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Old 07-16-2013, 09:42 AM   #126
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

Bryan Singer spends two movies building up to the arrival of the Phoenix, and how it was the manifestation of Jean's powers evolving beyond even mutants. Then in X3, all of a sudden the Phoenix is a half-assed multiple-personality that's never been even slightly hinted at in the other films, and Jean spends most of the second half just standing around. Rogue's character development form the first two films being chucked out the window for a horrible love triangle. Magneto's big plan being unbelievably stupid (why does he want Jean again, exactly)? He never really says. Cyclops being killed offscreen 15 minutes into the film. Beast, Angel, Rogue, and Kitty being criminally underused. Wolverine's healing factor is strong enough to take the full wrath of the Phoenix and survive (a police officer's sidearm knocked him out in X2, Rogue nearly killed him twice in X1). The list goes on and on.

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Old 07-20-2013, 02:25 PM   #127
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

^ I agree, I watched X2 last night and the phoenix scenes gets me sad and hype at the same time cause you can't help, but to think what could have been. Singer & Co could have took X3 in a few directions; intro. the Hellfire Club (leave Magneto out), Genosha plotline, Friends of Humanity, Trask/Sentinels and this could've been connected to Phoenix, a mutant that has evolved far beyond anything anyone can comprehend. Heck I believe that Days of Future Past could've been the next storyline, while still connecting it to Phoenix. She's the reason why the Sentinels are up and running because mutants are becoming more powerful and she goes all Dark phoenix.

It just makes me wonder what this franchise could have been 10 yrs ago, and have people comparing the Avenger to X-Men instead of the other way around

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Old 07-20-2013, 05:42 PM   #128
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

A lot of people complain about Spiderman 3 because they feel Venom was wasted. To name a few, this film squanders Phoenix, Juggernaught, Cyclops, Rogue, Angel, Colossus, Psylocke, Multiple Man, and the Morlocks; many of which are killed off or cured, destroying chances to explore them further later on. It's staggering really.

Even the cure plot is shafted to some extent, though it gets more attention than Jean does.

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Old 07-20-2013, 10:08 PM   #129
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

I watched X3 last night and despite its flaws, it was still entertaining.

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Old 07-21-2013, 03:55 PM   #130
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

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Originally Posted by Loki882 View Post
Bryan Singer spends two movies building up to the arrival of the Phoenix, and how it was the manifestation of Jean's powers evolving beyond even mutants. Then in X3, all of a sudden the Phoenix is a half-assed multiple-personality that's never been even slightly hinted at in the other films, and Jean spends most of the second half just standing around. Rogue's character development form the first two films being chucked out the window for a horrible love triangle. Magneto's big plan being unbelievably stupid (why does he want Jean again, exactly)? He never really says. Cyclops being killed offscreen 15 minutes into the film. Beast, Angel, Rogue, and Kitty being criminally underused. Wolverine's healing factor is strong enough to take the full wrath of the Phoenix and survive (a police officer's sidearm knocked him out in X2, Rogue nearly killed him twice in X1). The list goes on and on.
Two movies building up? More like two scenes in X2.


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A lot of people complain about Spiderman 3 because they feel Venom was wasted. To name a few, this film squanders Phoenix, Juggernaught, Cyclops, Rogue, Angel, Colossus, Psylocke, Multiple Man, and the Morlocks; many of which are killed off or cured, destroying chances to explore them further later on. It's staggering really.

Even the cure plot is shafted to some extent, though it gets more attention than Jean does.
In a movie where you have dozens of mutants you'll have some of them in a secondary spot. Any attempt to give them equal importance is destined to fail.

But the problems with SM3 were far from only wasting Venom. To start off, there weren't as many important characters in SM3 as it was the case of SM3. But then again, Raimi's constant attempt of humor were just horrifying.

But the cure was very well developed and finally it took the themes of discrimination and fear of difference back to the stage after X2 reduced them to a mere incidental reference.

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Old 07-22-2013, 07:47 PM   #131
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

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Originally Posted by Angamb View Post
Ratner and Fox mainly cared for Wolverine and Storm. The other x-men werent interesting enough to make them shine

How is that any different from X-Men and X2?

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Yeah we all have opinions just saying most people didn't think the film was as good as you did. Anyway stumbled upon this and thought it was interesting, the movie sounds a lot better than what we got:

http://screenrant.com/bryan-singers-x-men-3-4-story-rob-34720/

Notice the actual inclusion of Cyclops and satisfying ending for Jean.

Alright, I just have to ask this: If his idea was so great then why did he run off to make Superman Returns? And how did he think ripping off Watchmen was going to work?


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Old 07-23-2013, 12:50 AM   #132
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

X1 Storm hardly spoke so...

