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View Poll Results: "S" plastic shield vs broken neck.
"S" shield, cool new power designed to kill powerless enemies. 7 6.93%
Broken neck to save a family and millions of future innocent lives. 94 93.07%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:48 PM   #676
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Let's not forget Batman also killed Harvey Dent in TDK.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:50 PM   #677
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

He didnt kill him. He just chose not to save him.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:53 PM   #678
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Wow, I had no idea that Zod's death in SMII was in contention. I know it doesn't show definitively his death, but that's because it's a very sterile way to kill him off.
LOL, yeah. I love Superman II, but it seems to get away with a lot more than MOS does when it comes to critics and fans.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:53 PM   #679
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Why can't people just let people have their interpretations of what they see? Believe it or not some people aren't just being capricious or contrarian and just see it the way they see it.
Some people see it wrong...the way that some people see it.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:01 PM   #680
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Ok, then what happens when he falls.
If you watch the deleted scenes in the DONNER CUT...you see Zod, Non, and Ursa being led away by the arctic police. Some will say....if it wasn't in the movie, it doesn't count. That can be said for many movies. But concerning the story behind SI and SII with the movie being taken from a director and recut by someone else and behind the scenes politics like that....there was no actual true cut of the movie (the DVD put out as the DONNER CUT isn't really even Donner's cut, since someone else took what material he could find and put it in the order he thinks it should have been, according to the original Donner script shoot).

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:04 PM   #681
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Why can't people just let people have their interpretations of what they see? Believe it or not some people aren't just being capricious or contrarian and just see it the way they see it.

Well when the interpretation is not supported by what is actually in the film, I think some discussion is certainly warranted.

In the Donner cut the fall is not severe enough to be fatal for Zod, Ursa, or Non.....they are led away after their falls by the police...it's in the film.

The severity of the falls are identical in the Lester film, so either they miraculously survive a clearly fatal plunge in Donner's or they succumb to a minor threat to life and limb in Lester's.

If you watch Non's fall, it clearly is not very life threatening.

Now given that Superman's code, not to kill, at the time of Superman II was resolute and unwavering, and that the falls were fairly benign; I really don't see how anyone can conclude based on what is shown on film that Zod was killed by Superman, and Ursa and Non perished in Superman II.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:04 PM   #682
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Superman 2 has me re evaluating the end of Master of the Universe now.
I love that movie.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:06 PM   #683
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Interesting, didn't know that. I never got all the way through the Donner Cut.

Either way... as stated before, Superman resolved the Zod issue in a similar way in the comics (at least in one reality) so what happened in MOS didn't feel out of character at all to me.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:06 PM   #684
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Sorry to take your words out of context(truly I am) but this needs to highlighted and reflected upon.

I supposed we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest.
Superman is a perfect boy scout...and he got that from the Kents...BUT...people view that as being perfect and boring and unbeatable.

This is because people have no ability to see beyond their own scope.

You want a morally flawed character that has to learn to be good? Great...EVER OTHER superhero is for you. That is NOT Superman's great weakness, nor his story arc. He has DIFFERENT obstacles to overcome...obstacles that people can't seem to grasp because he is so strong.

Once you take away the boy scout raised by the Kents, you have every other superhero, but you no longer have what makes Superman unique.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:07 PM   #685
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Now given that Superman's code, not to kill, at the time of Superman II was resolute and unwavering, I really don't see how anyone can conclude based on what is shown on film that Zod was killed by Superman, and Ursa and Non perished in Superman II.
Well obviously people have concluded just that, otherwise he wouldn't have been included on a moviedeaths website.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:17 PM   #686
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Superman is a perfect boy scout...and he got that from the Kents...BUT...people view that as being perfect and boring and unbeatable.

This is because people have no ability to see beyond their own scope.

You want a morally flawed character that has to learn to be good? Great...EVER OTHER superhero is for you. That is NOT Superman's great weakness, nor his story arc. He has DIFFERENT obstacles to overcome...obstacles that people can't seem to grasp because he is so strong.

