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Old 06-26-2013, 04:31 PM   #1
DrCosmic
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Default The Glasses Problem

  1. Okay, so Superman makes out with Lois in front of Perry, Jenny and Steve Lombard. Cool.
  2. Clark then puts on some glasses and walks into the Daily Planet. Hmm... this could be a problem.
  3. Lois then starts making googly eyes, signifying that she and Clark will have some sort of workplace relationship that will eventually get people to wonder what Superman thinks about this... waitaminute.
  4. This is a room full of reporters, by the way. Their job is t find stuff out.
  5. What happens when Superman gets an up close and personal in an interview or a photograph?

Now I know what some of you might say

A) No one would expect to find Superman amongst them. Except... they would in MOS-verse. Zod said he is among you, looks like one of you.

B) The may think he's just a guy that looks like Superman. One time, this famous person lost a lookalike contest after all. Unless there's someone else around the Daily Planet that looks more like Superman than Clark Kent, this doesn't help.

C) Clark's act is so convincing, people can't help but believe he's just a normal guy! ... but we all know the act is not convincing. Especially to a group of reporters who are always looking for the next story, who can go to some other outlet if need be.

So... what to do, what to do? I have some thoughts, but I'm curious about yours...

Here's what Goyer himself had to say at Bleeding Cool
Quote:
In our minds there are people in Smallville who know Superman’s secret as well [as Lois], Pete Ross seems to know, there’s probably a couple dozen people who know and we thought it would be interesting if they’re protective of him.

We were able to sidestep the issue of the ludicrous glasses disguise in this film but going forwards, we’re going to find ourselves in a sticky wicket. Zack and I have definitely talked about “Okay, hmm, this will be interesting.” Clearly Perry White and Steve Lombard see Lois kissing Superman at the end of the film. Perry’s not an idiot. Moving forward, he’s probably going to say to Lois “What’s up with that?” We’re definitely going to have to go through some story gymnastics.

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Old 06-26-2013, 05:08 PM   #2
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Default Re: The Glasses Problem

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[*]Okay, so Superman makes out with Lois in front of Perry, Jenny and Steve Lombard. Cool.
I don't feel like they were close enough to have seen his face well enough to recognize him as Clark easily.

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[*]Clark then puts on some glasses and walks into the Daily Planet. Hmm... this could be a problem. [*]Lois then starts making googly eyes, signifying that she and Clark will have some sort of workplace relationship that will eventually get people to wonder what Superman thinks about this... waitaminute.
That's only a problem if Lois and Superman have a public romantic relationship. Kissing a guy in the heat of the moment in the middle of a life thretaening situation makes for a good story, but no one will assume that you're in a relationship just based off of that.

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[*]What happens when Superman gets an up close and personal in an interview or a photograph?
Simply have that never happen.

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B) The may think he's just a guy that looks like Superman. One time, this famous person lost a lookalike contest after all. Unless there's someone else around the Daily Planet that looks more like Superman than Clark Kent, this doesn't help.
How does it not help? If they only think he vaguely looks like Superman, that's helpful. Especially if they go with the notion that no one he comes in regular casual contact with besides Lois has gotten a very good look at his face.

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Here's what Goyer himself had to say at Bleeding Cool
I think Goyer's over thinking it. There's a level at which people won't think much about it if you don't draw too much attention to it. Explaining it just makes people think about it. Writing your story in such a way where they don't think about it is better.


I'm not saying Perry couldn't figure it out. I think that it would be pretty cool, actually. But I don't think it will be the biggest lapse in movie logic ever if they never go there. As long as they don't outright say that Perry got a perfect look at Clark's face during the Zod thing, I doubt most audiences will even think much about it.

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Old 06-27-2013, 01:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Glasses Problem

The Planet people weren't close enough to recognize him easily, but enough to understand that Clark looks like Superman.

Also, it was announced on national TV that Lois and not-yet-called-Superman knew each other. Lois clearly has the exclusive. People looking for Superman have her as their #1 lead. For the people at the Planet, that in tandem with the big kiss would strongly indicate a relationship.

