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Old 07-21-2013, 06:20 PM   #976
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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I'm mostly unhappy because they're bringing the same team back who failed to see so many glaring issues in MOS. I really hope they at least bring a better and smarter writer in.
Yeah. All of MOS' problems can be sourced back to either Snyder or Goyer. Snyder writing in an capacity is a worry. Goyer really needs to work with a strong writer to properly flesh out his ideas.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:26 PM   #977
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

^ There's a person of interest that tends to get left out a lot

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:28 PM   #978
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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^ There's a person of interest that tends to get left out a lot

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:30 PM   #979
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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^ There's a person of interest that tends to get left out a lot
He's too old.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:34 PM   #980
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

No, not Jim

I was talking about the series' creator. Besides, what's so bad about a late 40s (by the time the sequels come out) Alex Ross Batman?

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:10 PM   #981
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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^ There's a person of interest that tends to get left out a lot
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Me too. And I agree.

In fact, I won't be surprised if that happens. There's a lot riding on this film.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:13 PM   #982
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

^ I think Jonah has some of the 'logic' aspects of Chris, but with a slight edge on the humanity side of things, IMHO. He should basically rewrite Goyer's next script, or at least supervise it like crazy

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:14 PM   #983
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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^ I think Jonah has some of the 'logic' aspects of Chris, but with a slight edge on the humanity side of things, IMHO. He should basically rewrite Goyer's next script, or at least supervise it like crazy
Jonah's a better writer than Chris, IMO.

I'd rather Snyder and Goyer come up with the story, and Jonah write the script.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:30 PM   #984
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

A studio out to make money they may be but surely either Goyer, Snyder or WB know the fan reaction of MoS and don't simply look at the box office and think "hmmm that seemed to work... same again folks!" surely they know that the writing was one of the biggest criticisms of MoS. I hope they give it to somebody to go over it or Nolan himself tells Snyder that he is there to read the script if needs be.

This is by far is the biggest thing of this project. I am beyond stoked about the announcement but the only solid problem I have is the writing, the Goyer-isms "RELEASE THE WORLD ENGINE" and "either you die or do" need to be gone as does some of the **** poor exposition. MoS literally stops at a point and a character asks "what is this? I don't understand!" then Hamilton proceeds to tell every point of what the world engine is doing. Look at any screenwriting book and it tells you how to put exposition in a script with subtlety or at least more subtlety than that!

However, one thing the films needs to carry on with is the tone. Superman has just found a new home so I understand that he should be brighter but Batman and Superman are tortured characters in this universe (well presuming but come on... it's Batman) the serious tone also seperates this from the Avengers.

A Superman/Batman film is a big big move on the Marvel/DC chessboard and if it ***** up Marvel could be saying checkmate in 2015 to this current generation of comic book films.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:47 PM   #985
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

I really think if Jonah was going to be involved he would have been announced in the press release yesterday. Goyer is 'proven' to WB now. Same with Snyder. That's all they see. I'm surprised that Christopher Nolan is the Executive Producer still to be honest.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:50 PM   #986
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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I really think if Jonah was going to be involved he would have been announced in the press release yesterday. Goyer is 'proven' to WB now. Same with Snyder. That's all they see. I'm surprised that Christopher Nolan is the Executive Producer still to be honest.
Me too. I swore I remember him saying in an interview he would never be involved with another Batman film, in any capacity. *though to be fair this is more MOS2 featuring batman but I digress*

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:51 PM   #987
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

What does the executive producer do? To me that says **** all

I'm now waiting for interviews for Interstellar for the inevitable question "how much do you know about Man of Steel 2?" followed by "That's Zack's film" from Nolan.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:52 PM   #988
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

^ Jonah's a Batman comics fan, though. He should at least be asked for MOS2.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:55 PM   #989
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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What does the executive producer do? To me that says **** all

I'm now waiting for interviews for Interstellar for the inevitable question "how much do you know about Man of Steel 2?" followed by "That's Zack's film" from Nolan.
Here is going to be Nolan's involvement in MOS2:WF
He's going to let Zack and WB use his name in promo and trailers while he sits back and cashes his fat check from WB.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:56 PM   #990
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

The Nolan as Executive Producer to me is just an excuse for Warner to still have the title card "From Zack Snyder... and Executive Producer Christopher Nolan, Director of The Dark Knight Trilogy".

