The Official Lex Luthor Casting Thread - Part 8

[Kevin Smith]

Originally Posted by Eddie Dean

We have a Superman without undies,

Still looks like Superman, wears red and blue, flies and has a cape (no armor ).

a red headed Lois,

Lois has been drawn with red hair before and prominently so.

a Perry White with an earring,

Meh. Nobody gives a **** about Perry White. He was even drawn black in Superman TAS.

a stone cold fox Ma Kent,

Eh. Depends on your age I guess. So the Kents are a little younger.

etc... A black Lex isn't a big deal.

Yeah it is. The two bookends of the Superman universe have to be left in tact. You can't change them. Make Superman a blond, make Luthor black...why even make a Superman movie at all? That's not the characters.

[Majik1387]

That's not why Uncle Ben was killed.

[Eddie Dean]

Originally Posted by Majik1387

That's not why Uncle Ben was killed.

More or less. It's different than the comic origin anyways.

[Eddie Dean]

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

Meh. Nobody gives a **** about Perry White. He was even drawn black in Superman TAS.

Nope. But even still, this confuses. If Lex was drawn black in a comic, would you be all for it? Even though, according to your logic, that is not Lex? As long as it's in the comics, a-ok? There's a ton of stupid **** in comics.

[KillerMcQueen]

Can you please come up with better reasoning than "that's not the characters"? If making Lex black somehow profoundly changes who the character is, and what his motivations are, and if a Blonde Superman (which I think half decent costume designers could pretty easily make work, though blonde kinda falls into the "change for change's sake category, considering that hair dye exists) suddenly turns him into a completely different character, than I'd like to hear an actual reason.

[Eddie Dean]

Also, Diane Lane is a goddess and I will hear nothing less.

[regwec]

What if the colour came out wrong on a print run of a comic, making Lex look black? Would that validate the casting of a black actor in the role?

[Kevin Smith]

Originally Posted by Eddie Dean

Wolverine isn't 6' 2".

The X-Men movies are a travesty compared to what Marvel is doing now. That's my only complaint with Jackman.

Harry Osbourne isn't a handsome, confident, James Franco type.

Miscast but it's a supporting character so I again refer to the Perry White rule of "who cares".

Uncle Ben wasn't killed because Peter Parker refused to pay for Chocolate milk.

Hated that, completely unnecessary and stupid change, was perfect how they did it in the Rami movie.

Phil Coulson does not exist.

There's countless "faceless" SHIELD agents, it's reasonable to believe either a Phil Coulson or Phil Coulson type most likely exists in the Marvel U. They just gave a SHIELD agent a name in the movie. Oh, and then they killed him. Fine by me and less sacrilege than killing Fury.

It's called an adaptation for a reason.

Most of those were all wrong and held the characters back from blossoming like their comics counterparts. 90% of the time what is done on screen creatively is not superior to what's been done in the comics and therefore should be left alone, in my opinion, because I do believe they should go with the best choices "creatively"....it's just 90% of the **** done in the films is less interesting and creative and does not work as well for the characters they are trying to adapt.

[bluearth]

Originally Posted by regwec

I don't see any problem with casting an actor of a race different to that usually attributed to any character, so long as that character doesn't have traits that would make the change problematic. Clark Kent doesn't work because he represents that archetypal, Middle-American, blue collar, white farm-boy thing. Bruce Wayne is the last son of a founding family of Gotham; he is a kind of aristocrat with an ancient European heritage. You have to have an actor that fits, unless you want to change the character itself. Lex Luthor is a highly intelligent, charismatic and ruthless megalomaniac. He is culturally neutral, and I fail to see why a non-white actor couldn't play the part.

On your second point, I don't think we can live in a post-racist world until we are able to show that people of all colours can be good or evil. It didn't raise any comment in Daredevil, anyway.

Yes, I agree. I thought the Justice League animated series Luthor was black for years. And hes my favorite interpretation of the character because of how he carried himself and how he was written. Kevin Spacey and Gene Hackman get zero bonus points in their performances as Luthor for being white.

