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Old 07-02-2013, 01:17 PM   #176
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Default Re: Discussion: Civil Liberties under attack?

Is there?

It still amounts to unseen people knowing exactly what you are doing and who you are doing it with and often why and so many of us offer this information up for free.

Then there's also the matter that actual cash is used to pay for things less often meaning nearly all of our transactions, even with soda machines are documented and easily accessible.

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Old 07-02-2013, 01:20 PM   #177
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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Why do you care? The important thing is the information he shared with the public. What country he went to to avoid prosecution is irrelevant. It only destroys his credibility because you choose to think that it matters. The information he leaked is still the information he leaked, regardless of what he did afterwards.
When Snowden was in China he told the Chinese government about the US's attempts to counter Chinese hacking of American military and industrial computer systems. He deliberately damaged this country's efforts to defend itself from a hostile foreign power. Snowden did not merely share this information with the American public as you said, but gave it to an adversary that is working to endanger his fellow citizens. That isn't merely hypocritical, it's treasonous.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...e-hacking.html

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:08 PM   #178
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When Snowden was in China he told the Chinese government about the US's attempts to counter Chinese hacking of American military and industrial computer systems. He deliberately damaged this country's efforts to defend itself from a hostile foreign power. Snowden did not merely share this information with the American public as you said, but gave it to an adversary that is working to endanger his fellow citizens. That isn't merely hypocritical, it's treasonous.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...e-hacking.html
I don't particularly see a reason to care.

We're not at war with China. China is not actively murdering American civilians. If that is true, I fail to see how that endangers the lives of American citizens.


Also, I question your categorizing China as an adversary and a hostile foreign power. Our economies absolutely depend on each other. We trade goods and services more than most other countries in the world. Every single American company than has international interests dies business in China. Chinese and American citizens travel to and from each country freely on a daily basis. Sure, we spy on them and they spy on us, but seeing as how both the United States and China spy on every other major world power, and every other major world power spies on both of them, I fail to see how they're any more our adversary than Great Britain is.

It seems to me that the notion of China as America's great enemy is pure hype, a holdover from cold war propaganda without much basis.


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IMO it's a valid point because it makes Snowden look like a hypocrite.
First of all, I really don't see how going to a place where you won't be extradited equals supporting the policies of the local government. It's not like he's said in a public statement that China is great and the US sucks. In fact he's said the opposite.

Second, I really don't see how wether or not he's a hypocrite matters. Who cares if he;s a hypocrite? Who cares what his motivations where? That's not the issue at all.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:12 PM   #179
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Is there?

It still amounts to unseen people knowing exactly what you are doing and who you are doing it with and often why and so many of us offer this information up for free.

Then there's also the matter that actual cash is used to pay for things less often meaning nearly all of our transactions, even with soda machines are documented and easily accessible.
One results in annoying adds. The other results in the government violently cracking down on constitutionally supported protests.

So yeah, big difference.

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Old 07-02-2013, 03:58 PM   #180
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

You really don't see how soliciting aid from a government with a far worse human rights record comes off as hypocrisy?

Clearly you have no understanding of basic international relations if you think the relationship between the US and China is comparable to the US' relationship with the UK.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:11 PM   #181
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You really don't see how soliciting aid from a government with a far worse human rights record comes off as hypocrisy?
I can definitely see that argument. I still don't agree with it, because seeking aid isn't the same thing as supporting policy and he's outright acknowledged China's ****ed up history of human rights.

More importantly, though, I can't see why anyone should care.

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Clearly you have no understanding of basic international relations if you think the relationship between the US and China is comparable to the US' relationship with the UK.
Yeah, but I didn't say that. I didn't say our relationship with China is the same as our relationship with the UK. I said that I don't see how China is any more our adversary than any other major world power. I just picked the UK to name because I thought it made for a better sounding sentence.

And I do fail to see how China is our adversary. We're not at war and we're not killing each other. Our intelligence agencies spy on each other and that's about as far as it goes. At the same time, there is no other country on Earth were have more regular and mutually vital trade relations with except for maybe Japan.

All of the ways in which they're our adversary boil down to bureaucracy and trumped up rhetoric. I highly doubt any American citizens will be hurt or killed as a result of any information Snowden might have shared with the Chinese. As such, I don't see a reason to care about that.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:21 PM   #182
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Let's see, regularly siding with (and aiding) countries who are openly hostile to the United States , waging an all but outright open cyber war against the United States... Not to mention Taiwan...

If for example, Snowden passed on information to China about American cyber security (which they regularly combat), that would be an act of treason.

It's true that the US is heavily dependent on trade with China, but at the end of the day they are adversaries, and everyone knows it.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:26 PM   #183
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Let's see, regularly siding with (and aiding) countries who are openly hostile to the United States , waging an all but outright open cyber war against the United States... Not to mention Taiwan...

If for example, Snowden passed on information to China about American cyber security (which they regularly combat), that would be an act of treason.