If the X3 script was so good why did Matthew Vaughn run off and do Kick-Ass? Since we're asking irrelevant questions... and how's that plot anything like Watchmen?

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Old 07-23-2013, 12:51 AM   #133
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

Time-constraints?

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Old 07-23-2013, 10:15 AM   #134
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

I was reading some reviews of The Wolverine and in most of them , the critics refer to Jean as "Wolverine's lover" .
Cyclops was thrown to the side like wet dog turds and now most people think of Jean and Wolvy as an item..Sigh..
To be fair, Singer began this, but X3 ran it into the ground.

Also Wolvy should not be crying and giving inspirational speeches to the team.

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Old 07-23-2013, 09:00 PM   #135
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

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X1 Storm hardly spoke so...

If the X3 script was so good why did Matthew Vaughn run off and do Kick-Ass? Since we're asking irrelevant questions... and how's that plot anything like Watchmen?
I could say the same thing about X-Men Days of Furture Past, but we are not talking about Matthew Vaughn here.

Look, I'm not defending X-Men 3 here. I think all three of these films are pretty weak when it comes to being "X-Men" films. The thing I don't get is that X3 pretty much followed the tone and feel of the first two films and for some reason fans still hate it. It's not like Batman Forever where they changed everything up.

I swear that if X3 had "Directed by Bryan Singer" at the front of it fans would love it. It seems he can do no wrong in the fan community. I just got done watching the X-Men panel from Comic Con. The most interesting part was when Anna Paquin spoke about who she would play if she wasn't playing Rouge. She said Wolverine unless Rogue could fly. Guess what? Rouge can fly, she just can't fly in the X-Men films because Bryan Singer made a bad choice. That character has never been given the right treatment on film and I can't forgive Singer for that. And just to take it back to Matthew Vaughn for a second, he NEVER got his due for the best X-Men film to date. Fans still give all the credit to Singer.

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“Ultimately she kind of becomes that cosmic force that Phoenix is known to be, she choose to leave Earth and become a god, or at least a higher level of intelligence, and she goes into the cosmos possibly to kick-start life somewhere else… The final scene for me would have been her telling Cyclops or her telling the X-Men ‘I’ll be watching.’ Essentially she becomes a god.”
You don't see how this part is exactly like the end of Watchmen?


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Old 07-23-2013, 09:39 PM   #136
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

Hell to the no wouod I except his X3 if it was like Ratners. Don't bunch me in to fanatical people. I agree about Vaughn though he revitalized a series. I think the reason people give due respect to Singer is because how aganst all odds and restrictions from Fox he made some great films. Not to mention he waw a producer of FC.

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Old 07-24-2013, 03:11 PM   #137
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

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Hell to the no wouod I except his X3 if it was like Ratners. Don't bunch me in to fanatical people. I agree about Vaughn though he revitalized a series. I think the reason people give due respect to Singer is because how aganst all odds and restrictions from Fox he made some great films. Not to mention he waw a producer of FC.
That's kind of the point I was making though. It's not really Ratners X-Men, it's still Singer's X-Men. I personally don't see anything in X3 that defines it as being made by Brett Ratner. It's like Fox gave him a set of rules that were meant for Singer's universe and Ratner got lucky with a few of the characters. The biggest reason I say that is because of what Vaughn did with FC. FC WAS Vaughn's film and it shows.

Trust me, I'm not grouping you in with anyone. I don't know if I would call Singer's films "great". I think you're the first person I've seen give Vaughn the credit.

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Old 07-28-2013, 11:15 PM   #138
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I don't know if I've ever assigned a numerical grade to TLS before, but it's a 7 out of 10 for me. It's not without its problems, but it's certainly not the trainwreck popular sentiment says it is, either (something I'm fairly certain I've said in the past and probably at least once already in this very thread)

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Old 07-29-2013, 01:49 AM   #139
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

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I don't know if I've ever assigned a numerical grade to TLS before, but it's a 7 out of 10 for me. It's not without its problems, but it's certainly not the trainwreck popular sentiment says it is, either (something I'm fairly certain I've said in the past and probably at least once already in this very thread)
I think when you look at films that were disappointing like Spider-Man 3, X-Men Origins: Wolverine or Iron Man 2 this wasn't that bad really. As you say it does have problems but its certainly not bad, I'd agree on a 7 out of 10.

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Old 07-29-2013, 01:56 AM   #140
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^ Two of those movies (Spidey 3 and O:W) would get 7 out of 10 ratings from me as well, and IM2 would get an 8. They are all not nearly as bad as people think they are.