However, on the other side that may give the impression that this film is connected to that trilogy

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:57 PM   #991
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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Here is going to be Nolan's involvement in MOS2:WF
He's going to let Zack and WB use his name in promo and trailers while he sits back and cashes his fat check from WB.
Haha! I literally just posted a comment like this just before I saw yours.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:59 PM   #992
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

If anything they would have announced Jonah as the co-writer, instead we get Snyder. Hopefully it'll get a pass by a really good writer once it's finished. I'm not optimistic though. The thing is too. With shooting starting next year, there's not alot of time to polish and shine. I guess we just hope for the best.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:10 PM   #993
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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The Nolan as Executive Producer to me is just an excuse for Warner to still have the title card "From Zack Snyder... and Executive Producer Christopher Nolan, Director of The Dark Knight Trilogy".

However, on the other side that may give the impression that this film is connected to that trilogy
Yep. Title cards will be 'From by Zack Snyder Director of Man of Steel' and 'Produced by Christopher Nolan Director of The Dark Knight Trilogy'. That's for sure. I can predict the first teaser now. Some voiceover, 'Nothings been the same since Metropolis, you've changed things forever... yadda yadda yadda'. Shots of Superman, Lois, Perry, in between flashes of those title cards. Then ending with something like 'Who can possibly take you down?' and we get an ending flash of Batman similar to the first teaser of Batman Begins. Cue the GA being aware of this movie, and huge excitement and expectation.

I totally understand why WB made this move. I honestly think it stands a huge chance against the Avengers. That said the quality of the actual movie, resting very squarely on the shoulders of the writing, will determine it's legs and final B.O. return. And Joss Whedon > Snyder/Goyer.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:25 PM   #994
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

Yeah Whedon can do ensemble films in his sleep, Goyer can barely pass 120 consistent minutes IMO. I thought the writing of Watchmen was quite good seeing as it was a dialogue heavy film (I cant check now and am not sure if Snyder had any involvement in writing or not).

One thing is for sure though. The trailers will be mesmerizing.

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Psychic though? That sounds like something out of science-fiction.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:38 PM   #995
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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Yeah Whedon can do ensemble films in his sleep, Goyer can barely pass 120 consistent minutes IMO. I thought the writing of Watchmen was quite good seeing as it was a dialogue heavy film (I cant check now and am not sure if Snyder had any involvement in writing or not).

One thing is for sure though. The trailers will be mesmerizing.
Haha so true. The trailers will be phenomenal. We'll just be left wondering what happened to that film come release.

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Old 07-21-2013, 08:50 PM   #996
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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Obviously he hasn't actually stopped caring. No one, at least I hope no one, literally thinks that he magically stopped caring in that fight scene with Zod. No one has actually made that argument.

The problem they have is that in that scene, he doesn't show any concern until they land in the train station. Yes, Zod's genocide plan was a nightmare to him. Yes he has been established as someone who cares. And yet in the fight with Zod he doesn't show any concern for the collateral damage the fight is causing. It's inconsistent, it betrays the artifice of filmmaking, and it makes people feel like he doesn't care. Yes, logically, we know that he should care, but a big part of movies is how information is presented to the audience and how it makes them feel. If you have to go back and say "Well, he clearly was opposed Zod's plan so even if he didn't seem like he cared in the Zod fight logically he must still care" then the movie isn't doing it's job properly.

Really, the fact that they established him as someone who clearly cares earlier in the film proves my point, not yours. If it makes us feel like he doesn't care when it's been established that he does, then the movie ****ed up.
No, all it takes is a little effort form the audience to put two and two together.

