The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 147

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Basara....Basara....

lol, I still remember the posts about it being Basa vs Basara. I thought it was Basa initially, I'm man enough to admit that.

[kvz5]

It took me a while to get fish fish pasta out of my head after someone suggested it.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

lol, I still remember the posts about it being Basa vs Basara. I thought it was Basa initially, I'm man enough to admit that.

Haha oh man, that's nothing compared to how many people were convinced it was "Bane Bane Matalo Matalo" . Good times.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by kvz5

It took me a while to get fish fish pasta out of my head after someone suggested it.

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Haha oh man, that's nothing compared to how many people were convinced it was "Bane Bane Matalo Matalo" . Good times.

Wow. Those were both good times, lol.

[regwec]

I don't think Blake's response to the Bat-swarm is even supposed to evoke such an emotional response from the audience as Bruce's did. Bruce Wayne/Batman is the legend, the passage of which should evoke a degree of regret. If we were invited to feel that attachment to Blake/Robin/Nightwing/Batman-Lite, we could fairly feel aggrieved that Bruce wasn't being afforded much respect.

I'm unsurprised to see claims of "tears" or "goosebumps" from those who can be relied upon to defend everything about TDKR, but I think, in this instance, that they might be missing the point.

[BatLobsterRises]

You're right, it's not supposed to invite the same emotional response at all. In BB, it was the centerpiece of one long sequence, in TDKR it's a smaller bit in a larger montage involving multiple characters. Any emotional response to it (at least on my part) involves the placement of that scene in relation to the other scenes in the montage, along with the swell of the music in that moment, etc. It certainly didn't take me out of the moment or anger me the way it did for some- there had already been plenty of visual callbacks to the previous films in TDKR here was one final (and poignant) one. It's a bittersweet moment- seeing a new face down in the cave, knowing Bruce won't be down there again, knowing that the story is ending. But there's still happiness and triumph in knowing that Bruce's legacy can be carried forward through future generations, and there's something mystical about the bats greeting each new inhabitant the same way, as if it's some sort of rite of passage.

[shauner111]

The goosebumps is not just the music, the callbacks, the mirroring, or even seeing Bruce still alive (ALL of that plays into it too) but it's about a few other things for me too. 1 of those things is something that a lot of people share with me that I speak to. In that the ending and the way it's setup and all comes together is exactly what I had hoped AND much more. This is the ending of the trilogy I hoped I would get. Something completely satisfying. A lot of people had a split reaction about the ending of LOST but I was emotionally spent with that ending as well, and thought it was perfection. It's not a spoiler to say that they ended everything about the PEOPLE and not the mythological elements of the island.

The other part is my personal experience with Robin. I never truly cared for Dick Grayson or any other version of Robin my entire life. Ive liked certain takes but I don't reaaaally care about it. Ive always took the Christian Bale stance with not wanting the character to come near this trilogy. But he was also a huge part of my childhood whether I liked it or not. Nolan actually gave me his version of Robin and it felt like a Tim Drake + Dick Grayson mix. Nolan made me really enjoy Robin for the first time, probably because he was the embodiment of what a Robin is without throwing a cape, red tights on a teenage boy. Plus JGL is one of my favorite actors in recent years.

So when he's entering the cave, im getting emotional because the themes are all coming together, it's the ending I wanted regardless of what others wanted for this movie. I NEVER wanted Batman to be standing on top of skyscraper for the ending, because that's not an ending. And I realized right when the bomb exploded that I didn't want Bruce/Bats to die. So when I not only see Bruce alive and happy and away from the pain of Gotham.....and I see Robin (a character that's been a part of my childhood who im now seeing in a better light) getting hit in the face by bats in the same way Bruce did, but reacting like the boy wonder? THAT made me emotional.

It was a weird emotional reaction I had each time in the cinema. I still get it on blu ray when I see it. It's not only a personal thing, but I truly feel everything came full circle. Wrapped in a bow. People from Gary Oldman to Christian Bale to Christopher Nolan have said the same things. And I trusted their word because ill trust them over people (no offense) who sit behind a computer nitpicking superhero movies on a messageboard. I trusted them and I was rewarded. They were right. Of course they were. They made this stuff and they put their passion into it even if others go against it.

