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Old 07-21-2013, 06:19 PM   #576
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:20 PM   #577
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Something else I hate I show Batman blames Superman for the EMP device, the man saves billions if lives including Batman's ad all he can say us "you let them do it". That aways irked me and the ending with the whole one man who beat you line is such a I've got a bigger duck than you moment it's cringeworthy.
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:21 PM   #578
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I don't think that's the case. It was a clash of ideology and Miller seems to side with Bruce, but the audience doesn't necessarily have to. You can and, in my opinion, should sympathize with Clark while understanding why Batman acts as he does and defeats Superman. It wasn't some kind of proof that Batman is a better character than Superman for the Batman fanboys to feel vindicated but a parable of sorts to explore where these characters would go.
But I don't think Superman is portrayed as that likeable in this book, he's cocky and arrogant, he interferes in the war and kills soldiers. Hes a puppet treated like a lap dog by the president "good boy" etc. It's not until he saves the world from the EMP device (which for some reason Bruce has a problem with. I'd love for someone to explain that one) and when he has sympathy towards Bruce when his heart is giving out, even though he's punching his face in that he becomes likeable and more like the true Superman.

Like I've said I think my main problems are with the legacy it's left and that's not Millers fault at all. It just seems to have created this fanboy base that use this book as a means to say Batman is better than Superman etc etc.

But anyway I just don't want to see a fight between the two get down to the dick measuring moment it becomes in TDKR. They did it so much better in Brave & the Bold and Superman's first two part appearance on the Batman.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:22 PM   #579
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:25 PM   #580
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I don't think Superman is the same as we've known him in the book at all. Superman dies abide by the law but we've seen plenty if times in the books when he doesn't agree with the law he'll fight against it.

I'm not entirely blaming the book or Miller like I said its else worlds not canon and I can accept him for the way he is in that story. I just don't want to see that version of Superman or Batman on the big screen cause I don't think at the fire if it that's who these characters are.
What should have Superman exactly done? Look at the way they responded to Batman. It is safe to assume that Superman couldn't have continued doing what he does without the government taking action and confronting him with physical force. It was a much wiser decision for him to not take that route that leads to pointless battles and potentially to pointless bloodshed. Plus, the story takes place an entire decade after the government banned superheroism. Knowing Superman, he probably tried everything he could to fight the law - journalism as Clark Kent, public speeches as Superman, discussions with the president himself, etc. Eventually he had to reach the point where he realized that the only way to prevent a pointless battle between him and the government and to continue doing what he does is to work for the government. At no point in the book does Superman even imply that he is 100% behind the idea. Both him and Bruce did not want to fight each other in the first place due to always having been close, despite disagreeing on their methods. It was just the thing they had to do due to the circumstances they were in.

For the record, I don't want to see that version of Batman and Superman on the big screen either. What I want to see is the brotherly relationship. In the canon Post-Crisis continuity, despite them disagreeing on their methods and ways of doing things, Superman and Batman have always had a brotherly bond. Even in the comics and the JL cartoon, Superman's "death" affected Batman the most out of all the superheroes.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:26 PM   #581
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If this is truly MOS sequel with batman than Superman must be the one to save the day with the help do batman. Not the other way around.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:31 PM   #582
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But I don't think Superman is portrayed as that likeable in this book, he's cocky and arrogant, he interferes in the war and kills soldiers. Hes a puppet treated like a lap dog by the president "good boy" etc. It's not until he saves the world from the EMP device (which for some reason Bruce has a problem with. I'd love for someone to explain that one) and when he has sympathy towards Bruce when his heart is giving out, even though he's punching his face in that he becomes likeable and more like the true Superman.
Clark saves countless lives by diverting the nuke but Bruce chastises him because Superman could have prevented the whole thing had he been acting in the authority that he has, if he had stood up to the worldly authority like Batman did and get things done. It's reasonable that Superman would work for the government within the context of the setting but it still dilutes him and causes other problems, like the ones you mention. Earlier Bruce is quoted as saying that they, meaning the superheroes, have to be criminals because what they do is outside the law and technically against it. Bruce is criticizing Clark working for the government.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:31 PM   #583
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What should have Superman exactly done? Look at the way they responded to Batman. It is safe to assume that Superman couldn't have continued doing what he does without the government taking action and confronting him with physical force. It was a much wiser decision for him to not take that route that leads to pointless battles and potentially to pointless bloodshed. Plus, the story takes place an entire decade after the government banned superheroism. Knowing Superman, he probably tried everything he could to fight the law - journalism as Clark Kent, public speeches as Superman, discussions with the president himself, etc. Eventually he had to reach the point where he realized that the only way to prevent a pointless battle between him and the government and to continue doing what he does is to work for the government. At no point in the book does Superman even imply that he is 100% behind the idea. Both him and Bruce did not want to fight each other in the first place due to always having been close, despite disagreeing on their methods. It was just the thing they had to do due to the circumstances they were in.

