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Old 06-27-2013, 07:18 PM   #401
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Are you talking about IM or Avengers?
The Avengers!

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Old 06-27-2013, 07:18 PM   #402
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To me, The Avengers was a GREAT film on my first viewing, but the second time in theatres and the repeated viewings on Blu-ray....it just doesn't hold up as much as it did to me in the first viewing. It's all the more of a popcorn flick but nothing really holding it besides actions and effects. When it comes to a CBM with heart and soul, I feel that Iron Man is the only film in the MCU that has much depth to it. Which is sad, because I would have preferred the films to have the most of it having my favorite Marvel superhero, Captain America.

STILL, though, The Avengers does rank pretty dang high when it comes to Marvel films, but that's only because I don't find many Marvel films to be exceptionally special.

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Can't say I agree with this list...
I think the list of films are fine, but just the order itself is something I certainly can't agree with.

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Old 06-27-2013, 07:24 PM   #403
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Hate to be on here dissing Marvel's films but I just cant help but feel the routine of "rinse and repeat". Their formula is just predictable. It feels like I can write the script as a joke before I go into each movie and it would probably turn out pretty similar once I exit the theater.

Green Lantern felt like it could have belonged in a Marvel Studio production.

But yeah, Iron Man 1 is their best so far.

Thor 2 and Cap 2 could be promising. They seem different enough to their origins. But we'll see how that goes.

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Old 06-27-2013, 07:39 PM   #404
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To be fair, Green Lantern would have been the worst MCU film if it were from them.

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Old 06-27-2013, 07:45 PM   #405
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I agree. I don't like many of the marvel movies but id rather sit down and watch Thor than GL any day of the week.

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Old 06-27-2013, 08:23 PM   #406
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Not everything has to be The Dark Knight but some substance behind explosions is always nice. Avengers felt like it came off an assembly line and like it was Transformers with superheroes, at least to me.

Iron Man's still great because there's character development, a great plot, fantastic performances and the character arc of Tony Stark is one of my favourites in any CBM. Avengers, I felt none of the passion and care from Iron Man. It felt heartless.
You're spot on there. Iron Man is still the best Marvel movie made so far.

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Old 06-27-2013, 10:11 PM   #407
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I think Marvel did try to push it with Iron-Man 3 and Black's intentions with his villains. Unfortunately, the big bad had bad writing.

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Old 06-28-2013, 12:13 AM   #408
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I'd take Avengers' ending and climax over TDKR and Man of Steel's any day.

At least it had a nice little moment that focused on the aftermath of the destruction and the people the heroes fought for.

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Old 06-28-2013, 12:22 AM   #409
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^ I wouldn't.


But, anywho....

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Old 06-28-2013, 12:26 AM   #410
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^ I wouldn't.






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Old 06-28-2013, 12:28 AM   #411
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That was even better than The Avengers

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Old 06-28-2013, 12:31 AM   #412
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If that was actually TDKR's ending, maybe then it might have actually been nominated for an Oscar.

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Old 06-28-2013, 12:32 AM   #413
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I'm sure milost would still hate it though

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Old 06-28-2013, 12:33 AM   #414
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What? No way. I'd have actually been pumped!



Bateman > Bruce the Tourist

Nigel Powers > Tearful Butler




I'd be concerned for Selina's well being though.

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Old 06-28-2013, 12:36 AM   #415
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:52 AM   #416
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I'm a DC guy who loves both DC and MARVEL movies. There are different strokes for different folks. But I enjoy them all.

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Old 06-28-2013, 02:57 AM   #417
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I'm not hung up on a version of Batman but am a big fan of the character and what he stands for. That is why I can enjoy all version's and not get picky about a particular version.

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Old 06-28-2013, 03:56 AM   #418
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The Informers. Not great.

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Old 06-28-2013, 04:53 AM   #419
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To be fair, Green Lantern would have been the worst MCU film if it were from them.
Maybe, but I do feel that GL gets harsher treatment than it deserves, in the sense that it feels much the same as the Marvel Formula (TM) to me. It's not a good movie, but the visuals are at least partially impressive. I don't like it, but nor do I understand the "worst. CBM. Ever." sentiment, when it exists in the same world as IM2 etc.

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Old 06-28-2013, 01:06 PM   #420
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IM2 isn't even the worst CBM ever.

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Old 06-28-2013, 01:25 PM   #421
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No, you're right. But it was reasonably well received and I remember, when watching it with my girlfriend, her turning to me and asking "this actually got decent reviews?" I couldn't defend it. It was the first Marvel CBM I saw where the Marvel Formula TM was so obvious. Everything about it was so lazy and cynical- the script seemed to be written by tick boxes.

Given the immaculate reviews it received and the box office it took, plus good word of mouth from fans, I thought that The Avengers couldn't fail to be better. Within perhaps half an hour, I thought to myself, "they've done it again". It felt like an achievement of commercial strategy, and little else. Here were The Avengers, all presented like a complete set of action figures. Here was story no.47(b) from the comicbook cliche backlog, adjusted to meet 9/10 market research tick-boxes. Switch on the money machine.