[regwec]

Originally Posted by shauner111

I trusted their word because ill trust them over people (no offense) who sit behind a computer nitpicking superhero movies on a messageboard. I trusted them and I was rewarded. They were right. Of course they were. They made this stuff and they put their passion into it even if others go against it.

What a strange thing to say. I'm afraid I am not in tune with people who use dramatic phrases like "trust" and "reward" when discussing these movies. Would your experience of them be different if you had restrained this "trust"? And what form did it take? I'm not sure that us...nitpickers are generally looking for anyone's "trust". Speaking personally, I just enjoy discussing Batman stuff.

Anywho, I'm not aiming to cheapen your emotional response to the Robin/Batswarm scene; I merely suspect that it might be a bit more extreme that anything the director had really envisioned.

[BatLobsterRises]

Shauner, honestly you've pretty much summed up my overall reaction to a T there including my views on the ending both before and after seeing the movie. I knew I didn't want to see a "Batman on a rooftop" ending, and I was really paranoid that the shot on the bridge from the trailers was the last shot. Beyond that it was tricky because I also didn't want Bruce to die, and I (foolishly in hindsight) refused to believe Blake would be an important enough character to warrant being passed the mantle. TDKR ended up giving me what I wanted, but didn't realize I wanted.

[Green Goblin]

Blakes way was more like discovering a legacy, Bruce was finding his destiny. They are two different characters. I thought the ending to TDKR was satisfying but the TDK's was perfect. I would have been happy for the series to end there.

[regwec]

With retrospect, I agree with you. BB/TDK as a two-parter, to me, feels much stronger than the trilogy as a whole.

[The Joker]

Seconded. To me Rises spits all over the journey they were sending Batman on.

[shauner111]

It rewards that journey.

[BatLobsterRises]

Third acts tend to be about reversals, whether it be within the context of an individual movie, or the third part of a trilogy.

[Victarion]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Seconded. To me Rises spits all over the journey they were sending Batman on.

Where did you see Batman's journey heading after TDK?

[The Shape]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

You're right, it's not supposed to invite the same emotional response at all. In BB, it was the centerpiece of one long sequence, in TDKR it's a smaller bit in a larger montage involving multiple characters. Any emotional response to it (at least on my part) involves the placement of that scene in relation to the other scenes in the montage, along with the swell of the music in that moment, etc. It certainly didn't take me out of the moment or anger me the way it did for some- there had already been plenty of visual callbacks to the previous films in TDKR here was one final (and poignant) one. It's a bittersweet moment- seeing a new face down in the cave, knowing Bruce won't be down there again, knowing that the story is ending. But there's still happiness and triumph in knowing that Bruce's legacy can be carried forward through future generations, and there's something mystical about the bats greeting each new inhabitant the same way, as if it's some sort of rite of passage.

Well said.

Gotta say, you impress me. Each time someone makes a throw-away comment about "those who can be relied upon to defend everything about TDKR" or something alone those lines, you come back with an explanation for your opinion that is both perfectly logical and valid. If only Anno took a lesson from you...

Anyone else as fascinated by this TDKR thread as I am? Hard to believe there are new posts in it every day after a year of the film being released. And you've all gotta admit that it's pretty funny how this thread is essentially a very polite 3 on 3 battle of opinions. There's a couple of guys who've made their distaste for TDKR quite evident, so they're always agreeing and high-fiving each other via posts. "Yeah, man, you're right! TDKR spits all over everything the first 2 films did!" Then there's the few people who are more than happy with how TDKR turned out and do the exact same thing. "Totally agreed. TDKR honors the first two so much." And then the conversations move on and cycle through the same subjects that have been discussed for over a year (it is only a 2.5 hour movie after all). The same people agree, the same people disagree, over and over. Nothing is accomplished. Nothing changes. It's like the Twilight Zone.

Not intending to insult anyone whatsoever, especially since I've participated as well. I just think it's pretty funny when you look at this thread from that perspective, and if we can't laugh at ourselves, who can we laugh at?

[Green Goblin]

I would have liked an entery inbetween TDK and TDKR. For me Batman giving up the crowl for 8 years after only one year as batman is unrealistic. While I know this is Nolan's version I don't think the CB Batman would do that. I find TDK Returns superior to TDKR.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

Where did you see Batman's journey heading after TDK?