For the record, I don't want to see that version of Batman and Superman on the big screen either. What I want to see is the brotherly relationship. In the canon Post-Crisis continuity, despite them disagreeing on their methods and ways of doing things, Superman and Batman have always had a brotherly bond. Even in the comics and the JL cartoon, Superman's "death" affected Batman the most out of all the superheroes.
Superman is such a force and a personality that he would stand for what's right. I'm not saying he doesn't agree to some sort of registration act but he sure as hell wouldn't go fighting in wars. But I do have my own ideas as to why Superman is the way he is in Millers book and for me I think he's lost everyone in his life i.e. The Kent's, Perry, Jimmy, Lois.

But anyway moving on yeah I just hope they do something better or more to my liking on the big screen.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:33 PM   #584
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^ Mark Waid knows how to do a darker Superman that's devoid of warmth, and still have an element of tragedy to him. KC is amazing

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:34 PM   #585
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Default Re: LA Times is reporting that WB will announce World's Finest movie for 2015 - Part

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Your occasional romps with Selina don't warrant a good excuse.
Sigh, I told Selina not to say anything. So much for that.

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^ Mark Waid knows how to do a darker Superman that's devoid of warmth, and still have an element of tragedy to him. KC is amazing
Just reread that today. Now THAT'S how you do an apocalyptic future story without making anyone look like a chump.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:53 PM   #586
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Default Re: LA Times is reporting that WB will announce World's Finest movie for 2015 - Part

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Well what if Batman is part of the process of solidifying him as Superman? I always under the impression that MOS 2 would handle the aftermath of the first film.

Superman's appearance creates concerns and skeptics, Batman being one of them. Superman has to adjust to his role as Earth's protector, deal with the world's reaction, and a vigilante who questions his role. It could all tie together, and do the job of introducing Batman for this new film universe.
Well I guess it would help on knowing as to what the main goal of this film is; to primarily move Superman's story forward or to just specifically highlight Superman's first encounter with the Dark Knight.

Well that, and I'd hate to see Superman having to earn Batman's approval in having to be a hero.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:04 PM   #587
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Default Re: LA Times is reporting that WB will announce World's Finest movie for 2015 - Part

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Saw this posted online and that does sound like a flow up to Man of Steel, details different of course:
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Taking a page from Azzarello's LEX LUTHOR: MAN OF STEEL series, you can have a newcomer Batman appear on the scene, start his work, only to be questioned by Superman. Suspicious of Superman's unlimited power, and a bit angry that Superman has been intruding on his Gotham City turf, Wayne sides with Luthor against him, and this builds toward a giant, DARK KNIGHT RETURNS-style brawl between Superman and Batman, where Batman humiliates Superman and teaches him some humility. But it becomes clear that Luthor is up to something worse than Wayne originally realized, and so Superman and Batman join forces to take the bigger evil down, and, in the process, gain a begrudging respect for one another.

So what you get is a pick-up from MAN OF STEEL with the growing anti-Superman sentiment, you set-up Batman without rehashing the origin story, and start laying the groundwork for JUSTICE LEAGUE.
This sounds pretty decent. I don't know about Batman teaching Superman humility--why would he need to learn--but I can see this brawl occurring and Superman coming close to winning and getting distracted, allowing Batman to get the victory, and then both realizing that Lex is playing them.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:09 PM   #588
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^ No on Batman getting the victory. Yes on Lex playing them, though I want Superman to realize it first. This seems like a weird idea, but I'd like it if Bruce thought Lex had a hidden life, but a heroic one, much like himself.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:11 PM   #589
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^ No on Batman getting the victory. Yes on Lex playing them, though I want Superman to realize it first. This seems like a weird idea, but I'd like it if Bruce thought Lex had a hidden life, but a heroic one, much like himself.
Not even a tainted victory? I'd like see it pushed to the point that Batman is truly beaten, and then Lex steps with some weapon and brings Superman down.

That's actually better than Batman getting the victory.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:15 PM   #590
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^ Yes! Batman things he has the upper hand and seemingly knocks him out, then he realizes that Superman was 'defeated' by a mysterious force. He then looks at Superman with guilt, and Batman uses his detective ability to approximate suspects, while Superman patrols the city in search of a villain. Or something

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:18 PM   #591
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Since it's happening I might as well get on board but one thing that bothers me is why bring back the same creative team for something this big? They proved through Man of Steel they can't really get it right. Critically the movie flopped and it's clear to see why when the General Audience is mixed. Terrible character development and pacing. All action and no feeling. Probably had a lot to do with the box office numbers being underwhelming.

I don't have the confidence that Goyer and Snyder will come up with something that is epic. Might be a good summer popcorn action movie but to transcend the movie genre not so much.