And unfortunately, the flimsiness of Superman's disguise is part of the real world pop culture discourse. Not mentioning it doesn't work like it would for another hero. Overthinking it would be 'well, the NSA can do facial tracking on street cameras, so eventually they'd find him!' 'How did Clark get the exact job he wanted so quickly in this economy, right after such an epic disaster?' is overthinking it. Why Steve Lombard can't put two and two together, and no one else bothers to try to, that's pretty simple, pretty in your face.

The idea of Superman never coming into close contact with anyone is interesting, however, I don't think that's reasonable. He never speaks to the people he rescues? No one can get a shot of this guy?

Writing it so people think about it sounds good in theory, but afaik, that's done by making something cool. No one thinks about the physics of a good fight scene because it's cool to watch. I don't know if you can make the glasses 'cool.'

Perry, like the Smallville people would likely be protective, and Jenny would follow suit. The loose cannon, and I think he'd make a great sub story arc for Luthor to get the info, is Steve Lombard. He's a relatively unscrupulous guy.

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Old 06-27-2013, 02:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Glasses Problem

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The Planet people weren't close enough to recognize him easily, but enough to understand that Clark looks like Superman.
Maybe? I don't remember them being that close. As close as they were, they'd know that they're both tall guys with black hair. That's not super specific.

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Also, it was announced on national TV that Lois and not-yet-called-Superman knew each other. Lois clearly has the exclusive. People looking for Superman have her as their #1 lead. For the people at the Planet, that in tandem with the big kiss would strongly indicate a relationship.
I disagree. Perry knows Lois was tracking this guy down, that's how they're connected. A reasonably intelligent person isn't going to assume a romantic relationship based solely on one kiss between two attractive people in the middle of a stressful crisis.

Of course, Clark and Lois starting a relationship might get Perry thinking along those lines, but it's hardly proof and a veteran journalist like Perry wouldn't assume that Clark is Superman just based on that.

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And unfortunately, the flimsiness of Superman's disguise is part of the real world pop culture discourse. Not mentioning it doesn't work like it would for another hero.
I disagree. If you never put him in a situation where the disguise would fail, the audience probably won't think much about it.

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Overthinking it would be 'well, the NSA can do facial tracking on street cameras, so eventually they'd find him!' 'How did Clark get the exact job he wanted so quickly in this economy, right after such an epic disaster?' is overthinking it. Why Steve Lombard can't put two and two together, and no one else bothers to try to, that's pretty simple, pretty in your face.
I disagree that Steve Lobard has two and two to put together in the first place. All he has is the fact that he saw Superman for a couple of seconds at a distance. I see no reason to assume that he, or anyone else at the Planet staff, would recognize Clark as Superman right away. I see reason to think why Perry might figure it out after a while, and I think that's a cool rout to take with the story, but from the events of the film I feel like Clark has a little cover from being discovered by his co-workers.

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The idea of Superman never coming into close contact with anyone is interesting, however, I don't think that's reasonable. He never speaks to the people he rescues? No one can get a shot of this guy?
I never said that he should never get in close contact with anyone. I said that he should never sit down for an interview or photos. There's a difference. Sure, he'd probably talk to the people he rescues. Odds are, none of the people he rescues will ever meet him as Clark Kent. And he's fast enough that, should he choose to avoid being photographed, then yes, no one will be able to get a shot of him.

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Writing it so people think about it sounds good in theory, but afaik, that's done by making something cool. No one thinks about the physics of a good fight scene because it's cool to watch. I don't know if you can make the glasses 'cool.'
I disagree. Making something "cool" isn't how you get the audience to not think about something. At least, it is a way but it's not the only way. And, in fact, in this case making it cool wouldn't do that because it would draw attention to it.

Another way is to tailor your plot and the interactions of your characters so that the question just doesn't come up in the minds of the audience. If you don't draw attention to the idea that the Daily Planet staff got a good look at Superman's face, the audience probably won't think much about it. If you never put Superman in a position where he sits down and talks to someone who might see him as Clark, the audience won't think much about it. If you never have Superman pose for photographs or give a public recorded interview, the audience won't think much about it.