I hate feeling like a grouch about this, and I am genuinely pleased that so many fans enjoy these films. But I just find them patronizing, insulting to my intelligence and my reasonable expectations about the minimum extent to which a movie should be creative. I know I nit-pick the hell out of Nolan's Batmovies, but that is probably because there is obviously a vision and a degree of artistry there which I find engaging, if occasionally frustrating. The Marvel Movie Machine, for me, produces guilty pleasures without the pleasure- just a surfeit of dumb.

Anyway, Marvel fans must forgive me- I am not arguing that there is anything wrong with the IP and I recognize the popularity of these films. I would just hate to see my favourite characters given the same treatment.

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Old 06-28-2013, 02:04 PM   #422
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No, you're right. But it was reasonably well received and I remember, when watching it with my girlfriend, her turning to me and asking "this actually got decent reviews?" I couldn't defend it. It was the first Marvel CBM I saw where the Marvel Formula TM was so obvious. Everything about it was so lazy and cynical- the script seemed to be written by tick boxes.

Given the immaculate reviews it received and the box office it took, plus good word of mouth from fans, I thought that The Avengers couldn't fail to be better. Within perhaps half an hour, I thought to myself, "they've done it again". It felt like an achievement of commercial strategy, and little else. Here were The Avengers, all presented like a complete set of action figures. Here was story no.47(b) from the comicbook cliche backlog, adjusted to meet 9/10 market research tick-boxes. Switch on the money machine.

I hate feeling like a grouch about this, and I am genuinely pleased that so many fans enjoy these films. But I just find them patronizing, insulting to my intelligence and my reasonable expectations about the minimum extent to which a movie should be creative. I know I nit-pick the hell out of Nolan's Batmovies, but that is probably because there is obviously a vision and a degree of artistry there which I find engaging, if occasionally frustrating. The Marvel Movie Machine, for me, produces guilty pleasures without the pleasure- just a surfeit of dumb.

Anyway, Marvel fans must forgive me- I am not arguing that there is anything wrong with the IP and I recognize the popularity of these films. I would just hate to see my favourite characters given the same treatment.
Although I do find The Avengers and most Marvel films to be enjoyable, I agree with you from the most part. Despite the varying degree of opinion on TDKR, I think it's safe to say that Nolan's Batman films were simply "on another level" in terms of filmmaking, artistry, creative freedom, and cinematic achievement.

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Old 06-28-2013, 02:22 PM   #423
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Although I do find The Avengers and most Marvel films to be enjoyable, I agree with you from the most part. Despite the varying degree of opinion on TDKR, I think it's safe to say that Nolan's Batman films were simply "on another level" in terms of filmmaking, artistry, creative freedom, and cinematic achievement.
I may sound like a fanboy, but it was an absolute honor and pleasure to have someone like Nolan work on such an iconic character as Batman. I was such a big fan after Memento and Insomnia (hadn't yet seen Following). When I first saw BB, it was just a few minutes into the movie when I felt it was something special. Then when I reached the training montage on the ice, I absolutely knew.

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Old 06-28-2013, 06:36 PM   #424
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I really don't get this ripping of Avengers (or Marvel Studios for that matter), I really don't. It's like we're treating it like it's a soulless piece of box office strategy here. Why? Because it's a crowd pleaser? Because it's lighter tone? That's pretty pretentious to think that it's simply a movie for mouth breathers that don't want to think. These movies are made to purely entertain, plain and simple. Nolan will tell you that, Whendon will tell you that. They hopefully live for the smiles, the applause, etc.

TDKR isn't exactly some high art (certainly not what people try and make it out to be), it over compensated too. The movies' giant, climax, is proof of this. It had commercial blockbuster written all over it too, and people ate it up. You think everyone that saw it was thinking about symmetry or symbolism, allegories and character arcs? No. I'm sure there were people that saw it for Batman's new, big flying vehicle, DA BAT. Or Batman fighting bad guys, or Bane punching out Batman. Just like some people look at Avengers like pieces of colorful candy with big explosions and big dumb action like Iron Man pew pewing and Cap throwing his shield. These things are only what we're willing to invest ourselves in nothing more, nothing less.

We're talking about character development? Alright. Put aside your bias for all that is Anne Hathaway and look at Catwoman as she is on the written page and on screen. Is she really all that different and more "developed" as far as character goes than say Black Widow? Absolutely not. Catwoman has that whole lame, one-dimensional "clean slate" deal. Black Widow has that lame "I've got red in my ledger and I'm looking to do good deeds to get rid of it" thing going on.

We know that they were both hardened, rotten little girls (either by stealling or killing and being an assassin) and now they're trying to be clean. That ain't exactly deep or complex.

But you know what? I like them for superficial reasons and that's totally fine. They only insult your intelligence if you let it get to you. Other characters like Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark or Steve Rogers haul around the dynamics, the moral issues, the character evolutions.




