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Old 07-21-2013, 05:47 PM   #26
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Having an Ultron movie come out a few months before an Ant-Man movie, and then having that Ant-Man movie involve a Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne that no longer has ANY connection to Ultron....THAT'S what's not making sense.
Yes it does if the story their writing has an old Hank Pym who is not associated with the Avengers whatsoever and Scott Lang is the protag of the movie. Furthermore, having an outside force come in and be the catalyst for the supposedly "internal conflict" the Avengers are supposed to deal with in a sequel makes no sense.

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Or maybe you'd prefer that Ant-Man be about Scott Lang entirely? Hell, might as well just dump the facade and eliminate Hank and Janet from the MCU and the Avengers entirely.

Way to go, Joss.
Ha, it's funny how fickle some of you are. First you're praising the guy and saying he's the best ever and as soon as he does something that you disagree with he sucks, has destroyed characters, ruined the movie etc all before you've even seen any of it.

Just because Hank doesn't have the same character arc from the comics does not make this entire thing for not. You're blinded by not wanting change, are being irrational and, like I said, you're just plain not making sense at this point.

And anyway, if you want to blame someone, blame Edgar Wright for likely making Hank Pym old and putting off an Ant-Man movie for years, not Joss. Joss probably wrote his script informed about what Wright was planning, and missing Ant-Man is not going to stop him from using the villain he believes best fits what he wants to do.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:21 PM   #27
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I'm not too optimistic about AoU. Hank Pym isn't defined by Ultron, but Ultron is arguably defined by Hank Pyn (to an extent). The relationship between the two characters has been accepted as essential parts of either character's history for decades. I can't help but feel more than a bit sceptical about Joss possibly changing the story of Ultron's character possibly too far, cutting out another entirely and possibly forcing someone else in Hank's role (like Tony Stark and/or Bruce Banner).

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:32 PM   #28
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I am very dissapointed at the news that Hank Pym won't create Ultron. It is not so much a problem with the film itself or with the characters in the story themselves. The problem with Ultron being created by Tony/the Avengers is that they robbed Pym of his best story. It's why he feels the constant need to change and try to improve his powers and role. Why he has to be up to the challenge of stopping the thing he created. It's also what leads to some of his big hang-ups, why his marriage nearly feel apart, why he had a drinking problem for a while. Ultron without Hank is like Loki without Thor.

Unless Hank builds Ultron off-screen (which doesn't appear to be the case based on the teaser with Tony's helmet turning in Ultron), I am nowhere near as excited as I was to see Hank on the big screen. He was one of those characters that I always thought had a lot of potential despite being mocked by many people.

I wonder how people would have reacted if Marvel wasn't the one doing it. If Sony or Fox did this, the whole internet would have been furious.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:39 PM   #29
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I think we should just chill, and wait and see.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:40 PM   #30
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Wow, 2 pages already. I didn't mean to cause a panic. Just an issue I hope Marvel, Whedon and Wright are considering.
And I never heard Pym wont be the creator, nothing has been stated as such. Just makes me worry because Pym hasn't been introduced yet and the Avengers movie is going to have a villain created by someone who in the comics we all knew before hand.

Joss Whedon and Edgar Wright are two smart and great directors/writers. I am sure they can work something out to please both the movie going audience and the die hard comic fans.
Avengers showed that I think. It followed the plot of the original Avengers comic while still having a great new story.
I am just wondering how its going to happen. I could see Stark taking on the role Pym has in the comics, creator of the AI that represented his dark side and went crazy killing. But I would hope that doesn't happen and I don't see Joss or Edgar not seeing how that would upset their core fan base. (I hear SHIELD the pilot episode had inside comic references that the general public wouldn't get.)
I can also see Hank Pym being presented as a regular scientist who used to work with Stark, Banner, and SHIELD, before falling from grace and now sees how they are world heroes and famous and everyone loves them and he secretly doesn't love them. Creates Ultron who becomes his dark side, and then helps the Avengers taken him down,
and then in his own Ant Man movie by Edgar Wright its sort of Pym becoming Ant Man as a way to make up for his mistakes with Ultron. Something he could never undo, but maybe now he can save others sort of thing.

So it could go like this, unknown scientist creates evil robot Ultron that he helps the Avengers stop, then he becomes a well known superhero called Ant Man.

I think it could still happen like in the comics, just maybe not in the exact order the comics had like we would hope.


