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Old 07-02-2013, 01:47 PM   #576
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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Of course it'll piss off the fans who can't accept the fact it's their own interpretation. You can never have a 100% "pure" adaption of Batman (or any fictional character) because there's always gonna be changes and there's always changes in the source material.
I think fans accepted that. Hence why there was no complaints about say a black Harvey Dent. It's just some changes don't sit well with fans. I think it's ironic that Hamm backed them up.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:02 PM   #577
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

I don't mind the Joker killing Bruce's parents in '89. Its not something I would want in every Batman universe but in the Burton one it works. I also rather like the "don't be afraid" line in Batman Begins.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:09 PM   #578
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

I noticed something new re-watching Batman '89 recently. In one of Napier's introductory scenes, he stands vainly in front of a mirror. His girlfriend says "you look fine," and he in narcissistic fashion says "I didn't ask." Of course, as we all know, Nicholson's Joker is all about his image and when it is scarred he snaps. He's the "world's first fully functioning homicidal artist," inflicting his own tragedy upon others with glee.

Conversely, when Bruce is introduced to Vicki and Knox (and then leaves), the reporters walk over to a large mirror in Wayne Manor. "Bruce Wayne? More like Bruce vain!" jokes Knox. But the camera pans around through the mirror and we see that it is one-way glass, with Batman's surveillance cameras watching Vicki and Knox behind it. The mirror, just like Bruce Wayne's identity, is a facade. Any "vanity" or "wealth" Bruce has only covers up the Batcave and the Batman identity.

Both introductions make a big deal out of the mirror in the scene, with both mirrors showing differing aspects of the characters.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:16 PM   #579
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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It was Joe Chill pulling the trigger. I'll gladly take that over it being the Joker.
Sure, but just try to look beyond the necessity of comic book canon for a moment to how the scene is executed. For me, B89's is twice as artful and as haunting as the equivalent in BB.

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Both introductions make a big deal out of the mirror in the scene, with both mirrors showing differing aspects of the characters.
Good spot, I can't say I had noticed that link between the two scenes. I suppose the scene Vale's apartment, where Bruce smashes the mirror while retelling Jack Napier's story, could be read as a symbol for his shattering the illusion of dark glamour that Jack/The Joker tried to maintain. The Joker has no reply to it, and just retorts with the line that he clearly considered so impressive as a youth, before opening fire.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:26 PM   #580
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

That's a very nice catch ThePhantasm.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:34 PM   #581
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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Good spot, I can't say I had noticed that link between the two scenes. I suppose the scene Vale's apartment, where Bruce smashes the mirror while retelling Jack Napier's story, could be read as a symbol for his shattering the illusion of dark glamour that Jack/The Joker tried to maintain. The Joker has no reply to it, and just retorts with the line that he clearly considered so impressive as a youth, before opening fire.
Very nice, I hadn't thought of that. So there's a third application of the mirror imagery, this time with both characters present. The Joker has no intentional direct reply to it, but just as Bruce was telling the Joker about Napier's past, so also the Joker's line about dancing with the devil brings up Bruce's past.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:42 PM   #582
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

And obviously, we have the scene where Napier himself smashes a mirror after his surgery, which could potentially be seen as the counterpoint to Bruce smashing the mirror in the apartment. In this case though it seems to be the literal breaking point between Napier's past and new identity.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:45 PM   #583
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Yep, and that plays very well against the first mirror-scene with Napier, in the more literal sense that his vanity is undergoing a metamorphosis to allow it to survive the ruining of his face.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:54 PM   #584
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

What's all this about Bruce smashing a mirror? He didn't smash any mirror. He smashed a vase.

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Old 07-02-2013, 02:57 PM   #585
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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Of course it'll piss off the fans who can't accept the fact it's their own interpretation. You can never have a 100% "pure" adaption of Batman (or any fictional character) because there's always gonna be changes and there's always changes in the source material.
While I agree, I gotta say BTAS does a pretty good job.

I like there never been a pure adaptation, do we as fans really want to see a story we have already read before? I love seeing changes to the material as long as its true to the mythos or world of the comics. Something that makes sense for the characters.

I can understand the problem with the death of Bruce's parents, and Burton did do some traits and other things very differently. But I don't care, I love the film hehe.