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Perry, like the Smallville people would likely be protective, and Jenny would follow suit. The loose cannon, and I think he'd make a great sub story arc for Luthor to get the info, is Steve Lombard. He's a relatively unscrupulous guy.
This is based on the assumption that they were close enough and looking at him long enough to see a significant resemblance between Clark and Superman, and that's not how it looked when I saw it. Looked to me like they were a couple hundred feet away with a bunch of soldiers and debris in between them and Superman, and he was standing in profile from their perspective, and after a couple of seconds he turned away to deal with Zod.

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Old 06-27-2013, 02:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Glasses Problem

And I'm sure the army General got a good look at him when he talked to Superman through the glass mirror, also the army girl saying he looks "kind of hot" clearly now has in her mind what Superman looks like so if she happens to bump into Clark she'll recognize a "hot guy" right away.

my head is hurting now.

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Old 06-27-2013, 02:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Glasses Problem

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And I'm sure the army General got a good look at him when he talked to Superman through the glass mirror, also the army girl saying he looks "kind of hot" clearly now has in her mind what Superman looks like so if she happens to bump into Clark she'll recognize a "hot guy" right away.

my head is hurting now.
And how likely is it for either of them to ever cross paths with Clark Kent?

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Old 06-27-2013, 03:09 PM   #7
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Maybe? I don't remember them being that close. As close as they were, they'd know that they're both tall guys with black hair. That's not super specific.
Not specific, but they'd know that Clark could pass for Superman at that range. Again... that's cool. That wouldn't come to someone's mind unless they had some reason for it too.

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I disagree. Perry knows Lois was tracking this guy down, that's how they're connected. A reasonably intelligent person isn't going to assume a romantic relationship based solely on one kiss between two attractive people in the middle of a stressful crisis.
Again, no one would base it solely on the kiss, literally everyone knows that Lois (and only Lois) knows Superman personally. How romantic they think the relationship is is almost immaterial - but I think most would assume there was a romantic aspect to the relationship, at least after that. Regardless, Perry simply knows why Lois knows Superman personally, but everyone knows they know each other, because it was on national TV. The association is already there, the kiss just qualifies the nature of the relationship.

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Of course, Clark and Lois starting a relationship might get Perry thinking along those lines, but it's hardly proof and a veteran journalist like Perry wouldn't assume that Clark is Superman just based on that.
Perry or Steve or Jenny. Also, keep in mind these are people whose job is to pay attention to details. They wouldn't naturally need "We're in a relationship now!" to start that association in their minds.

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I disagree. If you never put him in a situation where the disguise would fail, the audience probably won't think much about it.
Well, we just disagree here, because I'm convinced that the audience is already thinking about it, since they've been talking about it since 1978.

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I disagree that Steve Lobard has two and two to put together in the first place. All he has is the fact that he saw Superman for a couple of seconds at a distance. I see no reason to assume that he, or anyone else at the Planet staff, would recognize Clark as Superman right away. I see reason to think why Perry might figure it out after a while, and I think that's a cool rout to take with the story, but from the events of the film I feel like Clark has a little cover from being discovered by his co-workers.
No one would recognize him right away. I'm not sure what cover you're seeing though. Unless something happens, him being discovered is just a matter of time.

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I never said that he should never get in close contact with anyone. I said that he should never sit down for an interview or photos. There's a difference. Sure, he'd probably talk to the people he rescues. Odds are, none of the people he rescues will ever meet him as Clark Kent. And he's fast enough that, should he choose to avoid being photographed, then yes, no one will be able to get a shot of him.

I disagree. Making something "cool" isn't how you get the audience to not think about something. At least, it is a way but it's not the only way. And, in fact, in this case making it cool wouldn't do that because it would draw attention to it.

Another way is to tailor your plot and the interactions of your characters so that the question just doesn't come up in the minds of the audience. If you don't draw attention to the idea that the Daily Planet staff got a good look at Superman's face, the audience probably won't think much about it. If you never put Superman in a position where he sits down and talks to someone who might see him as Clark, the audience won't think much about it. If you never have Superman pose for photographs or give a public recorded interview, the audience won't think much about it.
You're talking about Superman not being a public figure, about him dodging camera phones. I think this is the story gymnastics that Goyer was talking about it. It's natural for Superman to be caught on camera. It's natural for Superman to come to the Daily Planet at some point. To write around that - simply to avoid the flimsiness of the disguise, I doubt anyone can make that seem natural, because it's very much not.