[Kevin Smith]

Originally Posted by KillerMcQueen

You're gonna have to go deeper than that. He does have an iconic appearance, that is true, he also iconically wore red undies on his costume for nearly 75 years.

Sometimes that's all there is to it. Doesn't always have to be a deep, "profound" reason for the WHY of something, it's just the way it is. Superman wears red and blue. Why those colors? I don't know, but he has to have them. Getting rid of the undies was stupid and unnecessary but the look they went with was still good overall and looked more like Superman than the last suit so I was okay with it. Plus they already did it in the New 52 but the MOS suit, unlike the NU52 suit, actually looks good and is not complete ****.

Superman has dark hair. Clark Kent wears glasses. If all you want to do is change the characters and you can't be happy with simple things like that, why would you even bother touching them in the first place?

[Kevin Smith]

Originally Posted by Eddie Dean

Nope. But even still, this confuses. If Lex was drawn black in a comic, would you be all for it? Even though, according to your logic, that is not Lex? As long as it's in the comics, a-ok? There's a ton of stupid **** in comics.

If there were a run where Lex was black for sometime or they did it in an Earth 2 thing and it was big like Ultimate Marvel and made sense, then yeah, I would be okay with it.

But yeah, unless it's in the comics, it's not okay. Yeah, there's a ton of stupid **** in the comics, and this is where the movie creative decisions come in and they have a chance to change that and/or do something better. But to take something that works and is more than fine the way it is and is established and well known and change it just becauuuse... "eh, let's make him a black guy!" is wrong to me. Zero reason for it whatsoever other than somebody wanted to change it just for the hell of it.

[Kevin Smith]

Originally Posted by KillerMcQueen

Can you please come up with better reasoning than "that's not the characters"? If making Lex black somehow profoundly changes who the character is, and what his motivations are, and if a Blonde Superman (which I think half decent costume designers could pretty easily make work, though blonde kinda falls into the "change for change's sake category, considering that hair dye exists) suddenly turns him into a completely different character, than I'd like to hear an actual reason.

How does black Lex NOT fall into change for the sake of change? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Majik1387]

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

Meh. Nobody gives a **** about Perry White. He was even drawn black in Superman TAS.

Umm no he wasn't. Google is your friend.

Originally Posted by Eddie Dean

More or less. It's different than the comic origin anyways.

Barely.

Originally Posted by Eddie Dean

Also, Diane Lane is a goddess and I will hear nothing less.

True. Loved her Martha, and loved the country sass she brought to the role.

[KillerMcQueen]

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

Sometimes that's all there is to it. Doesn't always have to be a deep, "profound" reason for the WHY of something, it's just the way it is. Superman wears red and blue. Why those colors? I don't know, but he has to have them. Getting rid of the undies was stupid and unnecessary but the look they went with was still good overall and looked more like Superman than the last suit so I was okay with it. Plus they already did it in the New 52 but the MOS suit, unlike the NU52 suit, actually looks good and is not complete ****.

Superman has dark hair. Clark Kent wears glasses. If all you want to do is change the characters and you can't be happy with simple things like that, why would you even bother touching them in the first place?

you preferred the costume that took more creative liberties to the one that took less creative liberties? And the new 52 thing, if the comics are allowed to make changes, then why the hell can't film makers make changes? it's a different medium, and has to handle the characters slightly differently, I like that they don't make the characters carbon copies of what they are in the comics. as for changing them in the first place, I'm not saying they should make Superman blonde in the first place, if you'd actually payed attention to my post you'd have noticed that. and you're sidestepping the actual debate, restricting Lex to white actors limits your casting choices for the sake of preserving a physical trait that isn't even that iconic in the first place (if it's iconic at all)

[Kevin Smith]

Originally Posted by bluearth

Yes, I agree. I thought the Justice League animated series Luthor was black for years. And hes my favorite interpretation of the character because of how he carried himself and how he was written. Kevin Spacey and Gene Hackman get zero bonus points in their performances as Luthor for being white.

