pretty clear you want the comic accurate relationship which is fine, but making snide attempts to push my buttons because I have a differing viewpoint is worthless.

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Old 06-16-2013, 03:26 PM   #122
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Apparently because it didn't look good from a strait on shot and a few other angles...
And the one they chose was so much better....haha

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Old 06-16-2013, 03:28 PM   #123
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And the one they chose was so much better....haha
lol, I know right...

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Old 06-16-2013, 04:06 PM   #124
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Well, first of all, we don't exactly know what Peggy and Sharon's relationship to each other will be, as EVC hasn't been confirmed to be Sharon even, just Agent 13. It's highly likely that she will be Sharon, sure, but it's not confirmed yet. I think a lot of the diagreements here are based on the ever evolving Sharon/Peggy family relationship in the comics. It's changed a ton over the years, to make it work with the historical timeline of the Cap comic books, and, I guess it also works to make the creepy overtones less creepy.
I really hope they go romance free with this film. The memory of Peggy is too strong with both Cap AND the audience, to see him jump into something with someone else so quickly. Also, Cap has been shown to be awkward and reticent with women--where's the fun in watching him pick up someone without having to WORK for it?

I just saw Man of Steel and what a frickin' letdown. Talk about a half baked romance!

I know I'm a broken record on this, but man I wish Hayley Atwell was coming back as Sharon. She could be made to look substantially different with modern hair and dress, and she's a good enough actress to affect an American accent and make Sharon an entirely different character



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I wouldn't necessarily be surprised to see Agent 13 and Steve's relationship really develop more in the third movie. They may bond here, maybe kiss. At least that's what I hope happens in TWS if Marvel Studios insist on keeping the Sharon/Steve romance in the movies.
Well, to my utter dismay, I fear they are pushing a Cap/BW romance. Please, NO!

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I really kind of wish that they didn't even have a romance in this movie. Avengers didn't need it, and that movie kicked major ass with the female audience. Honestly, you want to get women to this movie? All we want is a little male eye candy, a good story, good character development and to watch the female actresses kick a lot of butt.

Plus, Steve's got a lot on his plate with Bucky. For me, that should be the epic "(b)romance" at the heart of the movie.
Agreed. Bucky is Cap's emotional involvement in this film, not a forced, cliched romance. A love interest for Cap is not needed if the character and story are involving enough.

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ETA: I do agree with the others that what Steve and Peggy had in TFA was way, way more than a mere "crush". Circumstances seemed to work more to keep them from moving further than they did, also Steve's awkwardness with women contributed, but outside of Tony/Pep, Steve/Peggy had probably the deepest connection between any Marvel couples.

(Well... not counting Bruce/Betty I guess)
Agreed, as well. That CATFA script has Joss Whedon written all over it. Steve loved Peggy, and she loved him back. But they both felt that what their work made a romance at that time, impossible. For my money, Cap/Peggy is the most poignant, well written romance in the Marvel movie universe. Their on screen chemistry is out of this world. They are equals, comrades and would-be-lovers. Hot, Hot, Hot.

Hayley was a huge reason why that movie worked, and I hope they figure out a way to use her again, that makes sense within the context of the story.

P.S. Man of Steel--I could write a screed. Thin, joyless, heartless and dull. Wait for the RedBox.

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Old 06-16-2013, 05:08 PM   #125
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

The best superhero romance is still Bat-Keaton and Michelle Catwoman.

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