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"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
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"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
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"There is no "supposed to be." It's an adaptation, a word that literally means change. Why bother making a new version if it doesn't offer a fresh approach?" - Christopher L. Bennett
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:44 AM   #141
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

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That's kind of the point I was making though. It's not really Ratners X-Men, it's still Singer's X-Men. I personally don't see anything in X3 that defines it as being made by Brett Ratner. It's like Fox gave him a set of rules that were meant for Singer's universe and Ratner got lucky with a few of the characters. The biggest reason I say that is because of what Vaughn did with FC. FC WAS Vaughn's film and it shows.

Trust me, I'm not grouping you in with anyone. I don't know if I would call Singer's films "great". I think you're the first person I've seen give Vaughn the credit.
Your reply wasn't aimed at me but The Last Stand was 'Ratnerised' quite a bit though. Quick edits and fast camera shots that made it feel like too much was happening too quickly without any time for actors to act or for subtleties and subtext to be portrayed.

He allowed horrid dialogue to remain in the script and he didn't get the best out of McKellen and Stewart. He also chose the option for Rogue to take the cure, overruling the producers who wanted her not to be cured.

So there are many things he could have done better. But there are also things he did very well.

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Old 08-01-2013, 07:04 AM   #142
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

I don't rank X3 too far below X1 and X2. They do a fine job keeping the tone of it's predecessors. But it's not great. Most of it's upsides are directly outweighed by a very obvious shortcoming.

- Ellen Page is an amazing choice for Shadowcat. But they snarled her up in some stupid love triangle with people she had no business love triangling with.
- This version of the Phoenix Force was pretty damn cool in my opinion. But Jean's death and Xavier's "death" made some sense but why Cyclops??
- We get see to Beast, Angel and Juggernaut. But then we see unnecessary additions like Callisto and Spike that take up screentime for no good reason.

So that's kinda the case with most of the movie. A lot of bittersweet stuff. That ends up being mostly bitter.

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I was reading some reviews of The Wolverine and in most of them , the critics refer to Jean as "Wolverine's lover" .
Cyclops was thrown to the side like wet dog turds and now most people think of Jean and Wolvy as an item..Sigh..
To be fair, Singer began this, but X3 ran it into the ground.

Also Wolvy should not be crying and giving inspirational speeches to the team.
In my opinion (and I know it's unrelated) is that doing this to Cyclops is on par with giving Ultron to Stark in Avengers 2. The GA will be in love with the idea. But to comic fans it's just a huge disappointment.

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Old 08-05-2013, 03:21 AM   #143
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Of course it makes sense that she would WANT to.

But why would you write a movie in which the villain succeeds in killing the leader of the X-Men? And then have NO ONE react to it... Have nothing come of it whatsoever?

The death of Cyclops is basically the single thing that triggers Jean to take over long enough to allow herself to be stopped. Cyclops, even in death, is the only thing in the movie that allows Jean to overcome Phoenix.

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I wouldn't hate the movie so much if I didn't know how poorly the production came together. I'd write it off as a mediocre, disappointing end to a promising franchise. But, Fox had the opportunity to have something special and ruined it out of sheer spite.

Bryan Singer offered to come back to the franchise after Superman Returns. Instead, Fox fired him and replaced him immediately. They rushed the X3 to production, even though there was no finished script. They hired Matthew Vaughn to direct, then fired him when he suggested they take more time to get the story right.

The reason Cyclops was killed was because he agreed to act in Superman Returns. Rather than delay X-Men for him, or schedule his days around Superman, they wrote him off. End of story.

Then, they hired Brett Ratner because he's a hitman of a director. He honestly did an admirable job given the circumstance, but Fox could have done so much better if they hadn't been so petty with getting revenge on Singer, and using X-Men 3 to compete with Superman.
That's not smart business to postpone your $200 million project for one guy. Business has to move on. They didn't release X-Men 3 when they did to get revenge on Singer, they did it because they have a business to run.

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Old 08-05-2013, 03:41 AM   #144
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X1 Storm hardly spoke so...

If the X3 script was so good why did Matthew Vaughn run off and do Kick-Ass? Since we're asking irrelevant questions... and how's that plot anything like Watchmen?
You do realize that Matthew Vaughn was responsible for the X-Men 3 script, right?

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I could say the same thing about X-Men Days of Furture Past, but we are not talking about Matthew Vaughn here.

Look, I'm not defending X-Men 3 here. I think all three of these films are pretty weak when it comes to being "X-Men" films. The thing I don't get is that X3 pretty much followed the tone and feel of the first two films and for some reason fans still hate it. It's not like Batman Forever where they changed everything up.