Not an 8 year retirement the night after Dent died. I saw Batman doing what they bent over backwards to say, that he could be hunted, and take it. That he could endure. That he'd still be out there fighting crime while Dent's legacy built up momentum over months/years and not the very night after he popped his clogs.

How can Batman be enduring anything when he's not Batman any more?

[Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by theShape

Well said.

Gotta say, you impress me. Each time someone makes a throw-away comment about "those who can be relied upon to defend everything about TDKR" or something alone those lines, you come back with an explanation for your opinion that is both perfectly logical and valid. If only Anno took a lesson from you...

Anyone else as fascinated by this TDKR thread as I am? Hard to believe there are new posts in it every day after a year of the film being released. And you've all gotta admit that it's pretty funny how this thread is essentially a very polite 3 on 3 battle of opinions. There's a couple of guys who've made their distaste for TDKR quite evident, so they're always agreeing and high-fiving each other via posts. "Yeah, man, you're right! TDKR spits all over everything the first 2 films did!" Then there's the few people who are more than happy with how TDKR turned out and do the exact same thing. "Totally agreed. TDKR honors the first two so much." And then the conversations move on and cycle through the same subjects that have been discussed for over a year (it is only a 2.5 hour movie after all). The same people agree, the same people disagree, over and over. Nothing is accomplished. Nothing changes. It's like the Twilight Zone.

Not intending to insult anyone whatsoever, especially since I've participated as well. I just think it's pretty funny when you look at this thread from that perspective, and if we can't laugh at ourselves, who can we laugh at?

Well said, It's not that I don't like TDKR, I like it but I felt it was a level below BB and a mile away from TDK.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by theShape

Well said.

Gotta say, you impress me. Each time someone makes a throw-away comment about "those who can be relied upon to defend everything about TDKR" or something alone those lines, you come back with an explanation for your opinion that is both perfectly logical and valid. If only Anno took a lesson from you...

Anyone else as fascinated by this TDKR thread as I am? Hard to believe there are new posts in it every day after a year of the film being released. And you've all gotta admit that it's pretty funny how this thread is essentially a very polite 3 on 3 battle of opinions. There's a couple of guys who've made their distaste for TDKR quite evident, so they're always agreeing and high-fiving each other via posts. "Yeah, man, you're right! TDKR spits all over everything the first 2 films did!" Then there's the few people who are more than happy with how TDKR turned out and do the exact same thing. "Totally agreed. TDKR honors the first two so much." And then the conversations move on and cycle through the same subjects that have been discussed for over a year (it is only a 2.5 hour movie after all). The same people agree, the same people disagree, over and over. Nothing is accomplished. Nothing changes. It's like the Twilight Zone.

Not intending to insult anyone whatsoever, especially since I've participated as well. I just think it's pretty funny when you look at this thread from that perspective, and if we can't laugh at ourselves, who can we laugh at?

Haha, first of all thank you. Second of all everything you've said is so true and I'm amazed myself that he we are one year after the film's release, on page 2 of a brand new general discussion thread. But nothing seems to change. Round and round we go. It is pretty funny when you think about it, but neither side of the argument seems to want to stop posting in this section, so here we are. Batman fans are notoriously stubborn and opinionated, and I'm no exception.

If I may though, regwec recently said something to the effect of "I only criticize the Nolan films because at least they are worth criticizing". And from my end, I only respond to certain criticisms because I think they are worth addressing and discussing. I'm not about trying to show that I'm "objectively" right, I just want to express why I might see a given thing differently and have a positive reaction to it rather than negative. Even if I don't change anyone's mind I hope to at least give them a better idea of why I might like something they don't. A higher level of discourse is what I ultimately crave.

[shauner111]

BtaLobster, great minds think alike! lol. Yeah I never wanted to see Batman on top of that bridge as the ending. That's the same as Batman 89 or Batman Begins even. That's no ending.

Originally Posted by RedBlueWonder

I would have liked an entery inbetween TDK and TDKR. For me Batman giving up the crowl for 8 years after only one year as batman is unrealistic. While I know this is Nolan's version I don't think the CB Batman would do that. I find TDK Returns superior to TDKR.