I never thought animated Luthor was black. If anything, MAYBE like hispanic or something, I could see someone thinking that, but I don't see how someone would think he is black at all (especially when there are other black characters on the show). I think they maybe need to adjust the color on their tv sets.

And I thought Kevin Spacey was great and completely misused in Superman Returns. He could have been the Post Crisis/animated Lex we all wanted to see but instead they had him doing...darker Gene Hackman. Gene Hackman could have made a great Luthor too but they wanted him to play it campy and comical, his character in the Quick and the Dead is pretty much proof of how awesome he could have played Luthor if they wrote him that way.

[Eddie Dean]

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

If there were a run where Lex was black for sometime or they did it in an Earth 2 thing and it was big like Ultimate Marvel and made sense, then yeah, I would be okay with it.

WHY??? I don't understand your logic!

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

But yeah, unless it's in the comics, it's not okay. Yeah, there's a ton of stupid **** in the comics, and this is where the movie creative decisions come in and they have a chance to change that and/or do something better. But to take something that works and is more than fine the way it is and is established and well known and change it just becauuuse... "eh, let's make him a black guy!" is wrong to me. Zero reason for it whatsoever other than somebody wanted to change it just for the hell of it.

Or maybe an actor is really talented and a perfect fit for Luthor, but it just happens that he's black?

[Kevin Smith]

Originally Posted by Majik1387

Umm no he wasn't. Google is your friend.

EDIT:

I meant early on. Not in the final designs. In one of the early looks for the show Perry was black.

[KillerMcQueen]

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

How does black Lex NOT fall into change for the sake of change? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

because unlike something like blonde hair, it could actually have an impact on the role itself, not because of the race, but because of the actor, I'm not suggesting that Snyder and co. go out and do a manhunt for a black or asian lex, I'm not suggesting they change it just to change it. I'm suggesting that they keep all options open, because there's doubtless quite a few non-white actors that could very well do very great things with the role, and it'd be a shame to see them not be considered because of something as shallow as skin color. And would you stop with the, "if it's not in the comics" BS, this is film, an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MEDIUM, it's just as viable an alternate take on characters as Marvel's Ultimate line (where they've made their fair share of changes, though I'm sure you'll have some stupid excuse for why you think this is a different situation)

[regwec]

I don't understand the thought process that leads to the assumption that, in this scenario, the decision will have been made to 'make him black', and 'for the sake of it'. Is it impossible that somebody would be chosen on merit, irrespective of race?

In any case, I have yet to hear a convincing explanation of why Lex' s race is important.

[Kevin Smith]

Originally Posted by KillerMcQueen

you preferred the costume that took more creative liberties to the one that took less creative liberties?

I preferred the suit that looked more like the "classic" Superman. Superman returns suit was probably one of, if not the worst live action Superman suit I have ever seen. They may have used the "outline" of the traditional look but they reeaaallly stretched it as far as that basic design would allow them so much so that I barely count it as a Superman suit. The MOS suit, while it is missing the undies and has the lines running over it, looks much more like Superman than the SR suit to me, easily.

And the new 52 thing, if the comics are allowed to make changes, then why the hell can't film makers make changes?

Comics can make changes that are good, and so can the movies. Making Luthor black and Superman blonde, those are not good changes to me, completely unnecessary, and should be left alone. Same goes for much of the NU52 to me for that matter. I hate the changes to the Superman suit. But I'm saying the MOS suit is more reverent of the classic look than what is in the comics right now, so I am OKAY with that.

it's a different medium, and has to handle the characters slightly differently, I like that they don't make the characters carbon copies of what they are in the comics.

Not asking for carbon copies, just asking that they keep the mainstays of the characters in tact, most of the things that I always thought went without saying.

as for changing them in the first place, I'm not saying they should make Superman blonde in the first place, if you'd actually payed attention to my post you'd have noticed that.