I swear that if X3 had "Directed by Bryan Singer" at the front of it fans would love it. It seems he can do no wrong in the fan community. I just got done watching the X-Men panel from Comic Con. The most interesting part was when Anna Paquin spoke about who she would play if she wasn't playing Rouge. She said Wolverine unless Rogue could fly. Guess what? Rouge can fly, she just can't fly in the X-Men films because Bryan Singer made a bad choice. That character has never been given the right treatment on film and I can't forgive Singer for that. And just to take it back to Matthew Vaughn for a second, he NEVER got his due for the best X-Men film to date. Fans still give all the credit to Singer.



You don't see how this part is exactly like the end of Watchmen?
1.) Rogue's characterization, while not the popular Southern Belle, smash and bash persona we know from the cartoon, is still a very accurate depiction to how she's been written in the comics for years. Also, we already have one indestructible, invincible mutant in Wolverine. Do we really need 2?

2.) The reason why I don't give credit to Vaughn for X-Men: First Class is because he's the man responsible for most of what's wrong with X-Men: The Last Stand, and he would have been responsible for even worse elements of the film had he stuck around. I don't believe for a second that Vaughn would have made a better X-Men 3 after hearing some of the ideas he had for it.

There's also the fact that Vaughn is more interested in making "Matthew Vaughn" films than X-Men films. In all the interviews for X-Men: First Class, all he could talk about was how he wanted to make a James Bond film, and it shows. X-Men: First Class, while great, and probably my favorite of the series, and maybe even so much as my favorite movie of all time, is also very juvenile and immature in many areas. A deleted scene has a cross-dressing Magneto, the film itself already has Beast groping a mannequin, the movie is loaded with played out cliches like spinning booths into secret rooms, breakaway submarine headquarters, CIA agent Moira McTaggert stripping down to her lingerie to enter the Hellfire Club, and horribly cheesy montages of maps blowing up, or nuclear bombs going off as Russian and American flags fly on either side. It was Bryan Singer who was in charge of the story, and I imagine was the one who kept the story as focused on the X-Men as it actually was. Read Vaughn's interviews when he was on board for X-Men 3 - he had little to no respect for Singer and his films. If Singer's influence wasn't present on X-Men: First Class, I actually fear for what we would have gotten. I truly, honestly feel that X-Men: First Class is great in spite of Matthew Vaughn, not because of him. I fear for the X-Men 3 we would have gotten with him in charge, and I fear for the X-Men: First Class we would have gotten if Singer wasn't on board to have his influence over the project.

So glad Vaughn is gone, and I hope he won't be anywhere near another X-Men project.

I'm no Singer fanboy. Don't get me wrong, I love Singer, I love his X-Men films, and I love the direction that he took with them, grounding them in reality, making them character driven, and focusing on the characters and the world around them. But in many ways, I also feel that Singer held the franchise back from what it could have been. I love X-Men and X2, but no matter what people say about X-Men: The Last Stand, I will always love that movie (and even X-Men Origins: Wolverine) for allowing these characters to open up a little bit and not be so restrained.

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Old 08-05-2013, 08:06 PM   #145
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Cyclops, even in death, is the only thing in the movie that allows Jean to overcome Phoenix.
Don't forget Logan establishing that he would die for her.

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Old 08-05-2013, 09:52 PM   #146
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Vaughn and Singer are equally responsible for First Class being the film that it is, and it therefore makes no sense to attribute the film's quality - either positively or negatively -to only one of them. If you like the film, Singer and Vaughn are both responsible for it being a quality film, and if you don't like the film, both Singer and Vaughn are responsible for it being a sub-par film.

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:13 PM   #147
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The death of Cyclops is basically the single thing that triggers Jean to take over long enough to allow herself to be stopped. Cyclops, even in death, is the only thing in the movie that allows Jean to overcome Phoenix.
Good point. People act like the impact of Cyclops' death wasn't felt, but that simply isn't true. It had ramifications. And the reunion/death sequence itself was quite well done.

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Old 08-11-2013, 10:54 AM   #148
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

I don't think X3 had the same tone as the first two. It looked right but the tone was gone. It didnt feel like a serious SciFi story about discrimination anymore...all those elements were gone.


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Old 08-11-2013, 05:03 PM   #149
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

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Originally Posted by The Guard View Post
Good point. People act like the impact of Cyclops' death wasn't felt, but that simply isn't true. It had ramifications. And the reunion/death sequence itself was quite well done.
I liked that scene, but I thought it had some poor dialogue.

"How is it possible?"

"I don't know"

"I wanna see your eyes"

"I can control it now"

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Old 08-11-2013, 05:07 PM   #150
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Default Re: X-Men 3...seriously fans/people--WHY all the hate?

See, I said this on the DOFP board...

How is that "poor" dialogue? It's just people talking the way people would talk. Not every line in a movie has to be some overwrought piece of prose.

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