Once you take away the boy scout raised by the Kents, you have every other superhero, but you no longer have what makes Superman unique.
See, Heretic you're selectively ignoring that the Kents have always tried, in every incarnation, to keep a leash on Clark so he wouldn't reveal his powers. But it never has come at the expense of instilling morals, and it was no different in this movie. Just because Superman is forced to kill Zod does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that he is morally flawed.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:20 PM   #687
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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See, Heretic you're selectively ignoring that the Kents have always tried, in every incarnation, to keep a leash on Clark so he wouldn't reveal his powers. But it never has come at the expense of instilling morals, and it was no different in this movie. Just because Superman is forced to kill Zod does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that he is morally flawed.
Not so........Superboy was created to allow Clark to reveal and use his powers.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:22 PM   #688
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Superman is a perfect boy scout...and he got that from the Kents...BUT...people view that as being perfect and boring and unbeatable.

This is because people have no ability to see beyond their own scope.

You want a morally flawed character that has to learn to be good? Great...EVER OTHER superhero is for you. That is NOT Superman's great weakness, nor his story arc. He has DIFFERENT obstacles to overcome...obstacles that people can't seem to grasp because he is so strong.

Once you take away the boy scout raised by the Kents, you have every other superhero, but you no longer have what makes Superman unique.
In this day and age, nobody wants a superhero that is self-righteously good to the point of perfection. Not only is that as you mentioned, "boring", its borderline pandering and obnoxious to have a hero that is absolutely perfect in every way.

Superman is the type of person we should aspire to be, yes. But what I find fascinating is the journey that which it took him to be the person he is. Like us he went through the struggles and made mistakes before becoming the person he is.

I find that much more appealing than a Superman that does the right thing merely on the grounds that he was taught to. I find that to be a very naive and simplistic approach.

You say Superman shouldn't be like that and that he's better than that. I say that showing people that he's not and that it took him time to get there is far more fascinating.

You want a Superman that does the right thing because its the right thing. I want a Superman that does the right thing after experiencing the consequences and tribulations of not.

It's part of growing up. For everyone, Superman included.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:23 PM   #689
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I'd like to point out another reason why killing Zod was wrong for this movie that people seem to be overlooking...

What is Superman's purpose?? SIMPLE...it is to be the Man of Tomorrow...to inspire people to become better...for humanity as a whole to be in awe and hope to follow his great example. In that, he IS like Jesus. People will stumble, but through his example, they will hopefully someday walk with him.

Now...it is IRREFUTABLE that this is the purpose of Superman. Even THIS MOVIE makes that claim!

Now...how did Superman win this fight?

Well...he was stronger/more powerful than Zod...and he snapped Zod's neck.

The message is..."If you are more powerful than your obstacle...you can snap its neck."

Does that inspire hope? Does that make YOU want to become a better person? If anything, it says that you should get stronger, so you can overpower others if needed.

This movie had a theme of "you can reach beyond your supposed lot in life...you can be MORE than what you were born into." That is flat out stated in the film.

Well...Superman was more powerful than Zod. Did he "overcome" a stronger opponent? No, he did not. He always had the advantage in that regard...and it is WITH that advantage that he won the battle.

Now...what WOULD inspire hope? What WOULD make us feel that even WE could reach beyond our limitations and become something more than what is intended for us?

Well...Zod was a weaker opponent (most Superman opponents are weaker than him...the physical threat is VERY RARELY the main cause for concern)...but Zod DID have advantages. Zod was a master strategist...while Clark was a simple farm boy. Zod was a trained warrior, while Clark had never been in a fight. Zod was ruthless and willing to kill billions of bystanders to win, while Clark's compassion to save others limited his ability to fight. Superman's ONLY advantage was that he was more powerful than Zod.

So...the answer is...in order to inspire hope...in order to make me think that I can reach beyond my own limitations and frailties...Superman should have outsmarted Zod. THAT is a hope-filled message. that is an inspirational message.

Instead, Clark won with brute strength...using the physical advantages he had over his weaker opponent. I learned NOTHING from that example since I am not superhuman, nor do I even see dominant strength as necessarily a moral or hope-filled trait.

By killing Zod, Superman went against the theme of this movie AS WELL as the core reason for Superman's existence.

Superman's actions tell the OPPOSITE message of what the movie was trying to send, not to mention the opposite of what the character has been about for decades.