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This is based on the assumption that they were close enough and looking at him long enough to see a significant resemblance between Clark and Superman, and that's not how it looked when I saw it. Looked to me like they were a couple hundred feet away with a bunch of soldiers and debris in between them and Superman, and he was standing in profile from their perspective, and after a couple of seconds he turned away to deal with Zod.
I didn't see any soldiers or debris in their way, and it didn't at all seem like a football field's distance, and it was almost a full minute.

Details aside, that was not my assumption at all. My assumption is that writing Superman as a camera-dodger is unnatural and/or anti-heroic, and possibly outside of Goyer's ability to write believably. That angle never even entered my mind, and it doesn't sound like a good idea to rob Superman of his story as a public figure to obfuscate something everyone's already talking about anyway.

I would suggest dealing with it head on and doing damage control, rather than risking having an elephant in the room.

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Old 06-27-2013, 03:12 PM   #8
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And how likely is it for either of them to ever cross paths with Clark Kent?
Well reporters all always in the middle of the action thet Clark would be covering events like disasters/floods/alien invasions in which the army gets involved.

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Old 06-27-2013, 04:03 PM   #9
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Again, no one would base it solely on the kiss, literally everyone knows that Lois (and only Lois) knows Superman personally. How romantic they think the relationship is is almost immaterial - but I think most would assume there was a romantic aspect to the relationship, at least after that. Regardless, Perry simply knows why Lois knows Superman personally, but everyone knows they know each other, because it was on national TV. The association is already there, the kiss just qualifies the nature of the relationship.
How does one kiss qualify the nature of their relationship? If there's never any indication of Lois and Superman seeing each other socially, the nature of their relationship is that she discovered him and they kissed once, as far as anyone else knows.


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You're talking about Superman not being a public figure,
No I'm not. He's already a public figure. A person can be a public figure without being photographed. All being a public figure means is that the public is aware of and interested in your existence.

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about him dodging camera phones. I think this is the story gymnastics that Goyer was talking about it. It's natural for Superman to be caught on camera. It's natural for Superman to come to the Daily Planet at some point. To write around that - simply to avoid the flimsiness of the disguise, I doubt anyone can make that seem natural, because it's very much not.
I don't see how it's unnatural for Superman to never be photographed, or to never go to the Daily Planet. Simply have him make a conscious decision to avoid being photographed and to never go to the Daily Planet as Superman. Why does that seem unnatural. If you're trying to hide your identity, that feels perfectly natural to me.

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I didn't see any soldiers or debris in their way, and it didn't at all seem like a football field's distance, and it was almost a full minute.
It was far less than a minute. They were able to see his face for ten, fifteen seconds tops. He landed, kissed Lois, they talked for about three seconds, and then he turned to deal with Zod.

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Details aside, that was not my assumption at all. My assumption is that writing Superman as a camera-dodger is unnatural and/or anti-heroic, and possibly outside of Goyer's ability to write believably. That angle never even entered my mind, and it doesn't sound like a good idea to rob Superman of his story as a public figure to obfuscate something everyone's already talking about anyway.

I would suggest dealing with it head on and doing damage control, rather than risking having an elephant in the room.
How is anti-heroic to not stand still for people to take your photograph?

And how does avoiding photographs make him stop being a public figure? He's still a public figure even if nobody has a good photo of him.

I really don't see why having him avoid being photographed is a problem. It's how you solve the problem of the secret identity, and I don't see what's lost by doing it.

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Well reporters all always in the middle of the action thet Clark would be covering events like disasters/floods/alien invasions in which the army gets involved.
There are 1.4 million active duty military personnel. Odds are, they won't run into each other again.

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Old 06-28-2013, 03:24 PM   #10
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How does one kiss qualify the nature of their relationship? If there's never any indication of Lois and Superman seeing each other socially, the nature of their relationship is that she discovered him and they kissed once, as far as anyone else knows.
That's not how people tend to think. If all I know is that two people know each other, and the only time I've seen them together, they were engaged in a passionate kiss, I would presume there is a strong romantic aspect to their relationship... in this case, and in every other similar case I've run into, I would be correct.