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Old 07-02-2013, 03:26 PM   #586
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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What's all this about Bruce smashing a mirror? He didn't smash any mirror. He smashed a vase.
Yes, you're right, I just checked. There's no mirror in that scene. That's probably why I never noticed it then.

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Old 07-02-2013, 03:45 PM   #587
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:51 PM   #588
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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What's all this about Bruce smashing a mirror? He didn't smash any mirror. He smashed a vase.
We all know what this means: I clearly haven't seen B89 enough times and have an excuse to do so again!

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:09 PM   #589
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Clearly I need to watch it again too because you fooled me.

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Old 07-02-2013, 05:32 PM   #590
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

I think that mirrored tray thing he wore under his clothes is what mixed up my recollection.

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Old 07-03-2013, 01:22 AM   #591
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:30 AM   #592
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

that cape

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Old 07-03-2013, 06:20 AM   #593
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Those ears.

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Old 07-03-2013, 07:31 AM   #594
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

Back to the joker and him killing batman's parents, i don't think that would have ever even been an aspect added had nicholson not been so old when they finally cast him?

I was never a fan of the joker looking like your creepy old uncle. Nicholson was always their first choice to play the joker but i'm pretty sure they envisioned him as this when they thought of him for the role



but by the time they finally cast him he was more like this




I think a Nicholson circa 1979-1980 cast as the joker when he still had a lot of his physicality, would have rivaled what heath did in my estimate.


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Old 07-03-2013, 07:42 AM   #595
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

That gif will forever make me laugh and creep the **** outta me!

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Old 07-03-2013, 12:18 PM   #596
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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Back to the joker and him killing batman's parents, i don't think that would have ever even been an aspect added had nicholson not been so old when they finally cast him?
One of the first draft for a Batman movie, written by Tom Mankiewicz in 1983 or so, had a Joker being involved and witnessing the Waynes's murder. And I'm talking Joker, no Jack Napier.

So, the Joker was supposed to be older way before Batman project was greenlighted.

But the idea of Joker being involved in Batman's origin was not Burton original: it was supposed to be like that way before. And, like many other projects that come from previous attempts, it just inherited their ideas.

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I was never a fan of the joker looking like your creepy old uncle. Nicholson was always their first choice to play the joker but i'm pretty sure they envisioned him as this when they thought of him for the role
I don't get the uncle reference. He has to look clowny and creepy no matter what relationship he has with anyone else.

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I think a Nicholson circa 1979-1980 cast as the joker when he still had a lot of his physicality, would have rivaled what heath did in my estimate.
You also have to consider what a superhero movie could and could not do back in 1989 in terms of how creepy and frightening you could make a villain before having executives afraid of losing money.

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Old 07-03-2013, 03:28 PM   #597
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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Is this a re-anactment of the end to Superman II?

"Sorry I've been away, Mayor, I won't let you down again"

(drives away in Batmobile with a smile and wink to the audience)

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Old 07-03-2013, 03:39 PM   #598
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Old 07-03-2013, 06:42 PM   #599
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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Is this a re-anactment of the end to Superman II?
LOL Exactly what I thought when I saw that photo. It's sort of odd seeing Batman (especially Burton's) holding the American flag.

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Old 07-03-2013, 06:49 PM   #600
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Default Re: The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

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One of the first draft for a Batman movie, written by Tom Mankiewicz in 1983 or so, had a Joker being involved and witnessing the Waynes's murder. And I'm talking Joker, no Jack Napier.

So, the Joker was supposed to be older way before Batman project was greenlighted.

But the idea of Joker being involved in Batman's origin was not Burton original: it was supposed to be like that way before. And, like many other projects that come from previous attempts, it just inherited their ideas.



I don't get the uncle reference. He has to look clowny and creepy no matter what relationship he has with anyone else.



You also have to consider what a superhero movie could and could not do back in 1989 in terms of how creepy and frightening you could make a villain before having executives afraid of losing money.

I'm not sure why the joker witnessing wayne's parents death was ever considered a plot idea for them? It just still seems forced like the only reason batman would hate the joker was due to a personal connection?

And the creepy uncle reference was more so how about his age and appearance as well.

Nicholson was always going to play Nicholson when he was cast i just think the Nicholson we got was a little too long in the tooth (and wide in the gut) to work for the joker.

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