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#51 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 16,037
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That's TDK. Different movie, different circumstances. He physically endured in TDK but the end of TDKR was him fully understanding what Ras meant. The end of the trilogy, the end of his journey could only happen when he actually learnt that Batman has to become more than just a man, a concept, a legend that can be immortal , like the League of Shadows going from generation to generation of Al Ghul's. It's the reason why this bit of dialogue was chosen to be in the first teaser for TDKR. It's what this entire trilogy has been about from the get-go and it was fulfilled right down to the tee. You and the others who are sticking your fingers in your ears screaming LA LA LA!! are doing that because you are so stuck on the notion that it must mirror the comics down to a tee, where Bruce (the man) physically stays out there for ever. And like BatLobster says, endurance isn't limited to the physical.
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"Lets make one thing very clear here - Nolan's films are as faithful an adaptation as there is. It pays homage to its source material, remains true to its characters and above all else places the story first and foremost." - jmc |
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#52 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 7,671
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The thing is that most people are too tired of discussing the film at this point. Just a year ago, this place was packed. Now there are only a couple of people going around in circles. Occasionally someone new joins in to offer their two cents and then leaves but for the most part, that's what it is. What exactly do you mean by emotional endurance? Obviously I know what it means but how is Bruce going through emotional endurance? |
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#53 | |
2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 19,337
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I love how we are the wrong ones for having a "comic-book mindset." What a horrible bias for comic-book movie fans to have. You know, shauner, I never assert that you are a blind Nolan fanboy - that would be insulting, beside the point, and a fallacious attempt to undermine your credibility. I wish you wouldn't use such tactics on us.
In TDKR we get no indication that his symbol endured, in fact quite the opposite - it is established early in the film that Gotham thinks Batman is a murderer, his reputation is tarnished, etc. The symbol only endures in the mind of Gordon and a few older cops (and the orphans). Everyone else is hungry to take Batman down. The symbol didn't endure because Batman just hung up the cowl and gave up on the symbol, rather than continuing the fight.
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#54 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 16,037
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Im not saying it to get under anybodys skin but I feel it's true. People on here naturally have this mindset that when something comes up in a film that slightly resembles the comics, then it must mean that it's going to follow through 100 percent on it like the comics would. But it's film and it doesn't have to, the writers can cherry pick what they want and alter things.
Endurance doesn't have to mean physical endurance. You can emotionally endure something. It was set up from the beginning of this trilogy that Batman would be a symbol and not a man. It would carry on and become immortal once Bruce Wayne is done with it.
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"Lets make one thing very clear here - Nolan's films are as faithful an adaptation as there is. It pays homage to its source material, remains true to its characters and above all else places the story first and foremost." - jmc |
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#55 | ||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,889
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It's nothing to do with a comic mind set (though imagine having one while watching a COMIC BOOK movie. So shocking). It's to do with rational logic. Quitters are not enduring.
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This has nothing to do with being some fancy immortal symbol. We're talking about Batman, as a person, enduring not the symbol of Batman. They were not talking about a symbol enduring in TDK. They were talking about Batman being able to take the hate (shown by them smashing the batsignal), them chasing him (shown by him actually being chased by the Cops at the end). Quote:
Pay attention to my actual words please. Don't mis quote me.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 07-16-2013 at 12:45 PM. |
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#56 |
Make Mine Marble
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 28,492
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Hah! That's my post of the month.
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"Myth and high culture have much in common. Each is concerned to idealise the human condition, to lift it free from contingencies". - Sir Roger Scruton Love Freedom? PENCE 2018 |
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#57 | |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,469
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In other ways though, I do think there is some unhealthy emotional enduring going on. He is enduring in his belief that Rachel was his only chance for a happy life. He is enduring in his belief that a lie was the best thing for Gotham. It's all a part of him being frozen. |
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#58 |
Iron Captain
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,513
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Yes. A bad freshman year and an uphill struggle to get my GPA to where it needed to be for medical school. Seeing everyone else move on made me want to give up. It is what made Bruce's struggle to escape the Pit and overcome Bane resonate deeply.