This idea that people would view their only glimpse into this relationship as an isolated incident doesn't vibe with human thinking.

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No I'm not. He's already a public figure. A person can be a public figure without being photographed. All being a public figure means is that the public is aware of and interested in your existence.
That's true, public figure is the wrong term then. Heroic persona is probably closer to what I'm thinking of.

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I don't see how it's unnatural for Superman to never be photographed, or to never go to the Daily Planet. Simply have him make a conscious decision to avoid being photographed and to never go to the Daily Planet as Superman. Why does that seem unnatural. If you're trying to hide your identity, that feels perfectly natural to me.
So if he's carrying someone to safety, he makes sure he does it out of camera shot? Or he only saves people when they're alone? The notion makes sense, yes, but the application doesn't. Story gymnastics.

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It was far less than a minute. They were able to see his face for ten, fifteen seconds tops. He landed, kissed Lois, they talked for about three seconds, and then he turned to deal with Zod.
Then they kissed some more, *then* turned to deal with Zod. It wasn't a quick blink-and-you'll miss it thing by any means.

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How is anti-heroic to not stand still for people to take your photograph?

And how does avoiding photographs make him stop being a public figure? He's still a public figure even if nobody has a good photo of him.

I really don't see why having him avoid being photographed is a problem. It's how you solve the problem of the secret identity, and I don't see what's lost by doing it.
People take pictures even when you're not standing still. Even when you're rescuing people or fighting villains. Superman hiding is anti-heroic. That's kind of opposite of the trajectory, purpose and theme of Superman. That is one solution though, that Superman hides from the public to protect his identity, but I liked the tack they were taking with the end of MOS. Superman knows people are looking for them, and he doesn't hide as Superman. He confronts, he does damage control, and the persona who is hiding is Clark, not Superman. I liked that, I wouldn't want to lose that.

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Old 07-08-2013, 09:11 PM   #11
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  1. Okay, so Superman makes out with Lois in front of Perry, Jenny and Steve Lombard. Cool.
  2. Clark then puts on some glasses and walks into the Daily Planet. Hmm... this could be a problem.
  3. Lois then starts making googly eyes, signifying that she and Clark will have some sort of workplace relationship that will eventually get people to wonder what Superman thinks about this... waitaminute.
  4. This is a room full of reporters, by the way. Their job is t find stuff out.
  5. What happens when Superman gets an up close and personal in an interview or a photograph?

Now I know what some of you might say

A) No one would expect to find Superman amongst them. Except... they would in MOS-verse. Zod said he is among you, looks like one of you.

B) The may think he's just a guy that looks like Superman. One time, this famous person lost a lookalike contest after all. Unless there's someone else around the Daily Planet that looks more like Superman than Clark Kent, this doesn't help.

C) Clark's act is so convincing, people can't help but believe he's just a normal guy! ... but we all know the act is not convincing. Especially to a group of reporters who are always looking for the next story, who can go to some other outlet if need be.

So... what to do, what to do? I have some thoughts, but I'm curious about yours...

Here's what Goyer himself had to say at Bleeding Cool
why would they need another guy who looks like auperman work at the daily planet? why not mcdonalds or anywhere for that matter. it's not like the only possivle place superman could work is the daily planet. and we always knew superman looked human. zod's statemwnt is irrelevant. I say have pwrry just figure it out. let the pwople of amallville protect him.
but in the end it's fiction. don't overthink it.

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Old 07-08-2013, 09:17 PM   #12
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in order for superman to become a symbol of hope for humanity, an example to live up to, an inspiration he has to allow himself to be photpgraphed. he must talk directly to the human race at times through, interviews, statements, or speeches. MOS missed that opportunity. people ahould have felt hope that this guy was going to save them.

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Old 07-08-2013, 09:29 PM   #13
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plus with satwlites and security cameras, maybe Ihop has em, he's going to get photographed. hell thwy probably got him on camera when he was at the police station with lois aftwr he turned himaelf in. it's ok because superman is not real.

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