I don't want people to say it did better than batman Begins when the budget and marketing of that movie was severely lower. Plus ticket price inflation from 8 years ago, 3D and all these other forms of ticket pricing. (AVX, DBOX, IMAX). If this flops, it's going to destroy any future DC universe on film for a long long time.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:24 PM   #592
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Since it's happening I might as well get on board but one thing that bothers me is why bring back the same creative team for something this big? They proved through Man of Steel they can't really get it right. Critically the movie flopped and it's clear to see why when the General Audience is mixed. Terrible character development and pacing. All action and no feeling. Probably had a lot to do with the box office numbers being underwhelming.

I don't have the confidence that Goyer and Snyder will come up with something that is epic. Might be a good summer popcorn action movie but to transcend the movie genre not so much.

I don't want people to say it did better than batman Begins when the budget and marketing of that movie was severely lower. Plus ticket price inflation from 8 years ago, 3D and all these other forms of ticket pricing. (AVX, DBOX, IMAX). If this flops, it's going to destroy any future DC universe on film for a long long time.
The general audience generally liked it for the most part. It was only a flop critically, and I have my own theories as to why that was the case (mainly critics having nostalgic ties to what they believe is Superman and not believing that a Superman story could have more of a serious tone).

MOS had a few story and pacing problems but acting, characterization of the characters, and the meaning/message behind Superman were by no means problems. All of those things were spot on. That being said, I am worried about the story and pacing in the film since not only is Goyer being let loose by himself again but Snyder is joining him as a co-writer.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:25 PM   #593
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^ No feeling?

Sure, that's your opinion. I would argue that there's plenty of emotion near the first half, and not so much in the second half.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:33 PM   #594
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The general audience generally liked it for the most part. It was only a flop critically, and I have my own theories as to why that was the case (mainly critics having nostalgic ties to what they believe is Superman and not believing that a Superman story could have more of a serious tone).

MOS had a few story and pacing problems but acting, characterization of the characters, and the meaning/message behind Superman were by no means problems. All of those things were spot on. That being said, I am worried about the story and pacing in the film since not only is Goyer being let loose by himself again but Snyder is joining him as a co-writer.
I'm feeling pretty much the same way your feeling. The only thing that gives me hope is that the negativity was pretty loud. So they can improve considering it's the same property. And both guys seem very excited about doing it.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:36 PM   #595
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I'm feeling pretty much the same way your feeling. The only thing that gives me hope is that the negativity was pretty loud. So they can improve considering it's the same property. And both guys seem very excited about doing it.
Not to mention that the criticims are consistent and general. There aren't as many people shouting "Joker is permawhite!" as there are people saying "not enough character development, the action was overextended, the dialog was ham-fisted and not organic enough" etc. If these filmmakers LEARN from their mistakes, then they can insure quality for the sequel, or at least, more ambitious and interesting mistakes

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:40 PM   #596
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Default Re: LA Times is reporting that WB will announce World's Finest movie for 2015 - Part

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The general audience generally liked it for the most part. It was only a flop critically, and I have my own theories as to why that was the case (mainly critics having nostalgic ties to what they believe is Superman and not believing that a Superman story could have more of a serious tone).

MOS had a few story and pacing problems but acting, characterization of the characters, and the meaning/message behind Superman were by no means problems. All of those things were spot on. That being said, I am worried about the story and pacing in the film since not only is Goyer being let loose by himself again but Snyder is joining him as a co-writer.
Yes. I don't understand why some people are saying the GA was mixed/hated this film.
It was favorably pretty well liked by the GA.
Some people on here act as if the GA was vehemently against this film like they were with GL or SupReturns

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:42 PM   #597
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Not to mention that the criticims are consistent and general. There aren't as many people shouting "Joker is permawhite!" as there are people saying "not enough character development, the action was overextended, the dialog was ham-fisted and not organic enough" etc. If these filmmakers LEARN from their mistakes, then they can insure quality for the sequel, or at least, more ambitious and interesting mistakes
Can you explain to me what was wrong with the dialogue. I'm lost on that one.

Beside the he's kinda hot line.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:43 PM   #598
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Curious, are there any batman-oriented characters that you guys would like to see pop up with Batman in this film? I think Alfred is a given.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:43 PM   #599
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Curious, are there any batman-oriented characters that you guys would like to see pop up with Batman in this film? I think Alfred is a given.
Keep it at Alfred and Bruce.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:45 PM   #600
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I've said it once and I'll say it again, David Goyer is a great ideas man but he's only a "fine" screenwriter. While I liked his begins and MOS scripts, they left some things to be desired. Goyer constructs fine dialogue but most of it isn't anything overly memorable or great.
There is a reason I can remember more of Joker and Bane's dialogue compared to Ra Ghul and Zod's dialogue. *Though Ghul and Zod had a few pretty BA lines*


I doubt it at this point but I would love if sometime in the near future, there were rumors swirling that Jonathan Nolan was doing an under the table, quick rewrite/touch-up*

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