It's true that the US is heavily dependent on trade with China, but at the end of the day they are adversaries, and everyone knows it.
All of those things are true, but I still contest the use of the word adversaries. We're not at war with China and the Chinese government is not actively killing US citizens. That's the only kind of adversarial relationship that matters much. Everything else, the "cyber war," who they support, none of it has any meaning to the average person on the street. I don't think a country can really be much of an adversary if I can go on vacation there.

I get that, legally, it would be an act of treason. My point is that I don't see why that should matter. If Snowden has shared that information, I highly doubt any American is actually going to get hurt because of it. Legally, treason, sure. Treason in a way that actually matters? Not so much, no.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:31 PM   #184
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Technically we were never at war with the Soviet Union either. Or China back when they were outright killing Americans in Korea.

Treason is treason. It's not the end result that matters, it's the act itself. The Rosenbergs never killed anyone (well except for all the poor Russian civilians who died from radiation), they were still traitors.

If Daniel Ellsberg had taken the Pentagon Papers to China or Russia, he certainly wouldn't be considered a hero today. He'd be a traitor and a defector.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:39 PM   #185
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I don't particularly see a reason to care.

We're not at war with China.
The US may not be in a declared "hot" war with China, but they have been waging "cold" cyber-warfare on us. Chinese government hackers have stolen defense secrets, including sensitive weapons and missile defense technology, which they have then manufactured and used. They have stolen hundreds of billions of dollars worth of technical secrets from US companies, then given that information to their own companies to use in the creation of a wide variety of products. That is one way in which war is waged now: by stealing technology and turning it against its creators -- or turning a profit with it.

This is as damaging to the US, its people and its interests as almost anything another country could do. The Chinese are creating weapons with our own technology, something that rightly angers and concerns our government because it directly impacts America's ability to defend itself. The fact that you can't seem to understand that brings into question your understanding of the Snowden matter and your fitness to participate in a discussion of it. Someone who doesn't understand the issues involved probably shouldn't have so much to say about them.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:51 PM   #186
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

I'm sorry, Question. But that was a pretty silly statement. There's no greater example of a "frenemy" than China and a lot of people, including myself, think a war with them is all but inevitable.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:51 PM   #187
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Technically we were never at war with the Soviet Union either. Or China back when they were outright killing Americans in Korea.

Treason is treason. It's not the end result that matters, it's the act itself. The Rosenbergs never killed anyone (well except for all the poor Russian civilians who died from radiation), they were still traitors.

If Daniel Ellsberg had taken the Pentagon Papers to China or Russia, he certainly wouldn't be considered a hero today. He'd be a traitor and a defector.
No, it's the end result that matters. The end result is the only thing that matters. Acts only have meaning because of their consequences.

If Snowden actually did this, and no one os hurt by it, then why does it matter? Why does the action have any inherent value if it doesn't cause anyone any harm?

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The US may not be in a declared "hot" war with China, but they have been waging "cold" cyber-warfare on us. Chinese government hackers have stolen defense secrets, including sensitive weapons and missile defense technology, which they have then manufactured and used. They have stolen hundreds of billions of dollars worth of technical secrets from US companies, then given that information to their own companies to use in the creation of a wide variety of products. That is one way in which war is waged now: by stealing technology and turning it against its creators -- or turning a profit with it.
And my response to all of that is a big "so what?" So they're taking data from US companies, so what? I don't see how any of these things effect the average American or Chinese citizen. It seems to me that the only things hurt are corporate interests.

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This is as damaging to the US, its people and its interests as almost anything another country could do. The Chinese are creating weapons with our own technology, something that rightly angers and concerns our government because it directly impacts America's ability to defend itself.
How does it impact our ability to defend ourselves? We still spend more money on our military than then next 28 nations combined.

And, exactly what are we defending ourselves from? Again, we're not at war with China, so it's not like they're using that technology against us.

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The fact that you can't seem to understand that brings into question your understanding of the Snowden matter and your fitness to participate in a discussion of it. Someone who doesn't understand the issues involved probably shouldn't have so much to say about them.
Questioning my intelligence and level of understanding of the subject matter to dismiss me and say that I'm not fit to participate in a discussion is a cheap debating tactic that has nothing to do with you actually arguing your case. If you think I'm making a bad point, counter it with an actual argument, don't go for character attacks. You owe me an apology.

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I'm sorry, Question. But that was a pretty silly statement. There's no greater example of a "frenemy" than China and a lot of people, including myself, think a war with them is all but inevitable.
We were on far worse terms with the Russians and that never happened, and everyone thought war with them was all but inevitable too. A lot of people thinking it doesn't make it so.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:55 PM   #188
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You're seriously asking why treason is a crime?

I wonder if Snowden's defense will go with that if and when he gets extradited.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:56 PM   #189
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You're seriously asking why treason is a crime?
No. At no point did I ask that.

What I actually asked was this:

"If Snowden actually did this, and no one is hurt by it, then why does it matter? Why does the action have any inherent value if it doesn't cause anyone any harm?"