In between? Me too. But it's pretty simple. It's NOT the comic book Batman, so that's irrelevant. What's unrealistic is a batman that is active non-stop forever. Or for a decade straight. Even 5 years is a lot if you consider all the injuries he must have night in and night out. Boxer's don't last long and even they have 1 or 2 fights a year? A year or two, or even 3 of being Batman every night would equal like a decade. That was the point of Nolan's interpretation.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Not an 8 year retirement the night after Dent died. I saw Batman doing what they bent over backwards to say, that he could be hunted, and take it. That he could endure. That he'd still be out there fighting crime while Dent's legacy built up momentum over months/years and not the very night after he popped his clogs.

How can Batman be enduring anything when he's not Batman any more?

Batman did endure. Just because you took it as he was physically going to endure it doesn't mean what happened is less truthful. He endured the heat, the blame, taking the fall. He sacrificed himself to be the villain. While Gotham rested easy for 8 years, Bruce couldn't move on, he was Batman inside himself without a way of letting out his anger. The point in these movies were that batman was actually a symbol and not a man. That was established in Begins. So the man doesn't have to be physically out there in order to endure. The symbol took the blame, the symbol endured. Because Batman is not a man, it's a concept, an ideal.

The problem lies with people thinking this is exactly like the comics or Batman is the man Bruce Wayne. So he should endure for longer, he shouldn't retire or pass the mantle to another man. But that's not what this trilogy is about. Begins spelled it out for us and they followed through in the ending. Batman is NOT a man, it's a symbol.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by shauner111

Batman did endure. Just because you took it as he was physically going to endure it doesn't mean what happened is less truthful. He endured the heat, the blame, taking the fall. He sacrificed himself to be the villain. While Gotham rested easy for 8 years, Bruce couldn't move on, he was Batman inside himself without a way of letting out his anger. The point in these movies were that batman was actually a symbol and not a man. That was established in Begins. So the man doesn't have to be physically out there in order to endure. The symbol took the blame, the symbol endured. Because Batman is not a man, it's a concept, an ideal.

Baloney. That is not enduring. Enduring is actually being Batman and enduring all of this heat, hatred, and being chased and hunted. Like how in TDK in the scene in the bunker where's packing away his Batman costume and burning files that linked Batman to Rachel and Fox, when he was going to quit over Joker's mass murder spree over him, Alfred told him to endure and take it, even though everyone will hate him for it.

That's endurance. If he quit then he wouldn't be enduring which is why Alfred was urging him to continue. The only reason he wasn't Batman any more in TDKR is because he wasn't needed. Gotham got magically cleaned up thanks to Dent's legacy as soon as he died.

Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"

No endurance necessary when you're not being Batman any more.

[Shikamaru]

He endures boredom for 8 years.

[BatLobsterRises]

Hasn't everyone in their life had to emotionally endure something? The definition of the word isn't limited to physical acts. And neither is Batman when he's meant to be a symbol.

[regwec]

Originally Posted by theShape

Well said.

Gotta say, you impress me. Each time someone makes a throw-away comment about "those who can be relied upon to defend everything about TDKR" or something alone those lines, you come back with an explanation for your opinion that is both perfectly logical and valid. If only Anno took a lesson from you...

Anyone else as fascinated by this TDKR thread as I am? Hard to believe there are new posts in it every day after a year of the film being released. And you've all gotta admit that it's pretty funny how this thread is essentially a very polite 3 on 3 battle of opinions. There's a couple of guys who've made their distaste for TDKR quite evident, so they're always agreeing and high-fiving each other via posts. "Yeah, man, you're right! TDKR spits all over everything the first 2 films did!" Then there's the few people who are more than happy with how TDKR turned out and do the exact same thing. "Totally agreed. TDKR honors the first two so much." And then the conversations move on and cycle through the same subjects that have been discussed for over a year (it is only a 2.5 hour movie after all). The same people agree, the same people disagree, over and over. Nothing is accomplished. Nothing changes. It's like the Twilight Zone.

Not intending to insult anyone whatsoever, especially since I've participated as well. I just think it's pretty funny when you look at this thread from that perspective, and if we can't laugh at ourselves, who can we laugh at?

I was thinking the same thing earlier. There is no heat in this discussion, it is like playing a gentle game of cricket with friends on a summer's afternoon.

It's a pity more threads aren't equally civil.

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

If I may though, regwec recently said something to the effect of "I only criticize the Nolan films because at least they are worth criticizing".

Yes, and I would repeat that. I don't love everything about these films, but they are proper films, made with a degree of care and artistry. Ten minutes of BB is worth more to me than the entire output of Marvel Studios.