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Old 07-08-2013, 01:05 AM   #426
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Is it true that Loki won't be in Avengers 2??? Personally, if this is true, that is so damn stupid to exclude one of the more favorite characters from the movie.

You can only take Loki's story so far before it becomes intrusive and inexplicable in other peoples' storylines. Loki was the reason the Avengers came together in the first movie, just as he was in the first issue of the comic books (although for mostly different reasons); but it will get increasingly hard to justify him coming back into the Avengers franchise after TDW. Plus, the villain side of the fight card in TA2 might already be overcrowded, so it wouldn't serve Loki or the fans to try to cram him in there, too.

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Old 07-08-2013, 02:06 AM   #427
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Is it true that Loki won't be in Avengers 2??? Personally, if this is true, that is so damn stupid to exclude one of the more favorite characters from the movie.
Meh. He's a villain. He's relevant to Thor and not much else, except that Hiddleston pushes some weird angsty sex buttons in the teenybopper crowd and they go all gooey as a result. He can appear in all the Thor movies you want but as far as Avengers is concerned he's done.

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Old 07-08-2013, 02:09 AM   #428
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Meh. He's a villain. He's relevant to Thor and not much else, except that Hiddleston pushes some weird angsty sex buttons in the teenybopper crowd and they go all gooey as a result. He can appear in all the Thor movies you want but as far as Avengers is concerned he's done.
Maybe this is a virtue of the AVENGERS film pedigree, but far too many fans, new and old, are looking at Loki as a character that is going to go the "Spike" route, as it were.

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Old 07-08-2013, 02:25 AM   #429
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Maybe this is a virtue of the AVENGERS film pedigree, but far too many fans, new and old, are looking at Loki as a character that is going to go the "Spike" route, as it were.
Now that you mention it he does seem to be edging more towards anti-hero than villain, doesn't he?

Not that it makes him a crucial Avengers staple however.

edit: No, anti-hero isn't the right term.

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Old 07-08-2013, 02:32 AM   #430
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

What ever the term, a lot of fans see the Tom H. Loki as very sympathetic for whatever reason. I am inclined somewhat to agree, but that never really papered over all the things Tom's Loki did. The whole scene in Thor where he tell's Thor Odin is dead and that his mother no longer wanted to see him was what made me ultimately write off Loki as an A-1 slimeball.

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Old 07-08-2013, 02:42 AM   #431
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

Yeah and gouging that one guy's eyeball out of his skull in front of a crowd of innocent bystanders was kind of a dick move too.

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Old 07-08-2013, 02:47 AM   #432
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Yeah and gouging that one guy's eyeball out of his skull in front of a crowd of innocent bystanders was kind of a dick move too.
Yeah, little things like that make it very hard for me to come down on the "he had a hard time growing up, give him a chance" side of the fence.

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:10 AM   #433
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

hey he is adopted! lol Daddy didn't love him

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:13 AM   #434
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

I honestly would have never thought that an actor could play Marvel Loki, of all things, and make the audience so invested in the character that people are all "what possible excuses/contrivances can we come up with to justify this cat sticking around for the whole series."

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:25 AM   #435
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

Loki isn't really relevant to the Avengers anymore. I don't care what fanboys or fangirls say. Let the Avengers face other villains. Keep him around in the Thor franchise (he was the best thing about the Thor movie), but bringing him back in Avengers 2 would be too repetitive.

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:28 AM   #436
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

One of the few reasons I can see them bringing him back in a future Avengers movie would be for a cameo scene where they get info from him on Thanos, or hell-- even a scene where Thanos actually kills him.

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:32 AM   #437
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

Here here. I second the motion! I liked Tom as Loki a whole lot. But the next part of the story doesn't need Loki, unless they want to do something drastic, with consequences, and have Loki killed by Thanos. This would at least follow up on "The Other's" threat in A1 and give a damned good reason for Thor to return to Earth to confront Thanos.