Although, let me rephrase slightly. When I said "If Snowden actually did this, and no one is hurt by it, then why does it matter?" what I meant was "If Snowden actually did this, and no one is hurt by it, and at no point could anyone have been hurt by it, then why does it matter?"

Please answer that question.

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Old 07-02-2013, 04:59 PM   #190
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Because he betrayed his country? Also known as treason. Which is illegal.

If he outright gave secrets to China or Russia, that just makes it so much worse for him legally. Not to mention ethically, given their human rights records.

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:02 PM   #191
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Because he betrayed his country? Also known as treason. Which is illegal.
Okay, at no point have I questioned the legality of this action. At no point did I say that it wasn't illegal. But something being illegal doesn't automatically make it wrong. There are plenty of illegal activities that aren't bad things to do, either inherently or situationally.

Betraying your country only means anything when doing so actually hurts the citizens of your country. Otherwise it's just an abstraction.

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:04 PM   #192
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We were on far worse terms with the Russians and that never happened, and everyone thought war with them was all but inevitable too. A lot of people thinking it doesn't make it so.
So just because we were extraordinarily lucky and didn't end up in a nukes-flying-like-maybugs scenario that means it would have been okay to leak secrets to them during the height of the Cold War? Perhaps we never went to war with them because they didn't learn enough about us through leaked intelligence to gain the upper-hand. Did you ever consider that? Maybe we should also leak drone technology to Iran. I mean, we're not at war with them. Your indifferent attitude towards the possible consequences of treason is dangerous and foolhardy.

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:11 PM   #193
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Okay, at no point have I questioned the legality of this action. At no point did I say that it wasn't illegal. But something being illegal doesn't automatically make it wrong. There are plenty of illegal activities that aren't bad things to do, either inherently or situationally.

Betraying your country only means anything when doing so actually hurts the citizens of your country. Otherwise it's just an abstraction.
Well, potentially, but, the way he is doing it sure seems suspect, going to countries like China and Russia... Who knows what he's given them.

There are nuances here. It's one thing to whistle blow, another to defect, and hand out secrets.

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:12 PM   #194
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So just because we were extraordinarily lucky and didn't end up in a nukes-flying-like-maybugs scenario that means it would have been okay to leak secrets to them during the height of the Cold War?
No, I didn't say that. I was specifically commenting on your opinion that war with China is all but inevitable. My point is that our relations with China are nowhere even close to that level of hostility, and in that case we still never went to war. Neither the US nor China has nowhere near the incentive or motivation to actually go to war with each other that the US and Russia had during the cold war.

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:29 PM   #195
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I'm sorry, Question. But that was a pretty silly statement. There's no greater example of a "frenemy" than China and a lot of people, including myself, think a war with them is all but inevitable.

China doesn't want a military war, it wants economic domination.

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:31 PM   #196
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For now. But I do think war between China and Japan is inevitable.

There is some very deep hatred there, and it hasn't dissipated at all. If anything it seems to be getting worse, as Chinese nationalism mounts.

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:52 PM   #197
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And my response to all of that is a big "so what?"
As I said before, you don't have any understanding of the issues involved and you prove it with everything you say. Either that or you're being willfully obtuse because you don't want to concede the obvious truth of the points being made by others. At this point it doesn't matter whether you are actually dense or just pretending to be. You simply have nothing of worth to add to the discussion so I am going to ignore you from now on.

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Old 07-02-2013, 09:11 PM   #198
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As I said before, you don't have any understanding of the issues involved and you prove it with everything you say. Either that or you're being willfully obtuse because you don't want to concede the obvious truth of the points being made by others. At this point it doesn't matter whether you are actually dense or just pretending to be. You simply have nothing of worth to add to the discussion so I am going to ignore you from now on.
You are being exceptionally rude. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine. If you want to tell me how I'm wrong, I'll gladly listen. In fact, I encourage it, I want to hear what you have to say. If I disagree, I'll say why, and round and round we'll go, exchanging views and ideas. That's the nature of a good debate, and good debate has an enormous amount of value. But opting to dismiss me and what I have to say, simply declaring yourself right and calling me dense and saying that I have nothing worth adding to the conversation instead of arguing your point is cheap, condescending, and rude. As I said before, you owe me an apology for that. That's not the way mature adults exchange ideas.

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Old 07-02-2013, 09:16 PM   #199
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If you're going to ignore someone's posts, then do it and skip the insults. That goes for everyone.

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Old 07-02-2013, 09:18 PM   #200
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As I said before, you don't have any understanding of the issues involved and you prove it with everything you say. Either that or you're being willfully obtuse because you don't want to concede the obvious truth of the points being made by others. At this point it doesn't matter whether you are actually dense or just pretending to be. You simply have nothing of worth to add to the discussion so I am going to ignore you from now on.
How about you take it down a notch? Try and discuss things in a civil manner.

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