Last edited by Heretic; 06-17-2013 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:26 PM   #690
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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I'd like to pint out another reason why killing Zod was wrong for this movie that people seem to be overlooking...

What is Superman's purpose?? SIMPLE...is it to be the Man of Tomorrow...to inspire people to become better...for humanity as a whole to be in awe and hope to follow his great example. In that, he IS like Jesus. People will stumble, but through his example, they will hopefully someday walk with him.

Now...it is IRREFUTABLE that this is the purpose of Superman. Even THIS MOVIE makes that claim!

Now...how did Superman win this fight?

Well...he was stronger/more powerful than Zod...and he snapped Zod's neck.
This is why the responsibility lies with adults to help children to understand it when it's beyond them. It'll probably start with explaining that the story left him no choice. if you need more than that. there's probably plenty already here.

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Plus, is the infatuation that teenage girls have with pseudo-vampires any less sad than your infatuation with men in spandex and Heath Ledger? Its probably more justifiable for them. :)
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:27 PM   #691
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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In this day and age, nobody wants a superhero that is self-righteously good to the point of perfection. Not only is that as you mentioned, "boring", its borderline pandering and obnoxious to have a hero that is absolutely perfect in every way.

Superman is the type of person we should aspire to be, yes. But what I find fascinating is the journey that which it took him to be the person he is. Like us he went through the struggles and made mistakes before becoming the person he is.

I find that much more appealing than a Superman that does the right thing merely on the grounds that he was taught to. I find that to be a very naive and simplistic approach.

You say Superman shouldn't be like that and that he's better than that. I say that showing people that he's not and that it took him time to get there is far more fascinating.

You want a Superman that does the right thing because its the right thing. I want a Superman that does the right thing after experiencing the consequences and tribulations of not.
You just described the issue that every hero deals with except Superman...and you think Superman should get rid of what makes him unique and join the pack?? Why can't he be the shining example and just let the thousands of other superheroes deal with these issues?

Superman is TECHNICALLY perfect...but that perfection is his greatest weakness. A smart writer would exploit that weakness and force him to find a win in a no-win situation.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:30 PM   #692
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Heretic, what you're saying is 100% true about Superman needing to set an example. I don't thinkk he was stronger than Zod, though. I think, by the time Zod shed his armor, he had fully acclimated to Earth and was at that point stronger than, on only equal to, Superman. I think Superman was struggling just to barely hold onto him, and knew that Zod had the strength to keep going. I think the only advantage and hope for an end was to kill him.

I've got to leave work, go workout, eat, etc. I'm enjoying the conversation, so I'm looking forward to seeing what else people bring to it later tonight if I get a chance.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:41 PM   #693
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Heretic, what you're saying is 100% true about Superman needing to set an example. I don't thinkk he was stronger than Zod, though. I think, by the time Zod shed his armor, he had fully acclimated to Earth and was at that point stronger than, on only equal to, Superman. I think Superman was struggling just to barely hold onto him, and knew that Zod had the strength to keep going. I think the only advantage and hope for an end was to kill him.

I've got to leave work, go workout, eat, etc. I'm enjoying the conversation, so I'm looking forward to seeing what else people bring to it later tonight if I get a chance.
If Zod was as strong/powerful as Superman...then the movie makes no sense. Zod was shown to regret having to kill people (like Jor-el) but would do it if it saved Krypton. He said that he had to kill because of the pain it would cause the Kryptonians to adjust. It took him 5 minutes to adjust...he felt two brief moments of pain...and then he was GODLIKE. His reasoning was STUPID...and keep in mind he was a general, so should not have been an idiot.

Besides, Superman had been soaking in rays for 33 years...there is no way that Zod could be his equal in 2 days.

And as I mentioned...it just makes for a better, more true to form story if Clark would have been forced to outsmart the smarter man and out strategize the better strategist. Overpowering a weaker opponent is not inspiring.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:49 PM   #694
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Besides, Superman had been soaking in rays for 33 years...there is no way that Zod could be his equal in 2 days.