Example:
Batman is obsessed with life yet he didn't stop and re-affirm this during the battle for Gotham in which many people were dying due to his chase scene and dropping like flies all around him during the street fight.

He had to know his assault was going to cost lives...probably has something to do with the fact that the situation is bigger than him. The question is how does the audience still understand that he's still the batman that is obsessed with saving lives? Simple, they can put two and two together.

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It's not clouding people's perspective at all. A line like that is the smart thing to put into a scene like that, and a line like that would have dissuaded a lot of people's discomfort while also detracting absolutely nothing from the film. That's the key point, it would have helped for a lot of people and it wouldn't have hurt anything. That's why people bring it up. It's the thing they had a problem with done better.
If all it took was a line then it couldn't have been that big a deal.

Example, if superman starting killing people with his own hands and laughing out loud as he did so, that might take some plot exposition(ie he's been brain washed).
If your dilemma such that a simple line utterance would have fixed the whole thing, it probably couldn't have been that big a deal.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:04 PM   #997
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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No, all it takes is a little effort form the audience to put two and two together.
But if the movie makes it necessary for the audience to do that then the movie missed something.

Do you really not see it as a flaw when a character who's supposed to be very deeply caring doesn't seem to have much of a reaction to being surrounded by 9/11 imagery on all sides?

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Example:
Batman is obsessed with life yet he didn't stop and re-affirm this during the battle for Gotham in which many people were dying due to his chase scene and dropping like flies all around him during the street fight.

He had to know his assault was going to cost lives...probably has something to do with the fact that the situation is bigger than him. The question is how does the audience still understand that he's still the batman that is obsessed with saving lives? Simple, they can put two and two together.
Different contexts. A seasoned urban commando leading a rebel assault against enemy occupiers is different then a newbie superhero suddenly finding himself waist deep in 9/11 imagery. Especially because the battle of gotham had nowhere near the level of destruction that the end fight in MoS had.

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If all it took was a line then it couldn't have been that big a deal.

Example, if superman starting killing people with his own hands and laughing out loud as he did so, that might take some plot exposition(ie he's been brain washed).
If your dilemma such that a simple line utterance would have fixed the whole thing, it probably couldn't have been that big a deal.
That's not how movies work. Just the tiniest thing can completely change a scene or even a whole film. One line of dialogue, one properly framed shot, one musical cue, one little anything can be that extra nugget of information that completely changes how an audience reacts to a scene. That's why a movie can be saved in editing, as is often said. Getting just the right line reads and just the right pacing can bring a mediocre or even bad script to life. A movie is made up of thousands of tiny things coming together in subtle ways, not big interchangeable components.

Fact is, in the third act buildings were imploding all around Superman and people were likely dying by the thousands and he didn't seem to care. As he was established to be someone who does care about people, this is an inconsistency. A line of dialogue about the damage Zod is causing and a reaction shot of horror to the carnage around him would have been in keeping with his prior characterization and would have solved any sense of confusion or discomfort that scene caused.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:05 PM   #998
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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Yeah Whedon can do ensemble films in his sleep, Goyer can barely pass 120 consistent minutes IMO. I thought the writing of Watchmen was quite good seeing as it was a dialogue heavy film (I cant check now and am not sure if Snyder had any involvement in writing or not).

One thing is for sure though. The trailers will be mesmerizing.
Last I heard Goyer was responsible for the begins script, which in many circles is considered gold, in the realm of cbm scripts.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:06 PM   #999
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Last I heard Goyer was responsible for the begins script, which in many circles is considered gold, in the realm of cbm scripts.
He had Nolan as a co-writer on that, though. Most Goyer critics agree that he's good with ideas and actually turns out good stuff when he has a co-writer.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:23 PM   #1000
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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He had Nolan as a co-writer on that, though. Most Goyer critics agree that he's good with ideas and actually turns out good stuff when he has a co-writer.
He will have a co-writer for WF.

Snyder.

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