Avengers doesn't feel like some dumbed down, self-indulgent crap that was thrown on screen to sell tickets. You can SEE the work and effort that went into it, and the love. The character interactions are GOLDEN (better than TDKR's, the main 4 heroes anyway), that's what the film was MADE for. Character interaction. The lines are quick, smart and witty. Can anyone debate that it's poorly written? Are there really any cringe worthy Goyerisms or long, speechy Nolan rants that are repeated just in case you forgot what was going on? The references are fantastic too and fit the reactions of the characters. Galaga, Wizard of Oz, etc. how is this stuff "dumb"? I mean, is Avengers and it's characters really comparable to something like Transformers? Really? Those characters have no soul. Tony Stark, Rogers, Thor, Banner, Loki? They're FULL of character and are great, uniquely crafted archetypes. It's not like there are potty jokes and mechanical testicles for children to giggle at.


I keep seeing "they lack development", well that's simply not true. In fact, the movie thrives on development. It's not all mind numbing action (like Man of Steel towards the end that everyone seems to love and have in their avatars and sigs), there's Cap dealing with his problems, Stark with his insecurities, Thor having to battle his brother, Banner dealing with the Hulk and his fear of destroying everyone closest to him. There's plenty of development for a film that focuses on not one, not two, not three, not four, but MANY main characters.



I heard laughter, I heard clapping, I heard cheering, how can that all be forced and non-genuine. How is it something that "the suits" dictate and control to grab more $$$? That's sort of insulting to everyone involved isn't it?





Now I love Batman, I'm much more of a Batman guy then I am Marvel, Avengers or what have you. But the crap slinging on Avengers in here, and other "lower" movies is just sort of obnoxious. Art? Another level? TDKR is still a big, dumb, comic book movie with a nuclear bomb macguffin that's going to destroy the entire city if the hero doesn't stop it. Man of Steel even more so. It still has the cliched, big bad who's out to destroy said city and has little complexity. It has forced cringe worthy dialogue, it has big action packed scenes, etc. etc.


The difference is tone. The only thing I'll give the filmmakers a hand on for TDKR is it's gorgeous cinematography and it's use of practical effects over CGI unless it's un-doable. That's it.


As far as depth goes, there's no way TDKR is "on another level" than Avengers. The viewer dictates that entirely when they walk in and sit in the darkened theater. If you're going to not give a film the benefit of the doubt and think, "oh, this is just a big, dumb, "funny", action movie" chances are, that's what you're going to get. Especially when you're looking for it. It's called bias.


If TDKR was so "much more" than what people make it out to be, there would be character moments that don't feel like they're on fast forward suffering from pacing issues because the plot is so bloated. When Bruce comes in through the window and Gordon talks and sees him for the first time, we would have actually FELT like this was a scene of old friends seeing each other after a long, 8 years. Not a sped up, blink and you miss it scene that jumps into the next plot point.

If this was so much more, there would actually be a class war allegory depicted on scene. If this was so much more, Nolan wouldn't have been looking to top big, action sequences from previous movies or make a bigger, badder movie. He'd have made it more personal, more indie and artsy version of Batman, an actual character study of Bruce Wayne locked away in his big old Mansion secluded from the rest of the world. Not an action blockbuster with characters that are preachy, exposition spewing stand ins for specific ideals or themes.



The difference is tone. Just because Avengers isn't a droll, depressing film about over coming pain and moving on doesn't mean that it's dull. It's enthusiastic, vibrant and ingenious. About characters coming together (multiple characters that were built up in a handful of other films in the same world, something that hasn't been done before) and putting aside their differences to fight a common threat. It's a melting pot of colorful characters . . . sorta like a comic book. You know, the very things these things are based off of?




This criterion, pseudo-film buff attitude towards these films does nothing but make us more jaded and cynical. Worrying about Oscars, awards, what other people think, the standards they have, it just ruins the very reason we go see these things. When I see lists of favorite movies, or top 100s and I see kids slapping their heads in disapproval like it's common knowledge that "this is better than that", it sort of puts things in perspective really.


I think TDKR is pure crap, inferior to Begins and straight up mediocre compared to The Dark Knight. But that doesn't mean it's without merit or that other people that love it are being hypnotized into dumb zombies. Or that they're being controlled by the filmmakers and companies. Or that they don't have "taste" (which is purely subjective).


I just don't understand this "holier than thou" attitude at all. If anything, these are all "crappy" comic book movies that we fans over-exaggerate and over-expose to the point of delusion. This is "superhero hype" after all.


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Old 06-28-2013, 06:44 PM   #425
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^ Good post. Didn't agree with some of it, but a good post all the same. Avengers bashing just reminds me of the TDK backlash the movie got after it made its money.

Do I think Avengers was the best comic book movie ever? No, but its definitely in the top 5, and its definitely not the Michael Bay-esque picture some want to paint it as.

Hell, MOS could've learned a few things from Avengers.

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