And as I mentioned...it just makes for a better, more true to form story if Clark would have been forced to outsmart the smarter man and out strategize the better strategist. Overpowering a weaker opponent is not inspiring.
Excellent points.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:58 PM   #695
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Besides, Superman had been soaking in rays for 33 years...there is no way that Zod could be his equal in 2 days.
1. Pretty sure Faora demonstrated how this could be possible. She simply out classed Superman, home field advantage or no.

2. How the sun soaking works in this film isn't explained completely. You are exposed to our sun you have powers(with little control), You are exposed to kryptonian atmosphere your powers turn off.

It's very possibly a matter of turning on and off. As seen when Zod is exposed to our sun with no protection. omg full super senses? I thought that took years to develop? Flight in 2 days? I thought superman had to hit puberty before that....

The advantage comes from control, and Zod was shown to be a proficient learner.

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:00 PM   #696
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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The advantage comes from control, and Zod was shown to be a proficient learner.
He was a proficient learner? Why? Because he stared at his own hands a few times and Supes explained verbally to the audience how to adapt?

It was a very thin way of demonstrating that proficiency.


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Old 06-17-2013, 04:05 PM   #697
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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1. Pretty sure Faora demonstrated how this could be possible. She simply out classed Superman, home field advantage or no.

2. How the sun soaking works in this film isn't explained completely. You are exposed to our sun you have powers(with little control), You are exposed to kryptonian atmosphere your powers turn off.

It's very possibly a matter of turning on and off. As seen when Zod is exposed to our sun with no protection. omg full super senses? I thought that took years to develop? Flight in 2 days? I thought superman had to hit puberty before that....

The advantage comes from control, and Zod was shown to be a proficient learner.
A couple of thoughts...

Clark had to wait until puberty to get full powers....Zod was already past puberty, so zap, they appeared.

Maybe Zod's spaceship had good shielding against radiation...and thus in the ship, no superpowers.

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:12 PM   #698
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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He was a proficiant learner? Why? Because he stared at his own hands a few times and Supes explained verbally to the audience how to adapt?

It was a very thin way of demonstrating that proficiency.
It's explained however, and the only way you don't get it is if you don't want to.

Clark has to focus, that took a kid like him years to master. Years to intuit. You hear the entire planet you go crazy(as zod did), you focus it out you are fine.

Zod said he was genetically bread, and more to the point, trained his entire life to be able to do such things(celestial warrior general).
Sit a kid that grew up playing with toys and watching care bares next to a kid that's been training to be a navy seal his entire life. Ask them to solve a math problem with miley cyrus music on full blast.

...pretty simple to grasp imo.
That being said the film could have been clearer as to how the sun soaking works.

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:16 PM   #699
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It's explained however, and the only way you don't get it is if you don't want to.

Clark has to focus, that took a kid like him years to master. Years to intuit. You hear the entire planet you go crazy(as zod did), you focus it out you are fine.

Zod said he was genetically bread, and more to the point, trained his entire life to be able to do such things(celestial warrior general).
Sit a kid that grew up playing with toys and watching care bares next to a kid that's been training to be a navy seal his entire life. Ask them to solve a math problem with miley cyrus music on full blast.

...pretty simple to grasp imo.
Trained all his life to adapt to a Sun he's never seen in his life? That was never implicitly or explicitly stated. However he did spend a tremendous amount of time speechifying his "purpose" in Kryptonian civilization.

I get what the movie told me as far as trying to tune out the static, but again that's my issue with so many elements in this movie. I'm "told" everything as a way of moving the plot along.

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:19 PM   #700
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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A couple of thoughts...

Clark had to wait until puberty to get full powers....Zod was already past puberty, so zap, they appeared.

Maybe Zod's spaceship had good shielding against radiation...and thus in the ship, no superpowers.
Which is funny because Goyer said they had cut out a scene where Baby Clark was beginning to experience changes in his physique through the yellow sun's gifts.

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he first, Goyer described to Bleeding Cool, was "a little scene in which Jonathan and Martha take a baby Kal to a paediatrician because he's starting to experience these changes. They do a hearing test on him where they're dialling up these sounds and baby Kal screams and it blows out all the windows.

"It was a funny scene," Goyer said, "but after the armageddon on Krypton -- originally we went from that to baby Kal to the fishing trawler -- it just felt weird. We didn't need it. Tonally it felt off."

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/06/1...deleted-scenes

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