I'm not accusing you of wanting that, if anything I'm "accusing" you of approving of that, if you can say that at all.

and you're sidestepping the actual debate, restricting Lex to white actors limits your casting choices for the sake of preserving a physical trait that isn't even that iconic in the first place (if it's iconic at all)

But....it is "iconic". That is what Lex Luthor looks like. He is white. Therefore a white guy must play him. It is unnecessary to get someone of a different race, doesn't matter if they are the greatest actor in the planet. Unless they are going to make them that character (which they won't) then they are wrong for the part.

[KillerMcQueen]

Originally Posted by regwec

In any case, I have yet to hear a convincing explanation of why Lex' s race is important.

because there isn't one.

[KillerMcQueen]

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

But....it is "iconic". That is what Lex Luthor looks like. He is white. Therefore a white guy must play him. It is unnecessary to get someone of a different race, doesn't matter if they are the greatest actor in the planet. Unless they are going to make them that character (which they won't) then they are wrong for the part.

Lex doesn't have a background that's in ANY way effected by his race, and considering the racial ambiguity of TAS Lex, (again, possibly the GA's most iconic Lex) I fail to see how race plays an integral part in his casting, his appearance (apart from being bald) is nowhere near as iconic as Superman's, nor does his appearance have any sort of role in who he is.

[Kevin Smith]

Originally Posted by Eddie Dean

WHY??? I don't understand your logic!

Because it's the source material and it's a "different" character, assuming it's a "rebooted" version and not a retcon. A retcon would be pointless and I would be just as opposed to that as I am to pushing black Lex in the movie. It's unnecessary and it's NOT Lex Luthor.

Or maybe an actor is really talented and a perfect fit for Luthor, but it just happens that he's black?

Ain't no such thing. Lol. If he LOOKS NOTHING LIKE LUTHOR, then he is NOT a perfect pick for him! I don't care if Peter Dinklage can mimic Clancy Brown like a parrot, he's wrong for Lex Luthor because he looks nothing like him.

Get someone who's a good actor who looks like him. I don't know why this is so hard.

[bluearth]

Originally Posted by Kevin Smith

I never thought animated Luthor was black. If anything, MAYBE like hispanic or something, I could see someone thinking that, but I don't see how someone would think he is black at all (especially when there are other black characters on the show). I think they maybe need to adjust the color on their tv sets.

And I thought Kevin Spacey was great and completely misused in Superman Returns. He could have been the Post Crisis/animated Lex we all wanted to see but instead they had him doing...darker Gene Hackman. Gene Hackman could have made a great Luthor too but they wanted him to play it campy and comical, his character in the Quick and the Dead is pretty much proof of how awesome he could have played Luthor if they wrote him that way.

Animated luthor had a deep voice and drawn lips. Only black characters have drawn lips in that animation style. Thats why I thought he was black.

This face doenst scream white



Really though Kevin Smith your starting to sound like the guys who hated Daniel Craig as Bond because he was blonde.

I do see your point a bit. For a iconic character like Luthor to be white in the comics to suddenly become black would feel a bit unsettling and distracting because its something new. If Dwayne Johnson was was a better actor I wouldnt mind him getting the role. Hes not white or black and would provide a nice middle ground

I just think alot of people, including myself, want to see more ethnic groups in super hero films. The problem is since comics were made so long ago 99% of the characters are white. John Stewart as Green Lantern is a nice start and I'd like to see more of that

[shauner111]

Lex Luthor could be black. There's no explanation that makes sense because whatever race he is does not affect his attributes, his personality, his wealth, his ego, his intelligence, his whatever. All of the essence would be intact. This NEVER has to be an exact replica of the source material because it is NOT the comics. Things can be changed, and Lex Luthor being played by Dwayne Johnson (like somebody said, if his personality or acting matched what was needed a little more then it..) would be ABSOLUTELY FINE.