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Goku Lands on Namek CEO ...no king but the King in the North whose name is BRADY... |
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#59 | |
In the shadows
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Your mind.
Posts: 18,511
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TDKR is a complete continuation of TDK, and BB before it. Despite a "fall from grace" (typical superhero trope) after the events of TDK, Bruce's mission as Batman should still be considered a triumph, especially after what he did for the city at the end of TDKR. At the end of TDK, it's stated that Batman is "the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now." But by TDKR's end, it's clear that Batman filled both of those roles. He came back. He was needed, and he did all that he could to protect his city. He DID endure, and despite Bruce seemingly moving on from it all, the ending of TDKR suggests that the Batman symbol will endure, too.
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I'll be there... around every corner, in every empty room, as inevitable as your guilty conscience... |
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#60 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 16,037
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"Lets make one thing very clear here - Nolan's films are as faithful an adaptation as there is. It pays homage to its source material, remains true to its characters and above all else places the story first and foremost." - jmc |
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#61 | |
2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 19,337
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I know the signal endured at the end of TDKR. We're discussing, though, the way the end of TDK connects with the beginning of TDKR. Which means Bruce gave up on creating an enduring signal for 8 years.
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#62 |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,469
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He gave up on the original purpose of his symbol the moment he decided to take the blame at the end of TDK. That is part of the tragedy of TDK (and it is a tragedy).
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#63 |
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 23,527
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I don't understand people with a "screw the comics" mentality. Most, if not every aspect of these films are, in some way or another, inspired by the comics. Saying "Screw the comics" is just a cheap argument designed to undermine comic fans, and it only justifies the hatred people have for Nolanites, as most people who use this argument are or come off as complete snobs/wanna be film critics. You'd think they'd be better off writing 50 page critical analysis' on Felini instead of...hanging out on a comic book film board...where most people watch these films...because they like the comics.
I wonder what would happen on a LOTR/Potter fansite if I walked in and said "Screw the books".
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"There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked." |
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#64 |
#feminsim
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Your Mom's House
Posts: 22,187
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But dude, these movies aren't the comics, mannnnnn.
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#65 |
In the shadows
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Your mind.
Posts: 18,511
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You'll never know until you try.
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I'll be there... around every corner, in every empty room, as inevitable as your guilty conscience... |
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#66 |
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 23,527
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"There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked." |
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#67 |
Belongs To Prince
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 8,623
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If one truly loves Batman they'll see that the comics are very important but a different beast on their own.
See, I love how Nolan & Co. used character traits, themes, motifs, and nods to panels over many different instead of aping something from a specific comic/year, that wouldn't translate anyways. They way he re-imagined the Gordon/Bats/Dent rooftop scene (TLH), let Joker have multiple pasts (Klling Joke), Bruce's overseas journey (LOTDK), Bruce/Lucius tech conversations (late 90's Batman) are all more respectful and the better option. There's so many more little things here and there but it's easier to just go to; Begins (http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...es-part-v.html) TDK (http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...s-part-vi.html) TDKRises (http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...vies-part.html) Not leaving Bruce in a lifelong war against crime, Rachel Dawes, Crane being used by Ra's, Bane's look, and Blake... to name a few changes and comic departures are all outweighed by their above respect for the comics and were great additions and ideas that serviced their world. This might not have been the most in-line comic book adaption of Batman but it is the best because of everything, comic or not. BTAS was the same, so many departures but one of the greatest overall Batman things ever. There are many different Batman stories, arcs, issues, shows, movies, games, etc. Why would you want them all the same? As long as they are traditional to what I love and know/understand of Batman then who can be mad? Hell, if anything... most of us are wrong with who Batman is. Isn't he suppose to have purple gloves, drive a red sedan, use guns, and have an apostrophe in his name? We actually should hate on anything post ~1946 because none of that is ever regarded, LOL.
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...electric word, life - it means forever. Last edited by antsman41; 07-16-2013 at 02:05 PM. |
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#68 |
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 23,527
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....When did anyone say they wanted the same exact thing from Batman, and when did anyone say that they wanted the exact thing from the comics?