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Old 07-21-2013, 06:46 PM   #31
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Where are the news that Ultron won't be created by Hank Pym?

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:49 PM   #32
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Wow, 2 pages already. I didn't mean to cause a panic. Just an issue I hope Marvel, Whedon and Wright are considering.
And I never heard Pym wont be the creator, nothing has been stated as such. Just makes me worry because Pym hasn't been introduced yet and the Avengers movie is going to have a villain created by someone who in the comics we all knew before hand.

Joss Whedon and Edgar Wright are two smart and great directors/writers. I am sure they can work something out to please both the movie going audience and the die hard comic fans.
Avengers showed that I think. It followed the plot of the original Avengers comic while still having a great new story.
I am just wondering how its going to happen. I could see Stark taking on the role Pym has in the comics, creator of the AI that represented his dark side and went crazy killing. But I would hope that doesn't happen and I don't see Joss or Edgar not seeing how that would upset their core fan base. (I hear SHIELD the pilot episode had inside comic references that the general public wouldn't get.)
I can also see Hank Pym being presented as a regular scientist who used to work with Stark, Banner, and SHIELD, before falling from grace and now sees how they are world heroes and famous and everyone loves them and he secretly doesn't love them. Creates Ultron who becomes his dark side, and then helps the Avengers taken him down,
and then in his own Ant Man movie by Edgar Wright its sort of Pym becoming Ant Man as a way to make up for his mistakes with Ultron. Something he could never undo, but maybe now he can save others sort of thing.

So it could go like this, unknown scientist creates evil robot Ultron that he helps the Avengers stop, then he becomes a well known superhero called Ant Man.

I think it could still happen like in the comics, just maybe not in the exact order the comics had like we would hope.
this. The movie is two years away. He said Pym won't be in the mix. When talking about Avengers 2. And he said it's a new origin story for Ultron.....that doesn't mean the seeds couldn't be planted in cap 2, like Fiege's comments seem to highly suggest.

we'll see, but with an ant-man movie coming out, there will likely be SOME relationship. If it works for the MCU, whatever. But I am sick of things revolving around Tony Stark as well. I'll expect the worst and hope for the best...but I think there is a bit of overreacting. Joss' words can be interpreted another way if looked at, and Marvel has thrown us a red herring before. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to Ultron than just a creation in avengers...there's got to be a reason Pym won't be there...I mean.

Avengers 2 Ultron WITHOUT Pym, then ant-man a few months later...come on now.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:02 PM   #33
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You know, Pym not being involved with Ultron is a shame, because it really is his best story, but sometimes in the process of adapting a story into another medium things don't work out and you have to shift things around. It's the nature of the game.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:06 PM   #34
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Avengers was such an amazing movie, I am willing to see what Whedon has in mind. I love Pym so on that front, disappointing, BUT let's not forget what we got before, and that Whedon already has shown what he can do if you let him. I believe in this project pretty much until I see the movie.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:08 PM   #35
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Default Re: Hank Pym?

Honestly, I never liked Hank Pym so him not being in the new movie is a positive from my vantage point.

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:15 PM   #36
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could they have ultron in A2, then tell his origin/creation story in Ant-man in flash backs, or have it as a prequel-ish story?

it might be interesting to have him just show up with not back story first, then have his story told of where he came from after in a different movie

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Old 07-21-2013, 07:27 PM   #37
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This is why I didn't want Ant-Man in the 1st Avengers. Without ULTRON no one seems to care about the character.Let's not forget he has a movie coming after the Avengers film what was that going to be about? Him creating Ultron?? BORING!!!

From the reactions I've seen today NO ONE actually cares about Ant-Man. They just want him because of stuff he did in the comics (was an original member or created Ultron). No one can tell me any exciting rogues he has? There's no way he was facing Ultron is his solo film, so people wanted him in Avengers 2 so they would bother seeing his solo film.

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Old 07-21-2013, 09:54 PM   #38
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This is why I didn't want Ant-Man in the 1st Avengers. Without ULTRON no one seems to care about the character.Let's not forget he has a movie coming after the Avengers film what was that going to be about? Him creating Ultron?? BORING!!!

From the reactions I've seen today NO ONE actually cares about Ant-Man. They just want him because of stuff he did in the comics (was an original member or created Ultron). No one can tell me any exciting rogues he has? There's no way he was facing Ultron is his solo film, so people wanted him in Avengers 2 so they would bother seeing his solo film.