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Old 07-08-2013, 04:10 AM   #438
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Once Dr. Strange starts dropping some Vapors of Valthorr in Phase III and starts fighting off hordes of demons and dark spirits, all bets are off. Ain't gonna be a lot of "science by any other name" wankery going on there. Thor and TDW are the movies that will ease audiences into the spellcasting side of things.
It's still going to be science... that's just something you're going to deal with... and it's not even a big deal in the first place. It doesn't matter how weird and high fantasy the magic gets in the MCU, it has already been established that magic and science are "ONE AND THE SAME THING." Dr. Strange isn't suddenly going to change that just because the magic gets stranger (pun intended).

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Old 07-08-2013, 04:17 AM   #439
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Yeah and gouging that one guy's eyeball out of his skull in front of a crowd of innocent bystanders was kind of a dick move too.
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Yeah, little things like that make it very hard for me to come down on the "he had a hard time growing up, give him a chance" side of the fence.
Loki was a sympathetic character in Thor, but all of that ended in The Avengers, as far as I am concerned. He killed or caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people with his bloody scheme that boiled down to destroying the Earth simply because Thor loves it. Loki made numerous attempts on Thor's life, succeeded in killing him once and will do it again if his brother stupidly gives him another chance, which he undoubtedly will. He's just a vicious piece of work for whom redemption, if it's even possible, will probably come at the point of a sword.


Death would be a good career move for Loki at this point. He can come back later, crying hypocritical tears for his own downfall while plotting once again to destroy others.

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Old 07-08-2013, 04:18 AM   #440
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

^Other than giving us all something to argue about... Why does this "science vs. magic" argument really come down to? The "science" in these films is no more grounded or real than the "magic".

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Old 07-08-2013, 04:21 AM   #441
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Loki was a sympathetic character in Thor, but all of that ended in The Avengers, as far as I am concerned. He killed or caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people with his bloody scheme that boiled down to destroying the Earth simply because Thor loves it. Loki made numerous attempts on Thor's life, succeeded in killing him once and will do it again if his brother stupidly gives him another chance, which he undoubtedly will. He's just a vicious piece of work for whom redemption, if it's even possible, will probably come at the point of a sword.


Death would be a good career move for Loki at this point. He can come back later, crying hypocritical tears for his own downfall while plotting once again to destroy others.

See, I found there to be enough characterization on the writers and Tom's part to make me understand where he was coming from, but Loki was still shown to be the one behind the deaths of the Asgardians in Odin's Weapon's Vault. That showed that his destiny had been on the course he is now charting for some time. To me, anyway.

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Old 07-08-2013, 06:49 AM   #442
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

I say leave Loki in the Thor movies. There are so MANY other Avengers villains to cover to keep bringing back Loki.

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Old 07-08-2013, 07:05 AM   #443
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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I say leave Loki in the Thor movies. There are so MANY other Avengers villains to cover to keep bringing back Loki.
He's one of my favorite villains, but I agree with you here.

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Old 07-08-2013, 10:48 AM   #444
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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^Other than giving us all something to argue about... Why does this "science vs. magic" argument really come down to? The "science" in these films is no more grounded or real than the "magic".
It's just a definition. Some people want the MCU to be completely grounded in "sci-fi" science with hard rules, and "anything goes" magic is hard for them to grasp. "True" magic gives writers the ultimate deus ex: they can make literally *anything* happen, and when fanboys demand an explanation, the fallback response is, "Hey, it's magic."

But in the comic-book Marvel universe (as well as most others, DC included), magic and sci-fi coexist with nary a fan batting an eyelash about it. Gods, sorcerers, demons and undead exist in the same universe as aliens and starships and time travelers.

There's no reason at all to expect the MCU to be any different in that regard than the comic-book counterpart. Dr. Strange's spells and summonings aren't going to be explained away as advanced technology or quantum physics....it's magic, pure and simple.