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"There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked." |
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#69 | |
Deadpool forever!?!
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Off the grid
Posts: 8,275
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Looks like this Batman paid more respect to the comics than any before, so many references and connections. Great stuff ![]()
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2018 MOST WANTED: Black Panther 8.5/10 PR:Uprising 4.5/10 Ready P1 8/10 "Dont be what they made you"
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#70 | |
Make Mine Marble
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Perfidious Albion
Posts: 28,492
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In comic book movie terms, saying "screw the comics" is the same as saying "screw it". In any case, Goyer and the Nolan brothers deserve more credit than ascribing that outlook to them.
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"Myth and high culture have much in common. Each is concerned to idealise the human condition, to lift it free from contingencies". - Sir Roger Scruton Love Freedom? PENCE 2018 |
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#71 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 16,037
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I didn't grow up on comics, I grew up on film. I grew up on a few characters like Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, some members of the Justice League and even X-Men. But I didn't buy a comic until I hit my 20s. I didn't sign up on this forum because I love and adore the comics and want movies to honor everything that's in them. Im on the hype to talk about the films I enjoyed. Ill take Felini or any other great director over 90 percent of comic book movies and the type of directors who handle them. I would certainly rather talk about them. But im talking about Nolan's trilogy because that's what is relevant. The comics are relevant sure, they take inspiration from them, but in the grand scheme of things it's just really not much. It's just about telling a good story for film. Putting out a good movie. Even if it goes against the comics half of the time. And im no comic hater. I love plenty of Batman graphic novels. And Nolan and Goyer drew a lot from my favorite ones. But again, they've been twisted so much by them that the importance is just about telling a good story. Not necessarily honoring any single interpretation. But it's the truth. These movies aren't made with fans in mind. They'll be there anyway. The rest of the world is what the studios and filmmakers have in mind.
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"Lets make one thing very clear here - Nolan's films are as faithful an adaptation as there is. It pays homage to its source material, remains true to its characters and above all else places the story first and foremost." - jmc Last edited by shauner111; 07-16-2013 at 02:33 PM. |
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#72 | |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 48,889
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http://www.christophernolan.net/batman_quotes.php Yeah it sure sounds like they felt they were irrelevant for the most part ![]()
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#73 | |
2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 19,337
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What's the difference between saying "screw the comics" and "the comics are irrelevant?" One phrase uses the word "screw" and the other doesn't?
Your continual point, shauner, is that the target audience is the GA and not comic book readers. That doesn't make the comic books irrelevant though, because that is to drive a false dichotomy between what comic book fans want and what the GA wants. What you are arguing is some sort of "argument from majority" to say that your tastes have exclusive dominance in the market whereas comic book fans' tastes are in the minority - but that's an unproven premise, for the reason stated above. Its NOT true that "these movies aren't made with fans in mind." They are absolutely made with fans in mind. Jonathan Nolan and David Goyer are huge fans of the comics. And again, having fans in mind is not contradictory to having the rest of the world in mind. Your signature alone disparages the comics by asserting that Nolan's interpretation of Batman is both different from the comics and superior. In other words, "screw the comics."
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#74 | |
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 23,527
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The team met with DC Comics. David Goyer was hired specficially because he knew about the comics. How are they irrelevant? And As Phantasm points out, how is saying "The comics are mostly irrelevant" different from "Screw the comics"? These films aren't made with the fans in mind? Then why would WB, or anyone else for that matter, go to Comic Con then, year after year, to show off trailers and have Q & A's?
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"There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us... you blinked." Last edited by The Batman; 07-16-2013 at 02:45 PM. |
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#75 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: May 2010
Location: P
Posts: 1,813
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Kubrick all his life adapted someone's else work. Rarely he gave a damn about being faithful to the material. I would say , outside of Nabokov Lolita , he always elevated the original work. It's not like we're talking high literature or anything. Also , i liked the being snob and writing a 50 page critical analysis on Fellini. ![]() |
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