Here's the situation:
Hank Pym is *not* a solo superhero. Yes, he and Janet had an occasional cameo thing going in a Marvel anthology comic in the early 60s along with a bunch of other superheroes, sci-fi heroes, Western heroes, horror heroes, detective heroes and other pulps (some of whom went onto greater fame; most of whom didn't). But they weren't major heroes. So Stan Lee elected to give Giant-Man (yes, Giant-Man; this Ant-Man stuff only represents a handful of issues) and Wasp some exposure in the new Avengers comic in 1962, and the rest is history.

What Hank Pym is famous for is this: being an Avenger. Period. He's not a solo hero, so a solo film was always a bad idea. But he *is* famous for.....say it with me....being an Avenger. He was, is, and always shall be CORE Avenger. Doing the Avengers without Hank Pym is like doing the A-Team without B.A. Baracus, or Justice League without Batman.

So people, including The Goddamn Joss-Man himself, marginalize him, say he's not important, say he's not needed.

Joss just lost his geek cred card entirely. Any Avenger fan knows the score. And Joss doesn't know the score.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:00 PM   #39
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Here's the situation:
Hank Pym is *not* a solo superhero. Yes, he and Janet had an occasional cameo thing going in a Marvel anthology comic in the early 60s along with a bunch of other superheroes, sci-fi heroes, Western heroes, horror heroes, detective heroes and other pulps (some of whom went onto greater fame; most of whom didn't). But they weren't major heroes. So Stan Lee elected to give Giant-Man (yes, Giant-Man; this Ant-Man stuff only represents a handful of issues) and Wasp some exposure in the new Avengers comic in 1962, and the rest is history.

What Hank Pym is famous for is this: being an Avenger. Period. He's not a solo hero, so a solo film was always a bad idea. But he *is* famous for.....say it with me....being an Avenger. He was, is, and always shall be CORE Avenger. Doing the Avengers without Hank Pym is like doing the A-Team without B.A. Baracus, or Justice League without Batman.

So people, including The Goddamn Joss-Man himself, marginalize him, say he's not important, say he's not needed.

Joss just lost his geek cred card entirely. Any Avenger fan knows the score. And Joss doesn't know the score.


Oh yeah. That is a totally reasonable comparison.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:14 PM   #40
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Oh yeah. That is a totally reasonable comparison.

Hank Pym has been in every iteration of the Avengers from the very beginning, including Ultimates, including Mighty, including Initiative, including West Coast. He is an integral part of the team, and omnipresent in Avengers comics.

How is that an unreasonable comparison, in your opinion? Keeping in mind that my statement isn't about powersets, or popularity, or rank. Just about importance to the actual team and actual comic title.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:18 PM   #41
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It's weird how everyone keeps comparing this to "x without Batman".

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:28 PM   #42
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It's weird how everyone keeps comparing this to "x without Batman".
Try this one: it's like making a story about Frankenstein's Monster without Dr. Frankenstein.

We've been over this many, many times. The only thing that separates Ultron's story from any other uberkiller robot is the psychodrama of Ultron's Oedipus complex with Hank and Janet. That's what's driven Ultron for five decades, even on up to the present-day Age of Ultron story arc (that doesn't have anything to do with the movie title).

So now....we get any other uberkiller robot.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:50 PM   #43
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It not as if Black Widow and Hawkeye were just added to the Avengers comics yesterday. They've been prominent Avengers for decades, they've served on numerous different Avengers teams, they've both LEAD Avengers teams in the past. BW/Hawkeye are classic Avengers (it's not like they put Luke Cage/Jessica Jones in the movie). So the argument that BW/Hawkeye aren't "real Avengers" which I've hear a lot, doesn't make ANY sense to me. Putting them in the first movie made sense both in the comics history and how the MCU had been built.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:57 PM   #44
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Try this one: it's like making a story about Frankenstein's Monster without Dr. Frankenstein.

We've been over this many, many times. The only thing that separates Ultron's story from any other uberkiller robot is the psychodrama of Ultron's Oedipus complex with Hank and Janet. That's what's driven Ultron for five decades, even on up to the present-day Age of Ultron story arc (that doesn't have anything to do with the movie title).

So now....we get any other uberkiller robot.
He can have that with someone else.