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Old 07-08-2013, 12:13 PM   #445
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I've always thought that 'magic' was a concept that can only exist in fiction and yet paradoxically can't in a well constructed story. If there was a force or series of forces that could operate without limit or boundary then it would violate the laws of storytelling that say you need to set limits and not contradict yourself when it comes to your character's capabilities. So once you're done imposing your laws and whatnot you've essentially stripped the magical aspects away from your magic.

I've never seen the point of arguing the semantics. Science or magic? It's pretty irrelevant.

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Old 07-08-2013, 12:15 PM   #446
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then why bother having Peter bitten by a spider?
One, Marvel Studios doesn't have any say in what Sony does.

Two, because clearly the "brain slot" can be triggered by various outside events. The Extremis nanite is one of them; presumably the genetic begoobery behind the transgenic spiders is another method of triggering it, with a different kind of effect.

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Old 07-08-2013, 12:30 PM   #447
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I honestly don't expect to see more from Malekith after TDW, but we'll see. Malekith seems like a very disposable villain. But I think he's going to set events in motion that will reverberate throughout the Nine Realms. Malekith serves a greater power (the dark and ancient evil they keep talking about in the official press releases for TDW), and *that* power is the one that's going to drive the story in TA2.

Thanos is still the odds-on favorite, I'm sure. But there could be powers even greater than him at work here. I'm thinking that we're on the verge of some sort of black magic (re)awakening, and it's possible that Joss intends Scarlet Witch to have something to do with that. (i.e., have her be an actual Scarlet Witch, and have her powers be explained as chaos magic instead of a mutant gene. Then she could have some kind of link/knowledge of the darker power Malekith serves. This could also feed into the Dr. Strange movie coming in Phase III.)
One thing to consider is that, if Avengers 2 is the Masters of Evil, it probably should have *some* kind of Thor villain on it. This means that, if not Malekith, seems likely that *someone* will appear in Thor 2 that could serve that role.

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Old 07-08-2013, 12:38 PM   #448
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

At this point, I gotta think MoE is not a part of A2. I hope not, anyway. Nothing points to it aside from fan speculation.

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Old 07-08-2013, 12:50 PM   #449
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^Other than giving us all something to argue about... Why does this "science vs. magic" argument really come down to? The "science" in these films is no more grounded or real than the "magic".
Mostly it comes down to people misunderstanding what 'science' is. They assume it must be some kind of "tools vs spellcasting" dichotomy, when it isn't. Science is simply the rigorous attempt to understand and describe the universe around you; magic isn't its opposite, its just something we don't yet understand.

Now, there is an opposite of science, and that's *superstition*. However, superstition is not magic, and magic is only superstition when it doesn't actually work. Magic, as it exists in nearly every story, is something that either could be subject to the scientific method, or actually already is subject to such ( what do you think a classical wizard is doing when he's experimenting? ).

As for how magic will be in the MCU? I suspect that it will have a "scientific" justification, in the broad and vague sense. It has rules, and causes, and methodologies. Some of its bases have probably been touched upon by contemporary science even, like the "brain slot" and the studies of Tesseract energy. Its just that this won't actually be particularly important to, say, Dr Strange, and he's not going to spend a whole lot of time trying to use the observed properties of spellcasting to achieve unification between quantum mechanics and relativity. He's going to be fighting other magic-using entities from other dimensions.

( The Asgardians probably *do* properly understand the science of "magic", though to them "magic" is probably not a singular force so much as a couple different things commonly mixed up by less advanced societies. )


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Old 07-08-2013, 12:52 PM   #450
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At this point, I gotta think MoE is not a part of A2. I hope not, anyway. Nothing points to it aside from fan speculation.
Yeah, I'm not convinced with the Masters of Evil either. It doesn't seem like the correct environment has been created for a bunch of super villains to decide to team up before the inevitable betrayal. I'm still leaning towards Thanos myself.

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