If Ant-Man was as important to The Avengers as Batman was to the JL then the reaction to the lack of Ant-Man in TA2 would be MUCH worse than it is now.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:07 PM   #45
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There is still a Dr. Frankenstein, it's just Tony Stark this time.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:22 PM   #46
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Having an Ultron movie come out a few months before an Ant-Man movie, and then having that Ant-Man movie involve a Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne that no longer has ANY connection to Ultron....THAT'S what's not making sense.

Or maybe you'd prefer that Ant-Man be about Scott Lang entirely? Hell, might as well just dump the facade and eliminate Hank and Janet from the MCU and the Avengers entirely.

Way to go, Joss.
The way I see it is that the MCU as it currently constructed does not really permit Pym to be a central character. If Ultron is to be in the MCU it needs to have some connection to one of the main heroes of the Avengers, such as Tony Stark, and to suddenly introduce Dr. Pym and expect him to have such a pivotal role in the Ultron saga would not have made sense. I know that it goes against the comics lore, but I think by not having an Ant Man movie before Phase II (and Edgar Wright opting to use Lang instead of Pym) pretty much sealed the fate, since Thanos was never going to appear in Avengers 2 due to his importance and power level in the Marvel Universe.

However, if there is anyone I'd trust to do Ultron justice sans Pym, it'd be the writer of Astonishing X-Men, Joss Whedon. I believe that in the end, he will make a movie that even the Ultron purists would like, and we should not judge the product before we see it.

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Old 07-22-2013, 02:38 AM   #47
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Like Sam was saying, Hank Pym and Janet's whole careers revolve around the Avengers. And if you've read the comics in almost every single iteration Hank and Janet are integral parts of the team.

To basically take Hank Pym and turn him into some old hero from the 60's is just not justice in my book. Hell I wouldn't even mind Wright making Scott Lang the Ant-Man of the MCU as long as he also made Hank Pym Giant-Man of the MCU. And taking away creating Ultron would be like taking away the death of Uncle Ben from Spider-Man. You can not care about Hank Pym all you want but creating Ultron and the subsequent consequences of that are what drive Hank and what makes Hank the hero he is.

And if we get an old 60's only era Hank Pym then that means we'll not get Janet or worse, a Janet that has little connection to Hank and I for one wouldn't want to see these two characters changed so drastically.

I won't judge Avengers AoU until I know more about it and can see it and Ant-Man with my own eyes. It's possible that Whedon and Wright have something planned that'll do justice to all the characters (and God help us I hope they do). But as of now, Whedon and Wright are treading thin territory with me (and this does not negate anything Whedon's done before this).

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Old 07-22-2013, 02:40 AM   #48
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The way I see it is that the MCU as it currently constructed does not really permit Pym to be a central character. If Ultron is to be in the MCU it needs to have some connection to one of the main heroes of the Avengers, such as Tony Stark, and to suddenly introduce Dr. Pym and expect him to have such a pivotal role in the Ultron saga would not have made sense. I know that it goes against the comics lore, but I think by not having an Ant Man movie before Phase II (and Edgar Wright opting to use Lang instead of Pym) pretty much sealed the fate, since Thanos was never going to appear in Avengers 2 due to his importance and power level in the Marvel Universe.

However, if there is anyone I'd trust to do Ultron justice sans Pym, it'd be the writer of Astonishing X-Men, Joss Whedon. I believe that in the end, he will make a movie that even the Ultron purists would like, and we should not judge the product before we see it.
It's not even that we're Ultron purists. We just want to see justice done to Ultron and Hank and one without the other is not justice.

I just hope Whedon remembers his own words (your sig).

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Old 07-22-2013, 02:52 AM   #49
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Honestly, I never liked Hank Pym so him not being in the new movie is a positive from my vantage point.
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You know, Pym not being involved with Ultron is a shame, because it really is his best story, but sometimes in the process of adapting a story into another medium things don't work out and you have to shift things around. It's the nature of the game.
Once again, where are you people getting these news?

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Old 07-22-2013, 03:07 AM   #50
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Once again, where are you people getting these news?
Edgar Wright's first script was the be about a 60s era Hank Pym and then jump to the present and Scott Lang steals the Ant-Man suit and takes over and becomes Ant-Man.

With Feige saying Ultron's origin have to be changed and Hank not being in A2 it's assumed that Wright probably hasn't changed his script and therefore Hank isn't important in the MCU (and as a result Janet probably won't be too).

But there's always the chance that Wright did change his script to fit into the MCU more but given that his first Ant-Man book was the Scott Lang stealing the Ant-Suit one it's likely Hank still isn't that important.

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